Speculation: Keeping Ck

[Pawnee Rangers]

I would at least consider this a reasonable reason. I don't know that I agree with that, though. I'd expect Tarasenko to produce more offense moving forward.



Well Kreider scores more goals than Panarin too, and has scored more goals than Zibanejad over the past 2 years, but both of those players are exponentially more important to our offense than Kreider is. So is Fox. It's not just about the raw goal scoring.

Kreider scores a lot of goals where other players have done a lot of the setting up of the play. That's not to say Kreider doesn't possess a unique skill set for putting himself into position for a rebound or deftly maneuvering his stick to get a deflection for a goal, but those types of goals are usually two-party affairs that require a pinpoint pass to be tipped or shot through traffic to be deflected. A snipe off the rush or from the circles like Tarasenko is capable of, is the much more hard to replicate type of goal, IMO.

I'm not saying I would expect Lafreniere to come in and score 40 goals, but.... I think he could do a lot of PP work that Kreider does and I don't expect that moving Kreider would mean a loss of 35 goals. I think a good portion of that production would be subsumed by guys like Laf and Kakko.

Since Tarasenko came on board, we are the highest scoring team in the east besides Boston. The value of having that balanced top 6 can't be understated. I don't want to go back to being three deep (four deep, once Othmann arrives) at LW, but having to play Vesey and Fast types in the top 9. You can say that losing Kreider leaves you with "what ifs and hopes," but the same is true if Tarasenko walks. We've seen what happens when we have Kreider but no legit top end RW. It's a mediocre offense. I'll take my chances seeing the flip side with BETTER replacement alternatives on hand, plus two prime assets.

If you are asking me how better to win the Cup, it's definitely Tarasenko over Kreider next year.

Bro, you're twisting yourself up in knots trying to downplay his production and contributions and it's getting ridiculous. Have fun screaming into the ether for the duration of his contract.

 

[mas0764]

Bro, you're twisting yourself up in knots trying to downplay his production and contributions and it's getting ridiculous. Have fun screaming into the ether for the duration of his contract.

How is anything I said there downplaying his production? Do you think he's more valuable than Panarin and Zibanejad and Fox?

Kreider is like the Johan Franzen on this team. Good player but not an indispensable one.

 

[NYRangers0723]

How is anything I said there downplaying his production? Do you think he's more valuable than Panarin and Zibanejad and Fox?

Kreider is like the Johan Franzen on this team. Good player but not an indispensable one.

Let me ask you something . Agenda aside if we dont have Kreider on this team last year how well do we do? This should be a barrel of laughs

 

[Leonardo87]

Kreider is a drafted home grown Ranger who had over 50 goals last year and is flirting with 40 goals this season. Guy should be getting more love, imo.

 

[mas0764]

Let me ask you something . Agenda aside if we dont have Kreider on this team last year how well do we do? This should be a barrel of laughs

How is that relevant? Our discussion is about next year and moving forward.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

How is anything I said there downplaying his production? Do you think he's more valuable than Panarin and Zibanejad and Fox?

Kreider is like the Johan Franzen on this team. Good player but not an indispensable one.

I think he's one of the most important players on the team, not just in goals but by how much space he creates for line mates and how he stretches the D out when he's on the ice. He's also tremendous on the forecheck. I think if you asked management and guys in the room, they would say the exact same thing. I've never sat here and ranked player importance but I'd say he's extremely critical to their success and that the lineup is noticeably worse when he's not in it. He's clutch AF in the post season and has scored a ton of big goals (led the team last year). So yeah, in his own way, he's just as important as those guys.

 

[NYRangers0723]

How is that relevant? Our discussion is about next year and moving forward.

It is relevant because you clearly undervalue him even though facts and stats prove you wrong but in your own words he isnt that important for this team. I mean you’re stating to sound ridiculous now

 

[mas0764]

I think he's one of the most important players on the team.

