Jordan vs. James

[sfvega]

The team that drafted Jordan was the 3rd worst. In Jordan's first season he led them to the playoffs. How does that give you a high draft pick? Lebron missed the playoffs his first 2 seasons. That definitely gives you better draft picks. The year Pippen was drafted the Bulls traded up to get him at 5 from 8th.

The Cavs actually were pretty well set-up right before LeBron. They had what should have been a huge draft in 2002 by getting DaJuan Wagner and Carlos Boozer. Wagner had very high potential but his career was thoroughly derailed by injuries, and the team had agreed to an extension with Boozer who then backed out and signed with the Jazz. They declined his option to sign the extension, therefore they got no compensation for him. He went on to be a 2-time All Star, and his 21/11 season would have been by far the best supporting cast player LeBron in Cleveland prior to the embarrassment of riches he returned to in 2015. Boozer ended up only playing with LeBron for James' rookie year. They also had Ricky Davis who was thought to be a building block for the team at the time, but ended up being a mostly empty stat-chaser for bad teams instead of a real impact player for any good teams.

The Bulls chose 10th in 87 because there were only 7 lottery teams who didn't make the playoffs. The Cavs drafted 10th in 04 when they failed to make the playoffs, because the league had more teams. Their pick the next season was traded away in 1997. Jordan not only had a competent GM, which Cleveland definitely didn't have from 05 on, but Jordan had no shortage of high picks around him.

The Cavs had 2 top 20 picks in LeBron's first stint there:

Luke Jackson taken 10th overall in 2004
JJ Hickson taken 19th overall in 2008

Jordan had 8 top 20 picks in his first 7 years with the Bulls:

Keith Lee take 11th overall in 1985 (traded immediately for Charles Oakley)
Brad Sellers taken 9th overall in 1986
Polynice taken 8th overall in 1987 (traded immediately for Pippen)
Horace Grant taken 10th overall in 1987
Will Purdue taken 11th overall in 1988
Stacey King taken 6th overall in 1989
BJ Armstrong taken 18th overall in 1989
Jeff Sanders taken 20th overall in 1989

Not only are there a lot more high picks, and better scouting, but there's also some shrewd GM moves pulled off like trading a guy averaging 7 points and 5 boards for the Polynice pick which was the basis for the Pippen deal. But then trading Sellers, who was averaging 7 points and 3 boards, to get back the 1st they traded Seattle with Polynice, which turned out to be BJ Armstrong who had a very good career with them including an All Star appearance. So I guess technically it's really 7 top 20 picks since one was flipped for another. But it all hinges on getting Pippen who is probably still hovering right around a top 50 player all-time, and Grant who was underrated offensively and a beast defensively.

Still, giving Jordan only one top 10 pick and one pick near 20 overall a few years later (say just Lee or Sellers and Armstrong) would have lost them Pippen and Grant and all of a sudden that dynasty team looks a lot cloudier.

 

[Stylizer1]

The Cavs actually were pretty well set-up right before LeBron. They had what should have been a huge draft in 2002 by getting DaJuan Wagner and Carlos Boozer. Wagner had very high potential but his career was thoroughly derailed by injuries, and the team had agreed to an extension with Boozer who then backed out and signed with the Jazz. They declined his option to sign the extension, therefore they got no compensation for him. He went on to be a 2-time All Star, and his 21/11 season would have been by far the best supporting cast player LeBron in Cleveland prior to the embarrassment of riches he returned to in 2015. Boozer ended up only playing with LeBron for James' rookie year. They also had Ricky Davis who was thought to be a building block for the team at the time, but ended up being a mostly empty stat-chaser for bad teams instead of a real impact player for any good teams.

The Bulls chose 10th in 87 because there were only 7 lottery teams who didn't make the playoffs. The Cavs drafted 10th in 04 when they failed to make the playoffs, because the league had more teams. Their pick the next season was traded away in 1997. Jordan not only had a competent GM, which Cleveland definitely didn't have from 05 on, but Jordan had no shortage of high picks around him.

