KHL Expansion Part VII

[vorky]

Beyond financials, the state of Jokerit juniors ia mess of sorts. All the most talented kid leave after B-juniors either to other junior teams, other Liiga clubs or North American junior leagues because there's no clear path to the senior team and A.juniors have been a flaming turd for years.

Of course Jokerit needs a junior team in the MHL and a farm team in Liiga. Ask your federation and Liiga why it is not possible.

 

[Albatros]

Of course Jokerit needs a junior team in the MHL

What would this bring? The Finnish junior league is as good and travel is much easier.

and a farm team in Liiga. Ask your federation and Liiga why it is not possible.

No Liiga club has any interest in serving as a KHL farm team.

 

[vorky]

As I said, if you want to use selective memory when it's you that have reported 90% of the "Russian source said this", then be my guest, it probably makes you sleep better at night.

You do not try to understand what is going on, or at the very least you do a very poor job at doing so. You only see things from your point of view, and your point of view is that it's impossible not to care about the KHL, something like "why would these stupid swedes not want to join this amazing league, that must be impossible, so they are lying and secretly want to join, they just deny it".

I've seen you in several KHL threads in the swedish section, and apart from Darth Yoda (if you remember him) EVERY SINGLE SWEDISH POSTER HAS SAID THE EXACT SAME THING: Vorky, you are wrong, we do not care about KHL, we do not want our teams to join KHL, if our team joined KHL I would stop supporting it. But you do not understand this.

I don't know how to better explain it at this point. We've been through this for years now, and the outcome is always the same. The swedish posters say one thing, and you keep on repeating what you always say.

If you want me to stop posting in this thread it's very simple: Stop discussing possible expansion to Sweden. It won't happen anyways, so drop the subject and my only interest here will be gone.

I understand the Swedish hockey mentality very well. You can be calm.

Your point is that Swedish fans do not care about the KHL. We have heard it many times, no need to repeat it again and again. And to be harsh, at the end of a day, nobody will ask Swedish fans if they want a KHL team in their city. That is my point. Even with your 51% in place. Or do you think that the KHL´s expansion is consulted with a fanbase of a club? If I remember, there was a revolt of fanbase/fan-club, post factum, in Slovan, Jokerit. And?

I know it is so much funny for you, but I will ask again - what is a function of the Crowns? If they were amateurs, they would disappear after the famous presser. They tried, they failed. End of story. Instead, they are active. Why? I do not know, I can only guess. No way, they are such lunatics to develop hockey in Estonia & Baltics. I see only two explanations now, A) they are a cover for something else, B) they are serious about the KHL. If you see any other explanation, tell me. And who is behind them? You know, such a project needs around 20 mil EUR per year. What Swede is ready to finance it? What Swede has a connection to the KHL to secure the financing? I know only one. Perhaps, you know more.

Of course, I can stop discussing Swedish expansion. Does this stop the guys doing their behind-the-doors job?

Yes, I reported it. And? I just collect all available informations. What is wrong about it? I do not say all rumors are ultimate true, but it is useful to collect the informations. Not my problem that you believe every report.

 

[Jonimaus]

I understand the Swedish hockey mentality very well. You can be calm.

Your point is that Swedish fans do not care about the KHL. We have heard it many times, no need to repeat it again and again. And to be harsh, at the end of a day, nobody will ask Swedish fans if they want a KHL team in their city. That is my point. Even with your 51% in place. Or do you think that the KHL´s expansion is consulted with a fanbase of a club? If I remember, there was a revolt of fanbase/fan-club, post factum, in Slovan, Jokerit. And?

I know it is so much funny for you, but I will ask again - what is a function of the Crowns? If they were amateurs, they would disappear after the famous presser. They tried, they failed. End of story. Instead, they are active. Why? I do not know, I can only guess. No way, they are such lunatics to develop hockey in Estonia & Baltics. I see only two explanations now, A) they are a cover for something else, B) they are serious about the KHL. If you see any other explanation, tell me. And who is behind them? You know, such a project needs around 20 mil EUR per year. What Swede is ready to finance it? What Swede has a connection to the KHL to secure the financing? I know only one. Perhaps, you know more.