I never said he wasn't.

I've never sat here and ranked player importance but I'd say he's extremely critical to their success and that the lineup is noticeably worse when he's not in it. He's clutch AF in the post season and has scored a ton of big goals (led the team last year). So yeah, in his own way, he's just as important as those guys.

Well let me tell you for the record, then.

He's not as important as Panarin, Zibanejad or Fox.

And after having seen Kreider with no Tarasenko, and then Kreider with Tarasenko, and considering the holes in our lineup without each of them, respectively, I think we have the talent on hand/in the system to replace Kreider more easily.

 

[NYRangers0723]

I never said he wasn't.



Well let me tell you for the record, then.

He's not as important as Panarin, Zibanejad or Fox.

And after having seen Kreider with no Tarasenko, and then Kreider with Tarasenko, and considering the holes in our lineup without each of them, respectively, I think we have the talent on hand/in the system to replace Kreider more easily.

Oh brother….

 

[mas0764]

Kreider is not as important to the team as Fox, Panarin, or Zibanejad. If you don't agree with that you probably don't know what you're watching. I don't know how else to say it.

Like.... Val Nichuskin isn't as important as Nate MacKinnon. Jake Guentzel isn't as important as Sidney Crosby.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

I never said he wasn't.



Well let me tell you for the record, then.

He's not as important as Panarin, Zibanejad or Fox.

And after having seen Kreider with no Tarasenko, and then Kreider with Tarasenko, and considering the holes in our lineup without each of them, respectively, I think we have the talent on hand/in the system to replace Kreider more easily.

Into the ether...

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Kreider is not as important to the team as Fox, Panarin, or Zibanejad. If you don't agree with that you probably don't know what you're watching. I don't know how else to say it.

Like.... Val Nischuskin isn't as important as Nate MacKinnon. Jake Guentzel isn't as important as Sidney Crosby.

He does things those guys don't do. Those guys do things he can't do. It's a f***ing TEAM skippy. You need more than one player to win. Good teams have guys that do different things well. Kreider is THE BEST at what he does well. Do what he does for half a shift and report back how easy it is. And if you can't see that, this is hopeless.

 

[NYRangers0723]

Kreider is not as important to the team as Fox, Panarin, or Zibanejad. If you don't agree with that you probably don't know what you're watching. I don't know how else to say it.

Like.... Val Nichuskin isn't as important as Nate MacKinnon. Jake Guentzel isn't as important as Sidney Crosby.

They are all equally important in what they bring. You still seem pissed because they didn’t trade him in 2020 instead of being happy with the importance he brings and how he is s big piece in helping us win. I mean I like Tarasenko and would love to bring him back if the price is fair but again he has 17 goals this year so he is t exactly blowing CK out of the water lol. Plus it’s not like he plays the on the top PK unit too like Kreider does.

 

[lilphildub]

I think this discussion doesn’t matter anyway. If Tarasenko is a better player as Mas says, he will get as much if not more than Kreider. Kreider already took a hometown discount. Also, Kreider was a top playoff performer on this team ahead of “important” players like Panarin. Putting the puck in the net no matter how “easy” it looks is a skill and should not be downplayed. Or else we’d be able to put Jimmy Vesey in front of the net for an easy 35 goals.

 

[NYRangers0723]

I think this discussion doesn’t matter anyway. If Tarasenko is a better player as Mas says, he will get as much if not more than Kreider. Kreider already took a hometown discount. Also, Kreider was a top playoff performer on this team ahead of “important” players like Panarin. Putting the puck in the net no matter how “easy” it looks is a skill and should not be downplayed. Or else we’d be able to put Jimmy Vesey in front of the net for an easy 35 goals.

Yeah if what Kreider does was so simple then surely anybody would be able to do it. Being in fro t of the net isn’t fun because you take a lot of punishment and it takes a lot of concentration and coordination to be effective at screens and tips. This year Kreider isn’t gettiNg quite the bounces he got last year and he still has 35 goals so he must be doing something right again

 

[mas0764]

He does things those guys don't do.

