Speculation: Kane and Toews extensions

[WJSN]

God. I hope this isn't true.

I'm so pissed off at T and K. And Bowman too. I know I shouldn't be. They 'earned' it. Kind of. It's certainly better than letting them walk. But it's just insane two guys would take up that much space in the cap. I wish there's an NBA like max rule to prevent something like this.

Two great players but they are not the two best players in this league and don't deserved to be paid 1.3M more than any other player in this league. I don't even care when other star players signed their deals. Giroux/Getzlaf/Perry signed last year and they're comparable players.

Again, this sucks if true.

 

[hisgirlfriday]

God. I hope this isn't true.

I'm so pissed off at T and K. And Bowman too. I know I shouldn't be. They 'earned' it. Kind of. It's certainly better than letting them walk. But it's just insane two guys would take up that much space in the cap. I wish there's an NBA like max rule to prevent something like this.

Two great players but they are not the two best players in this league and don't deserved to be paid 1.3M more than any other player in this league. I don't even care when other star players signed their deals. Giroux/Getzlaf/Perry signed last year and they're comparable players.

Again, this sucks if true.

There is an NBA like max rule in the NHL CBA. It is that no one player can take up 20 percent of the cap. Toews and Kane do not come close to this.

Don't hate the market participants. Hate the marketplace.

 

[Blackhawks]

10.8 will destroy the Hawks no matter how much the cap goes up. Cap going up is supposed to be used to keep the whole team intact and not sign two and let other two core guys go. 9.5 is way more than enough and will put them up there in the highest paid. Lets be realistic here, when the team had no depth they themselves didnt perform as well as they did when they had depth around them. This team has been good because of depth and not due to Toews and Kane, give Getslaf and Perry the same depth and they get similar results every time. Toews is no better than Getslaf and if he is then its very slight and not 2 mill more. I will be pissed at both of them if they take that amount.

 

[Sir Psycho T]

I think they accept between 9.5-10

They want to get paid like top players with Conn Smythes and Cups but I also think they want to continue to win. I think they know if they take the biggest deal possible that really hurts the team and puts a major clamp on getting any better.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

God. I hope this isn't true.

I'm so pissed off at T and K. And Bowman too. I know I shouldn't be. They 'earned' it. Kind of. It's certainly better than letting them walk. But it's just insane two guys would take up that much space in the cap. I wish there's an NBA like max rule to prevent something like this.

Two great players but they are not the two best players in this league and don't deserved to be paid 1.3M more than any other player in this league. I don't even care when other star players signed their deals. Giroux/Getzlaf/Perry signed last year and they're comparable players.

Again, this sucks if true.

What exactly is Bowman supposed to do here? Tell them to leave as FA's? Trade them?

Its either pay them or they walk as FA's next summer

 

[WJSN]

What exactly is Bowman supposed to do here? Tell them to leave as FA's? Trade them?

Its either pay them or they walk as FA's next summer

So that's how you negotiate?? Just get bent over and give them what they want or something very close to what they want?

A year ago, Giroux, Getzlaf and Perry had just as much leverage as Kane and Toews. They all somehow signed for 2M+ less.

 

[member 151739]

So that's how you negotiate?? Just get bent over and give them what they want or something very close to what they want?

A year ago, Giroux, Getzlaf and Perry had just as much leverage as Kane and Toews. They all somehow signed for 2M+ less.

I must have missed the 2 Cup wins by Giroux and the other Cup win by Perry and Getzlaf while getting Conn Smythes in the process.

 

[WJSN]

I must have missed the 2 Cup wins by Giroux and the other Cup win by Perry and Getzlaf while getting Conn Smythes in the process.

I'm not sure if you're sarcastic or not, but in terms of player value those three guys are at the same level as Kane and Toews. You may argue K and T are better, they're not 2m+ better, not even close. I understand we're all Hawks homers but let's get real.