The Cavs had 2 top 20 picks in LeBron's first stint there:

Luke Jackson taken 10th overall in 2004
JJ Hickson taken 19th overall in 2008

Jordan had 8 top 20 picks in his first 7 years with the Bulls:

Keith Lee take 11th overall in 1985 (traded immediately for Charles Oakley)
Brad Sellers taken 9th overall in 1986
Polynice taken 8th overall in 1987 (traded immediately for Pippen)
Horace Grant taken 10th overall in 1987
Will Purdue taken 11th overall in 1988
Stacey King taken 6th overall in 1989
BJ Armstrong taken 18th overall in 1989
Jeff Sanders taken 20th overall in 1989

Not only are there a lot more high picks, and better scouting, but there's also some shrewd GM moves pulled off like trading a guy averaging 7 points and 5 boards for the Polynice pick which was the basis for the Pippen deal. But then trading Sellers, who was averaging 7 points and 3 boards, to get back the 1st they traded Seattle with Polynice, which turned out to be BJ Armstrong who had a very good career with them including an All Star appearance. So I guess technically it's really 7 top 20 picks since one was flipped for another. But it all hinges on getting Pippen who is probably still hovering right around a top 50 player all-time, and Grant who was underrated offensively and a beast defensively.

Still, giving Jordan only one top 10 pick and one pick near 20 overall a few years later (say just Lee or Sellers and Armstrong) would have lost them Pippen and Grant and all of a sudden that dynasty team looks a lot cloudier.

LeBron should have made better picks and trades then.

Of the guys you mentioned Horace Grant was the only starter and BJ Armstrong was a solid back up Point guard who developed in to a good average point guard given the team that was around him. Once he left Chicago he was bellow average. He fit the role needed of him on the Bulls. Will Purdue and Stacy King where utility players at best. Polynice was a decent bigman But never played a game for Chicago.

Gibson was as good as BJ
Zydrunas Ilgauskas Was a quality center
Boozer was a good Power Forward

Cleveland no doubt had bad management and bad coaching. Harping over who would have drafted who or didn't isn't really part of this discussion. Jordan got drafted by an equally bad team with a history of losing. Jordan had nothing to do with the players he played with. On the other hand Lebron did have a say shortly into his career which resulted in poor rosters and coaches. The only time He was put in his place was in Miami where he succeeded with Riley and Spolsrta calling the shots.

 

[sfvega]

LeBron should have made better picks and trades then.

Of the guys you mentioned Horace Grant was the only starter and BJ Armstrong was a solid back up Point guard who developed in to a good average point guard given the team that was around him. Once he left Chicago he was bellow average. He fit the role needed of him on the Bulls. Will Purdue and Stacy King where utility players at best. Polynice was a decent bigman But never played a game for Chicago.

Gibson was as good as BJ
Zydrunas Ilgauskas Was a quality center
Boozer was a good Power Forward

Cleveland no doubt had bad management and bad coaching. Harping over who would have drafted who or didn't isn't really part of this discussion. Jordan got drafted by an equally bad team with a history of losing. Jordan had nothing to do with the players he played with. On the other hand Lebron did have a say shortly into his career which resulted in poor rosters and coaches. The only time He was put in his place was in Miami where he succeeded with Riley and Spolsrta calling the shots.

LeBron wasn't calling the shots in his first stint in Cleveland as much as he was the 2nd. especially not in his 1st or 2nd off-season. The NBA in 2004/2005 wasn't what it is today where stars can call who/when on transactions. Hell, even Kobe requested a trade to Chicago and didn't get it and he was a megastar at the time.

BJ Armstrong was an efficient deep shooter who shot 48% from the field as a Bull, 44% from 3. He averaged 14 points/game as a starter with 4 assists and a steal. Gibson only started 52 games with LeBron in 4 seasons. He shot 42% from the field and 42% from three. The most he averaged was 10.4 points/game and 2.5 assists/game. Armstrong was also a much better defender than Gibson. BJ wasn't a monster by any means, but to have the 4th best player on the team as an All-Star, that's pretty good. A starter vs. a reserve. A plus defender vs a below-average defender. An efficient shooter and better scorer vs. an inefficient shooter and worse scorer.

Z and Horace were pretty close. Ilgauskas was better on O, but Horace was better on D and on the boards. Z had more range and scored a bit more. Both 1x All Star. Horace was twice 2nd team All NBA on defense.

Boozer was great, but they only played one year together. That's kind of important when we're talking about the discrepancy in building a winner around LeBron and building a winner around Jordan.

The point isn't that Will Purdue and Stacy King were All Stars. It's that the Bulls had many more high picks, and therefore chances at developing good talent and putting a roster around MJ.

The point of mentioning Polynice is his importance of the Pippen acquisition, and the fact that they had a ton of draft capital.