Yes he does, and Lindgren does things that Fox doesn't do, but Fox is still more important.

Those guys do things he can't do. It's a f***ing TEAM skippy. You need more than one player to win. Good teams have guys that do different things well. Kreider is THE BEST at what he does well. Do what he does for half a shift and report back how easy it is. And if you can't see that, this is hopeless.

You are responding with generic platitudes that no one is debating.

Yes, all those things you just said there are true. The problem is, to build a team you have to make choices about which things you can live without and which things you can't. And which can be replaced cheaply and which can't.

Of course Kreider does things that no one else on the team can. The problem is, the same is true of Tarasenko.

Losing Kreider would sting but someone has to be lost this offseason. If Goodrow is the only guy they trade away, then that means Tarasenko probably walks in free agency.

You seem unwilling to debate the strengths and weaknesses of each and just keep insisting that Kreider is irreplaceable.

He's not irreplaceable. His loss would sting but you don't seem to want to admit that this offense was lacking substantially before Tarasenko arrived and we were three deep with top 9 LWs.

Then there's the fact that Tarasenko walking in free agency leaves you with nothing. Re-signing Tarasenko but trading Kreider gives you two premium assets (or more).

At the end of the day, Lafreniere is approaching readiness for that chippy net front greasy role, too. He is showing he can do some of that, so we would not be completely lacking in that department from our left wing group. Othmann can take his third line LW spot relatively soon, and perhaps Vesey in the interim until such time. We don't have another top 9 RW ready to go if Kakko has to be promoted to that role. Not interested in Vesey or Fast as our first line RW again, we've seen that, the results aren't good.

They are all equally important in what they bring.

Lol, no.

I mean I like Tarasenko and would love to bring him back if the price is fair but again he has 17 goals this year so he is t exactly blowing CK out of the water lol. Plus it’s not like he plays the on the top PK unit too like Kreider does.

They are each scoring 0.71 ppg.

 

[NYRangers0723]

Yes he does, and Lindgren does things that Fox doesn't do, but Fox is still more important.



You are responding with generic platitudes that no one is debating.

Yes, all those things you just said there are true. The problem is, to build a team you have to make choices about which things you can live without and which things you can't. And which can be replaced cheaply and which can't.

Of course Kreider does things that no one else on the team can. The problem is, the same is true of Tarasenko.

Losing Kreider would sting but someone has to be lost this offseason. If Goodrow is the only guy they trade away, then that means Tarasenko probably walks in free agency.

You seem unwilling to debate the strengths and weaknesses of each and just keep insisting that Kreider is irreplaceable.

He's not irreplaceable. His loss would sting but you don't seem to want to admit that this offense was lacking substantially before Tarasenko arrived and we were three deep with top 9 LWs.

Then there's the fact that Tarasenko walking in free agency leaves you with nothing. Re-signing Tarasenko but trading Kreider gives you two premium assets (or more).

At the end of the day, Lafreniere is approaching readiness for that chippy net front greasy role, too. He is showing he can do some of that, so we would not be completely lacking in that department from our left wing group. Othmann can take his third line LW spot relatively soon, and perhaps Vesey in the interim until such time. We don't have another top 9 RW ready to go if Kakko has to be promoted to that role. Not interested in Vesey or Fast as our first line RW again, we've seen that, the results aren't good.



Lol, no.




They are each scoring 0.71 ppg.

If you want to keep living in your fantasy world go right ahead but when you want to enter reality and facts let me know. We get it you’re not a Kreider fan and think he isn’t tyat inportant(even though stats and facts tell otherwise) but like I said before they aren’t trading him anytime soon so might as well suck it up and enjoy the ride

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Yes he does, and Lindgren does things that Fox doesn't do, but Fox is still more important.