Of course, I can stop discussing Swedish expansion. Does this stop the guys doing their behind-the-doors job?

Yes, I reported it. And? I just collect all available informations. What is wrong about it? I do not say all rumors are ultimate true, but it is useful to collect the informations. Not my problem that you believe every report.

I don't know what the function of Crowns is, and I'm not even sure we can call it a Swedish project anymore since they seem to be trying to join the Estonian hockey league now?
At first people were guessing they were trying to check the interest in Sweden, but honestly now I have no idea, in my eyes they should have disbanded due to the reaction they got, but they seem to have some super odd plans I can not understand.

I would say the whole "Crowns will be a swedish KHL team" chapter should be closed. They tried, they failed, someone else can try again if they want to, but Crowns should be considered a failed deal.

But if the KHL wants to place a team in Sweden without swedish support behind it, I mean, be my/our guest?

I'm not saying you reporting anything is wrong. You report what you hear/see, that's fine, if something you report is . But with all your reports you more than anyone here would know that almost all of your sources are russian, not swedish.

 

[vorky]

I don't know what the function of Crowns is, and I'm not even sure we can call it a Swedish project anymore since they seem to be trying to join the Estonian hockey league now?
At first people were guessing they were trying to check the interest in Sweden, but honestly now I have no idea, in my eyes they should have disbanded due to the reaction they got, but they seem to have some super odd plans I can not understand.

I would say the whole "Crowns will be a swedish KHL team" chapter should be closed. They tried, they failed, someone else can try again if they want to, but Crowns should be considered a failed deal.

But if the KHL wants to place a team in Sweden without swedish support behind it, I mean, be my/our guest?

I'm not saying you reporting anything is wrong. You report what you hear/see, that's fine, if something you report is . But with all your reports you more than anyone here would know that almost all of your sources are russian, not swedish.

I guess only Crowns understands what is their mission.

I know what are sources of informations which I post here. General information like the KHL would like to expand to Sweden is sourced in Russia. You do not even need a source to know it. All concrete informations like Malmo/AIK/Crowns were started by Swedish journalists, the Russian media just translated it. And of course, they asked the KHL officials if it is true or false. But, once again, original source was from Sweden. And that is interesting, because other countries rumors, I mean concrete teams/cities, are sourced by Russian media or league´s officials.

 

[Jussi]

Of course Jokerit needs a junior team in the MHL and a farm team in Liiga. Ask your federation and Liiga why it is not possible.

It's not the federation but simply not possible as has been exlained many times before. Even CEO Kohonen said way back when that it's not logistically possible to have a team in MHL because 17-20 year olds have either school or military obligations and that eliminates travelling for them. It'd also be too expensive for Jokerit. Jokerit junor teams are also a separate entity (Jokerit Ry) from the KHL team and hold the rights for the logo. A farm team in Liiga is not happening because Liiga (Finnish federation doesn't control Liiga) and the clubs themselves don't want to be branded as a "farm team" because it would alienate sponsors and fans.

 

[Toro2017]

Of course Jokerit needs a junior team in the MHL and a farm team in Liiga. Ask your federation and Liiga why it is not possible.

You don't need to ask federation or Liiga about it, because it is perfecly clear. Farm team in Liiga does not give anything of value to Liiga and in worst case scenario it would decrease the value of the product. Liigas last tv-deal was about 15M€ per year. The new one is rumored to be 23M€ per year, so if russians want a farm team for Jokerit (in Liiga), it would probably cost them atleast another 10M€ per year in addition to the about 10M€ they already give Jokerit every year. And that possible MHL team is also basicly a matter of money. If somebody is ready to pay enough, almost anything is possible.

 

[vorky]

You don't need to ask federation or Liiga about it, because it is perfecly clear. Farm team in Liiga does not give anything of value to Liiga and in worst case scenario it would decrease the value of the product. Liigas last tv-deal was about 15M€ per year. The new one is rumored to be 23M€ per year, so if russians want a farm team for Jokerit (in Liiga), it would probably cost them atleast another 10M€ per year in addition to the about 10M€ they already give Jokerit every year. And that possible MHL team is also basicly a matter of money. If somebody is ready to pay enough, almost anything is possible.