 

[member 151739]

I'm not sure if you're sarcastic or not, but in terms of player value those three guys are at the same level as Kane and Toews. You may argue K and T are better, they're not 2m+ better, not even close. I understand we're all Hawks homers but let's get real.

Not even saying they are better, so I don't see how I'm being a homer? It's a simple fact that the Cup wins and Conn Smythes give Toews and Kane leverage the players you mentioned didn't have, and they have more value for that reason as well.

 

[Taze em]

So that's how you negotiate?? Just get bent over and give them what they want or something very close to what they want?

A year ago, Giroux, Getzlaf and Perry had just as much leverage as Kane and Toews. They all somehow signed for 2M+ less.

Mathematical comparison... boring post so feel free to scroll on.

Getzlaf and Perry signed for 8.5ish each the 2013-2014 season and the cap was 64.3M, Toews and Kane's will kick in 2015-2016 when it is predicted to be 75M.

That's a 16.6% increase. That would put Toews and Kane at 9.9M. Tack on the 2 cups and 2 Conn Smythe's and you have a salary that is in line with those contracts.

Crosby, Nash, Staal, Malkin and Ovechkin have all signed for more than 13% of the cap. 13% of the cap is 9.75M.

10.8M at 75M is 14.4% of the cap. That is significantly less than Ovechkin and the same as Eric Staal. Slightly higher than Perry, Nash and Crosby.

On Kane and Toes last contract they got 10.6% of the cap, I think they've deserved a 3.8% bump.

It is a fair deal but certainly not a discount. Nothing to complain about, especially with what they've brought this organization.

 

[WJSN]

Mathematical comparison... boring post so feel free to scroll on.

I guess that's somewhat fair way to look at it.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to agree with me. I just can't help but think 10.8 is too high.

Maybe I'll feel better when Stamkos get 13M a year from now.

 

[rick hawk]

What exactly is Bowman supposed to do here? Tell them to leave as FA's? Trade them?

Its either pay them or they walk as FA's next summer

If they are playing hardball you play hardball back. Better players than them have been traded.

 

[Sir Psycho T]

If they are playing hardball you play hardball back. Better players than them have been traded.

How did it work out for the team that traded them?

If you look at the major players who were traded the team that traded them usually didn't fair too well.

 

[ReillyO]

Not even saying they are better, so I don't see how I'm being a homer? It's a simple fact that the Cup wins and Conn Smythes give Toews and Kane leverage the players you mentioned didn't have, and they have more value for that reason as well.

How many Cups and Conn Smythes did they win with the 2011 roster? They almost missed the playoffs and I could see them miss in 2016 quite easily.

 

[ReillyO]

Mathematical comparison... boring post so feel free to scroll on.

Getzlaf and Perry signed for 8.5ish each the 2013-2014 season and the cap was 64.3M, Toews and Kane's will kick in 2015-2016 when it is predicted to be 75M.

That's a 16.6% increase. That would put Toews and Kane at 9.9M. Tack on the 2 cups and 2 Conn Smythe's and you have a salary that is in line with those contracts.

Crosby, Nash, Staal, Malkin and Ovechkin have all signed for more than 13% of the cap. 13% of the cap is 9.75M.

10.8M at 75M is 14.4% of the cap. That is significantly less than Ovechkin and the same as Eric Staal. Slightly higher than Perry, Nash and Crosby.

On Kane and Toes last contract they got 10.6% of the cap, I think they've deserved a 3.8% bump.

It is a fair deal but certainly not a discount. Nothing to complain about, especially with what they've brought this organization.

Yeah, like it was predicted to be 71M this season? What is it compared to the known cap at the time of signing?

 

[ReillyO]

Lets say that 10.8 is the cap hit # and 74 Million is the cap number for next year. Despite reports it could exceed that a little bit.

I'm not going to post the exact numbers i had up from capgeek earlier, but a roster could be assembled with about 400k-500k of space without Sharp and with/ or without Bickell.