You are responding with generic platitudes that no one is debating.

Yes, all those things you just said there are true. The problem is, to build a team you have to make choices about which things you can live without and which things you can't. And which can be replaced cheaply and which can't.

Lol, there's like 5 guys in the league that do what Kreider does, if that. He's the best net-front guy in the entire league. You think Laff is replacing that? And you conveniently keep ignoring the fact that he scored 97 goals the last two seasons. You think that's easily replaced? What planet are you living on?

 

[NYRangers0723]

Lol, there's like 5 guys in the league that do what Kreider does, if that. He's the best net-front guy in the entire league. You think Laff is replacing that? And you conveniently keep ignoring the fact that he scored 97 goals the last two seasons. You think that's easily replaced? What planet are you living on?

Either he is doing it on purpose because he is just pissed Kreider wasnt traded 3 years ago or he really is in LA LA Land lol

 

[Mandar]

Either he is doing it on purpose because he is just pissed Kreider wasnt traded 3 years ago or he really is in LA LA Land lol

you cant argue with an infinite loop.

 

[mas0764]

Lol, there's like 5 guys in the league that do what Kreider does, if that. He's the best net-front guy in the entire league. You think Laff is replacing that? And you conveniently keep ignoring the fact that he scored 97 goals the last two seasons. You think that's easily replaced? What planet are you living on?

Are you reading what I'm typing, or just making up your own strawmen to argue against?

I never said Lafreniere was "replacing," what Kreider does, to the extent that Kreider is "the best net front guy in the entire league." Setting aside for the moment whether that is true or not, I merely said Lafreniere has SOME of those abilities, I was not implying in the slightest that Lafreniere would score 97 goals in two seasons, I was merely implying that some of Kreider's slack in this regard could be picked up, it's not like we are barren. And it's just a fact that something from this current make up has to go, it can't be no one. We can't run back the exact same team. Who is replacing what Tarasenko does? Vesey? Fast? Come on. If they can replace Tarasenko's 0.71 ppg, then Lafreniere can replace Kreider's 0.71 ppg.

Yet for all this amazing skill Kreider has, he is not the engine that makes our offense go, and for all of his amazing goal scoring, we were middle of the pack offensively prior to Tarasenko's arrival, probably because we were playing with a gaping hole at 1st line RW.

So we can keep Kreider and go back to having a gaping hole at RW with too much depth at LW to make an impact, just like this year, or, we can sacrifice a little LW depth to better balance RW and also get back some prime assets. I know you suggested we "just sign Jesper Fast or put Vesey back there," but that doesn't really work.

This whole discussion is academic because unfortunately Kreider does have a NTC, but the genesis of this discussion is that I would still move Kreider if I could, and there are many good reasons to do so that have everything to do with putting a better team on the ice next very season.

 

[NYRangers0723]

Are you reading what I'm typing, or just making up your own strawmen to argue against?

I never said Lafreniere was "replacing," what Kreider does, to the extent that Kreider is "the best net front guy in the entire league." Setting aside for the moment whether that is true or not, I merely said Lafreniere has SOME of those abilities, I was not implying in the slightest that Lafreniere would score 97 goals in two seasons, I was merely implying that some of Kreider's slack in this regard could be picked up, it's not like we are barren. And it's just a fact that something from this current make up has to go, it can't be no one. We can't run back the exact same team.

Yet for all this amazing skill Kreider has, he is not the engine that makes our offense go, and for all of his amazing goal scoring, we were middle of the pack offensively prior to Tarasenko's arrival, probably because we were playing with a gaping hole at 1st line RW.

So we can keep Kreider and go back to having a gaping hole at RW with too much depth at LW to make an impact, just like this year, or, we can sacrifice a little LW depth to better balance RW and also get back some prime assets. I know you suggested we "just sign Jesper Fast or put Vesey back there," but that doesn't really work.