Ilgauskas was a very good center. But he's kind of beside the point. It's kind of like Luka with Hardaway and Brunson. It's very hard to win a championship with a flawed surrounding cast, and especially when the best of the bunch (Boozer, Brunson) leave and you don't have a lot of draft capital to build that contender. Luka also had Porzingis, but he ended up being a bad fit. Now he has another superstar, so we'll see where he goes from there. But I think it would be pointing the blame in the wrong direction to say something like "Luka should have made better trades/picks." Versus a team like Denver who has very competently built around Jokic. The FRANCHISE'S failure to build a championship-caliber team doesn't lie on one player. The Bulls' success doesn't lie on only MJ. That's the point. Situations aren't the same.

LeBron had a bigger hand in the Miami roster build than the 2000s Cavs build. There's way more on LeBron recruiting Bosh, recruiting Allen, and Miami ended up drafting Shabazz to try and recruit James back.

LeBron: My recruiting is vital to Lakers' success

LeBron James says his recruiting efforts are as important to the Lakers as his play. "I think being in L.A., I don't think it would be that hard to get guys here," he said. "But we got to win."

www.espn.com

"I've been trying to get guys to come play with me since, like, 2007. I've got rejected a lot. But I've also have not got rejected a lot."

The players the Cavs traded for from 2007 off-season until he left were a broken down Ben Wallace, Wally Szczerbiak right before retirement, and a pretty good Mo Williams. Mainly due to the pieces they were moving out. There was no value in teams acquiring guys like Damon Jones, and Donyell Marshall who was nearing retirement, Larry Hughes who was mostly a defender by that point. And with the Cavs being in the mix to win the East, their picks weren't worth a whole lot. And this is before teams leveraged a bunch of future picks for good players, which is probably for the best considering they turned into a few top 2 picks.

But I fel like I'm wasting my time here. You can't even look at plain black and white picks and say "Yeah, those are unequal situations" in response to:

Lebron missed the playoffs his first 2 seasons. That definitely gives you better draft picks.

When you could have just said "Oh, it doesn't. In fact, it was quite the opposite. My bad." Which I partly blame on ESPN. There's just not a lot of nuance to NBA discussion anymore. It's all a bunch of feelings-based hot takes.

 

[swerdnase]

All this talk of who had the better team, harder competition, rings, statistics and whatever are just all sidenotes for me. For me, if you are looking for the greatest basketball player of all time, I'm just looking at basketball skill. Jordan was the most fundamentally sound player that I've ever seen and had no weaknesses. James fails at the most basic aspect of basketball, shooting the ball. Watch the video that I linked and was repeated later in this topic. The maker of the video is a Jordan fan so many LeBron fans say it is biased but ignore the snarky remarks and just pay attention to the facts and it's obvious that it isn't really close.

 

[Stylizer1]

LeBron wasn't calling the shots in his first stint in Cleveland as much as he was the 2nd. especially not in his 1st or 2nd off-season. The NBA in 2004/2005 wasn't what it is today where stars can call who/when on transactions. Hell, even Kobe requested a trade to Chicago and didn't get it and he was a megastar at the time.

BJ Armstrong was an efficient deep shooter who shot 48% from the field as a Bull, 44% from 3. He averaged 14 points/game as a starter with 4 assists and a steal. Gibson only started 52 games with LeBron in 4 seasons. He shot 42% from the field and 42% from three. The most he averaged was 10.4 points/game and 2.5 assists/game. Armstrong was also a much better defender than Gibson. BJ wasn't a monster by any means, but to have the 4th best player on the team as an All-Star, that's pretty good. A starter vs. a reserve. A plus defender vs a below-average defender. An efficient shooter and better scorer vs. an inefficient shooter and worse scorer.

Z and Horace were pretty close. Ilgauskas was better on O, but Horace was better on D and on the boards. Z had more range and scored a bit more. Both 1x All Star. Horace was twice 2nd team All NBA on defense.

Boozer was great, but they only played one year together. That's kind of important when we're talking about the discrepancy in building a winner around LeBron and building a winner around Jordan.

The point isn't that Will Purdue and Stacy King were All Stars. It's that the Bulls had many more high picks, and therefore chances at developing good talent and putting a roster around MJ.

The point of mentioning Polynice is his importance of the Pippen acquisition, and the fact that they had a ton of draft capital.