That is one option.

Another option would be to have Jokerit in the Liiga as everyone wants. Like everyone wants Slovan back in Slovak league. Of course, both teams would be a farm teams of their KHL parent. I understand that the Liiga would be not a fan of it, because of the product value .. on the other hand, they would get Jokerit back. In Slovakia, nobody would have a problem if Slovan farm team, under Slovan´s brand, playing Slovak league.

My point is that the Liiga needs to accept reality. Or do they want to fight against Jokerit for next decade/century? How will the Liiga benefit from it?

E: I looked at the Liiga´s attendance. It was 5200 in 12/13 & 4200 in 17/18. Everyone knows why.

 

[Jussi]

That is one option.

Another option would be to have Jokerit in the Liiga as everyone wants. Like everyone wants Slovan back in Slovak league. Of course, both teams would be a farm teams of their KHL parent. I understand that the Liiga would be not a fan of it, because of the product value .. on the other hand, they would get Jokerit back. In Slovakia, nobody would have a problem if Slovan farm team, under Slovan´s brand, playing Slovak league.

My point is that the Liiga needs to accept reality. Or do they want to fight against Jokerit for next decade/century? How will the Liiga benefit from it?

E: I looked at the Liiga´s attendance. It was 5200 in 12/13 & 4200 in 17/18. Everyone knows why.

And thus they wouldn't accept it. They don't want a farm team in the league. It wouldn't matter if it carried the Jokerit name if it still was a farm team.

As for AVERAGE attendance, of course it shows when the biggest arena CURRENTLY in the country goes away but so what? Everyone knows the average attendance is down because there are smaller arenas in the league. But, that is about to change when the new arenas in Helsinki, Tampere, Turku (all three over 10K capacity) and Jyväskylä are finished. Oulu might also see a new arena in the future.

 

[Toro2017]

That is one option.

Another option would be to have Jokerit in the Liiga as everyone wants. Like everyone wants Slovan back in Slovak league. Of course, both teams would be a farm teams of their KHL parent. I understand that the Liiga would be not a fan of it, because of the product value .. on the other hand, they would get Jokerit back. In Slovakia, nobody would have a problem if Slovan farm team, under Slovan´s brand, playing Slovak league.

That's the only viable option. Ofcourse some people want Jokerit back in Liiga, but nobody wants a Jokerit farm team in Liiga and it would not make attendance number to go up. Or do you thing that Jokerit fans want to buy double the amount of tickets, than before? They already give their (KHL game) tickets away cheaper than for example HIFK does in the same market area. So they should basicly let people in for free, for the games of that farm team. And even then, why would Jokerit fans want to go to those games? There will not be the best players of their team.

My point is that the Liiga needs to accept reality. Or do they want to fight against Jokerit for next decade/century? How will the Liiga benefit from it?

As I told you in some previous message, Liiga got a new tv-deal and it is rumored to be 8M€ higher per year, than the previous one. So if Jokerit can not bring that new 8M€ to the table, then why on earth would Liiga want some farm team, that could decrease the value of their product?

E: I looked at the Liiga´s attendance. It was 5200 in 12/13 & 4200 in 17/18. Everyone knows why.

Everybody in Finland knows that last year ruutu.fi gave Liiga product to consumers with the price of 15€ per month. For example for HIFK fan that is cheaper than one single game (with the cheapest tickets availbe) in Nordis. So no wonder that the attendance number went down last year.

 

[Rcknrollkillnmachine]

Jokerit farm team I doubt would be competetive which means a lifeless product on the ice which nobody would fancy watching once the initially novelty wore-off bar maybe IFK fans; drubbings by their fiercest rivals gets dull after a while. A no-go idea.

 

[Albatros]

The current Jokerit farm team Kiekko-Vantaa attracts about 400-500 spectators per home game in Mestis, one of the weakest in the league despite decent facilities and market size.