This whole discussion is academic because unfortunately Kreider does have a NTC, but the genesis of this discussion is that I would still move Kreider if I could, and there are many good reasons to do so that have everything to do with putting a better team on the ice next very season.

Look I like Tarasenko but you’re definitely pumping him up a bit too much. Yes he has made an impact but so did Andrew Coop and Frank Vatrano. That’s why you make those rental trades to add more depth to the lineup. Trading one if your best all around players still makes zero sense when you have cup aspirations

 

[mas0764]

Kreider and Tarasenko are very close this year.

Prior to this year (ie historically), Tarasenko is way better.

I think it's Kreider who is getting pumped up a bit too much.

He has 34 goals and 0.71 ppg. This idea that he's some elite, irreplaceable player is false. He's a good player, but Tarasenko walked in the door and our offense picked up dramatically.

I frankly think Tarasenko is a better, more impactful player. Though granted, Kreider does have a unique skill set. Tarasenko's edge doesn't show up on paper this year and in the analytics... but he's coming off an injury and from a situation he did not want to be in, and then coming to a team where he's had to integrate himself and learn new line chemistry on the fly. And with all that, he's basically very close to Kreider's output. They are even in ppg. And Kreider still gets more priority power play minutes (meaning, if you swap them on the PP, Tarasenko is probably clearly outproducing Kreider).

At worst, I would say they are roughly equal. They are the same age. Different in terms of roles, and positions, but similar levels of offensive skill.

Add in (hypothetically) freeing up some salary and two prime assets in return and it's a clear choice.

 

[NYRangers0723]

Kreider and Tarasenko are very close this year.

Prior to this year, Tarasenko is way better.

I think it's Kreider who is getting pumped up a bit too much.

He has 34 goals and 0.71 ppg. This idea that he's some elite, irreplaceable player is false. He's a good player, but Tarasenko walked in the door and our offense picked up dramatically.

I frankly think Tarasenko is a better, more impactful player. Though granted, Kreider does have a unique skill set. Tarasenko's edge doesn't show up on paper this year and in the analytics... but he's coming off an injury and from a situation he did not want to be in, and then coming to a team where he's had to integrate himself and learn new line chemistry on the fly. And with all that, he's basically very close to Kreider's output. They are even in ppg. And Kreider still gets more priority power play minutes (meaning, if you swap them on the PP, Tarasenko is probably clearly outproducing Kreider).

At worst, I would say they are roughly equal. They are the same age. Different in terms of roles, and positions, but similar levels of offensive skill.

Add in (hypothetically) freeing up some salary and two prime assets in return and it's a clear choice.

Kreider has double the amount of goals this year and plays on the PK and is one of the leaders of short handed goals. Last year CK had 52 goals and Tarasenko not quite lol. I get it you’re not a big CK fan and are a bigtime Tarasenko fan which is fine but gotta be a little fair. Plus it’s possible we can unload Goodrow and maybe fit Tarasenko in but he had to take a smaller deal which I don’t think he will which is why he us a rental. Still makes zero sense to get rid of one of your best players when you’re trying to win but I digress

 

[mas0764]

Kreider has double the amount of goals this year

I'm aware, but goals are not the only thing that matters on offense. Again, a guy like Panarin is way more impactful towards goals than Kreider who scores more than him. Kreider's total goals in comparison to Tarasenko's total goals does not mean we are better off with Kreider automatically.

Still makes zero sense to get rid of one of your best players when you’re trying to win but I digress

Yeah, this isn't any more true when you've said it the 6th time than the first.

We are getting rid of one of our best players either way. Either Tarasenko or Kreider. They are both one of our best players. They are essentially on the same tier of importance, ie, more important than bottom sixers like Goodrow or Vesey, less important than stars like Zibanejad and Panarin.

The discussion is not "getting rid of one of our best players versus not." We are getting rid of one of our best players either way. The question is which, who it hurts to lose more, and who brings back more value.