Saad (4.0-4.1)- Toews- (10.8)- Kane (10.8)
Morin- (800k)- Teravainen (~800k)- Hossa (5.2)
Shaw (2)- McNeil (~800) - Smith (1.5)
Carey/Nordstrom/UFA/Hartman (~700k)- Kruger (1.3)

Fill that last line in with whatever works best.

Seabrook (5.8)- Keith (5.5)
Leddy (2.5)- Hammer (4.1)
S.Johns/Clendenning/Runblad/ UFA

Crawford (6)
Raanta

The Defense needs some depth, so use whatever money is left over on a decent UFA who can fill that roll. It's all a moot point though. Im sure Stan has a plan and we will be fine. If anything we roll with that line up for one year let the cap rise and get some relief. That team doesn't have great depth, but is still pretty good and lets the young guys get some experience. Another note is that this Org. has been excellent at finding parts in not only the early rounds, but later on in the draft and getting key guys in trades such as Leddy, Oduya ect. I think letting guys like Sharp who a lot of ppl like and Bickell stinks, but our forward depth down in Rockford and juniors in pretty good.

Leddy's taking a paycut and Kruger's getting a 500K raise? Really?

 

[Blackhawks]

Not even saying they are better, so I don't see how I'm being a homer? It's a simple fact that the Cup wins and Conn Smythes give Toews and Kane leverage the players you mentioned didn't have, and they have more value for that reason as well.

You win cups because of depth not with two players... The question you need to be asking is if Kessel or Getslaf were inserted in the place of Toews with the same support cast around him, would the Hawks have won the cup? I think the results would have been very similar if you ask me.

 

[ReillyO]

If Richards works out we may see something like this come 2015

CAPGEEK.COM ARMCHAIR GM ROSTER
CapGeek Armchair GM Roster
FORWARDS
Ben Smith ($1.500m) / J. Toews ($10.800m) / Marian Hossa ($5.275m)
B. Saad ($3.900m) / B. Richards ($3.900m) / P. Kane ($10.800m)
Teuvo Teravainen ($0.894m) / Andrew Shaw ($2.000m) / Kris Versteeg ($2.200m)
Jeremy Morin ($0.800m) / J Nordstrom ($0.900m) / A SolidVet ($1.000m)
A Rookie ($0.600m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Brent Seabrook ($5.800m) / Duncan Keith ($5.538m)
Niklas Hjalmarsson ($4.100m) / J Oduya ($4.100m)
S Johns ($0.800m) / C Campoli#2 ($0.900m)
A Pylon ($0.750m) /
GOALTENDERS
Corey Crawford ($6.000m)
Antti Raanta ($0.750m)


------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
CAP PAYROLL: $72,767,628; BONUSES: $500,000

No thanks on Richards. Let him get 4-5M for 4 years on a 35+ deal elsewhere.

 

[member 151739]

You win cups because of depth not with two players... The question you need to be asking is if Kessel or Getslaf were inserted in the place of Toews with the same support cast around him, would the Hawks have won the cup? I think the results would have been very similar if you ask me.

Certainly. And Kane and Toews, along with Keith, have been the most important players. I feel like I shouldn't have to argue this point with fellow Hawks fans.

 

[Sir Psycho T]

You win cups because of depth not with two players... The question you need to be asking is if Kessel or Getslaf were inserted in the place of Toews with the same support cast around him, would the Hawks have won the cup? I think the results would have been very similar if you ask me.

You win Cups with quality not just depth.

If you have a team filled with 2nd liners they would be good but wouldn't win anything.

To knock Kane and Toews as just a small piece of the puzzle is oversimplifying things on a huge level.

They are great players, who unlike many other great players play their best in the biggest moments and games.

Getlaf and Kessel are good players but this team isn't winning 2 Cups with them instead of Toews and Kane.

 

[ReillyO]

You win Cups with quality not just depth.

If you have a team filled with 2nd liners they would be good but wouldn't win anything.

To knock Kane and Toews as just a small piece of the puzzle is oversimplifying things on a huge level.