 

[alko]

In Slovakia, nobody would have a problem if Slovan farm team, under Slovan´s brand, playing Slovak league.

I disagree. Many many people here would have a big problem, if Slovan B team will be in our Extraliga. Slovan B team is not Slovan. The hate will be much higher against them.

 

[vorky]

I disagree. Many many people here would have a big problem, if Slovan B team will be in our Extraliga. Slovan B team is not Slovan. The hate will be much higher against them.

Are you talking about fans of other teams? Yes, they hate Slovan and always will. Read statements of SZLH/Extraliga officials how they miss a team from Bratislava, how they miss Slovan´s brand. They can talk whatever they wants, but at the end of a day they would approve Slovan´s participation in Slovak league.

 

[Albatros]

The federation could have Orange 20 play in Bratislava if they really wanted a team there.

 

[vorky]

The federation could have Orange 20 play in Bratislava if they really wanted a team there.

You know, there is a difference between Orange 20 & Slovan.

 

[Albatros]

I thought you said that they miss a team from Bratislava. There's also HC Bratislava in the second league, I'm sure they'll get promoted in no time if there's sufficient interest for them.

 

[Jussi]

The current Jokerit farm team Kiekko-Vantaa attracts about 400-500 spectators per home game in Mestis, one of the weakest in the league despite decent facilities and market size.

They've been losing fans over their farm team ventures as well. Before they became an official farm team for Helsinki clubs and the Korean adventure, at times they thought they could challenge for the Mestis title (not really but a semifinal place at least).

 

[alko]

Are you talking about fans of other teams? Yes, they hate Slovan and always will. Read statements of SZLH/Extraliga officials how they miss a team from Bratislava, how they miss Slovan´s brand. They can talk whatever they wants, but at the end of a day they would approve Slovan´s participation in Slovak league.

They need Slovan. Not Slovan B.

 

[vorky]

They need Slovan. Not Slovan B.

They would agree even with Slovan Z.

 

[alko]

They would agree even with Slovan Z.

Maybe. But the fans will hate it.

Fans from Slovan will always said: Hey, you won only against B team. Not our real Slovan.

Fans from other teams will be at least jealous that Slovan has money for 2 profi teams.

 

[vorky]

Maybe. But the fans will hate it.

Fans from Slovan will always said: Hey, you won only against B team. Not our real Slovan.

Fans from other teams will be at least jealous that Slovan has money for 2 profi teams.

I talk about officials.

Fans can think whatever they want, nobody will ask them if approve or not approve Slovan´s XY team in extraliga.

 

[alko]

I talk about officials.

Fans can think whatever they want, nobody will ask them if approve or not approve Slovan´s XY team in extraliga.

Actually you said "In Slovakia, nobody would have a problem if Slovan farm team, under Slovan´s brand, playing Slovak league.", so i thought we speak here generally.

 

[vorky]

Actually you said "In Slovakia, nobody would have a problem if Slovan farm team, under Slovan´s brand, playing Slovak league.", so i thought we speak here generally.

OK, that my statement was not clear. Sorry.

 

[lindelof]

@vorky you seem to be guy with a lot knowledge about the KHL. So I have a couple of questions;

Where do think the next expansion will be?
According to your earlier posts in this thread, Germany or Switzerland seem to be heavily tipped by you, why is that (in short) and where do you think the new teams will play (i.e which city)?

If the expansion took place in another location, which country do you is most likely?
I´ve read about as different locations as London, Uzbekistan (or at least some country close to it) and a second team in China. Odds on this?

Another thought of mine, how likely is the expansion to smaller countries as Estonia, Lithuania or Poland?
There has been some talk about expanding to these countries before but nowadays my understanding is that it´s quite unlikely due to the new format of the league, 24 teams and other (bigger) countries being prioritised. Anyways, is there an possibility that an expansion will take place in countries such as those I´ve listed above.

And then, one last question, will there be countries with 2 teams in the league? I´m thinking primarily of Kazakstan and Belarus. I think that China will get a second team sooner or later.

Lots of questions I know but it would be really appriciated if you answered these!