They are great players, who unlike many other great players play their best in the biggest moments and games.

Getlaf and Kessel are good players but this team isn't winning 2 Cups with them instead of Toews and Kane.

How many cups is the 2011 roster winning? Toews and Kane didn't look so great that year, did they? IIRC that's when the press started wanting Kane run out of town. He doesn't look good unless he's on a deep team (see also: the Olympics). By Christmas 2015 Rosenbloom will be writing "Kane is past it" editorials again, book it.

 

[ReillyO]

There is an NBA like max rule in the NHL CBA. It is that no one player can take up 20 percent of the cap. Toews and Kane do not come close to this.

Don't hate the market participants. Hate the marketplace.

I see what the next lockout will be about. Most of the NHLPA makes ~3M. Think they're going to be happy when the CBA is up for renewal, Stamkos etc is now making 15M and they're still on 3M?

 

[Bubba88]

CAPGEEK.COM ARMCHAIR GM ROSTER
CapGeek Armchair GM Roster
FORWARDS
Patrick Sharp ($5.900m) / Jonathan Toews ($6.300m) / Patrick Kane ($6.300m)
Bryan Bickell ($4.000m) / Brad Richards ($2.000m) / Marian Hossa ($5.275m)
Teuvo Teravainen ($0.894m) / Andrew Shaw ($2.000m) / Kris Versteeg ($2.200m)
Jeremy Morin ($0.800m) / Marcus Kruger ($1.325m) / Ben Smith ($1.500m)
Brandon Saad ($0.764m) / Peter Regin ($0.650m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Brent Seabrook ($5.800m) / Duncan Keith ($5.538m)
Niklas Hjalmarsson ($4.100m) / Johnny Oduya ($3.375m)
Nick Leddy ($2.700m) / Michal Rozsival ($2.200m)
David Rundblad ($0.785m) /
GOALTENDERS
Corey Crawford ($6.000m)
Antti Raanta ($0.750m)
BUYOUTS
Steve Montador ($0.000m)
Rostislav Olesz ($0.000m)
BONUS OVERAGE
$60,000
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $69,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $71,216,795; BONUSES: $630,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): -$2,216,795


Bickell or Sharp has to go... with Rozi, Oduya, Leddy and Krüger

 

[ReillyO]

CAPGEEK.COM ARMCHAIR GM ROSTER
CapGeek Armchair GM Roster
FORWARDS
Patrick Sharp ($5.900m) / Jonathan Toews ($6.300m) / Patrick Kane ($6.300m)
Bryan Bickell ($4.000m) / Brad Richards ($2.000m) / Marian Hossa ($5.275m)
Teuvo Teravainen ($0.894m) / Andrew Shaw ($2.000m) / Kris Versteeg ($2.200m)
Jeremy Morin ($0.800m) / Marcus Kruger ($1.325m) / Ben Smith ($1.500m)
Brandon Saad ($0.764m) / Peter Regin ($0.650m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Brent Seabrook ($5.800m) / Duncan Keith ($5.538m)
Niklas Hjalmarsson ($4.100m) / Johnny Oduya ($3.375m)
Nick Leddy ($2.700m) / Michal Rozsival ($2.200m)
David Rundblad ($0.785m) /
GOALTENDERS
Corey Crawford ($6.000m)
Antti Raanta ($0.750m)
BUYOUTS
Steve Montador ($0.000m)
Rostislav Olesz ($0.000m)
BONUS OVERAGE
$60,000
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $69,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $71,216,795; BONUSES: $630,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): -$2,216,795


Bickell or Sharp has to go... with Rozi, Oduya, Leddy and Krüger

either one of Sharp/Bicks or dumping Steeg + Rozi should do it. Then sell everyone but 1988, 2, 81 and the kids for picks and prospects next summer, probably.

 

[Heraldic]

If they are playing hardball you play hardball back. Better players than them have been traded.

According to capgeek their NMCs just kicked in this season.

They got ALL the leverage here.