Ilgauskas was a very good center. But he's kind of beside the point. It's kind of like Luka with Hardaway and Brunson. It's very hard to win a championship with a flawed surrounding cast, and especially when the best of the bunch (Boozer, Brunson) leave and you don't have a lot of draft capital to build that contender. Luka also had Porzingis, but he ended up being a bad fit. Now he has another superstar, so we'll see where he goes from there. But I think it would be pointing the blame in the wrong direction to say something like "Luka should have made better trades/picks." Versus a team like Denver who has very competently built around Jokic. The FRANCHISE'S failure to build a championship-caliber team doesn't lie on one player. The Bulls' success doesn't lie on only MJ. That's the point. Situations aren't the same.

LeBron had a bigger hand in the Miami roster build than the 2000s Cavs build. There's way more on LeBron recruiting Bosh, recruiting Allen, and Miami ended up drafting Shabazz to try and recruit James back.

LeBron: My recruiting is vital to Lakers' success

LeBron James says his recruiting efforts are as important to the Lakers as his play. "I think being in L.A., I don't think it would be that hard to get guys here," he said. "But we got to win."

www.espn.com

"I've been trying to get guys to come play with me since, like, 2007. I've got rejected a lot. But I've also have not got rejected a lot."

The players the Cavs traded for from 2007 off-season until he left were a broken down Ben Wallace, Wally Szczerbiak right before retirement, and a pretty good Mo Williams. Mainly due to the pieces they were moving out. There was no value in teams acquiring guys like Damon Jones, and Donyell Marshall who was nearing retirement, Larry Hughes who was mostly a defender by that point. And with the Cavs being in the mix to win the East, their picks weren't worth a whole lot. And this is before teams leveraged a bunch of future picks for good players, which is probably for the best considering they turned into a few top 2 picks.

But I fel like I'm wasting my time here. You can't even look at plain black and white picks and say "Yeah, those are unequal situations" in response to:


When you could have just said "Oh, it doesn't. In fact, it was quite the opposite. My bad." Which I partly blame on ESPN. There's just not a lot of nuance to NBA discussion anymore. It's all a bunch of feelings-based hot takes.

You make some good points but this is now getting away from the fact you have 2 players who's careers started out in similar fashions and took drastic detours by careers end.

The year Jordan came out of retirement the Bulls were 23-25 at the allstar break and went 24 - 10 the rest of the way. (13-4 with Jordan)The season before without Jordan they were 55-27 due to chemistry. Without Jordan they were not a good team, barely a playoff team and would have been battling Boston for the last playoff spot.

You make the best with what you have or you don't, and keep trying to the bitter end.

You are also taking my quote out of context in regards to replying to Bam. His homer take was just bad and I was pointing out how it wasn't a valid argument. Both players joined bad teams and 1 had an immediate impact where as the other took a few seasons. His assertion was the opposite of reality.

 

[Stylizer1]

All this talk of who had the better team, harder competition, rings, statistics and whatever are just all sidenotes for me. For me, if you are looking for the greatest basketball player of all time, I'm just looking at basketball skill. Jordan was the most fundamentally sound player that I've ever seen and had no weaknesses. James fails at the most basic aspect of basketball, shooting the ball. Watch the video that I linked and was repeated later in this topic. The maker of the video is a Jordan fan so many LeBron fans say it is biased but ignore the snarky remarks and just pay attention to the facts and it's obvious that it isn't really close.

To me Lebron was never must see TV. Jordan was the best and most exciting player to watch because the way he took over games. Even people who hated the Bulls loved to watch Jordan play.

 

[sfvega]

You make some good points but this is now getting away from the fact you have 2 players who's careers started out in similar fashions and took drastic detours by careers end.

The year Jordan came out of retirement the Bulls were 23-25 at the allstar break and went 24 - 10 the rest of the way. (13-4 with Jordan)The season before without Jordan they were 55-27 due to chemistry. Without Jordan they were not a good team, barely a playoff team and would have been battling Boston for the last playoff spot.

You make the best with what you have or you don't, and keep trying to the bitter end.

You are also taking my quote out of context in regards to replying to Bam. His homer take was just bad and I was pointing out how it wasn't a valid argument. Both players joined bad teams and 1 had an immediate impact where as the other took a few seasons. His assertion was the opposite of reality.

They did start in the same spot. The Bulls were shambles, and the Cavs were a bad franchise all-around. And they ended in different places. Jordan got 6 rings and 6 Finals MVPs. Nobody can compare to that in an era where there are more than 8-12 teams. And no disrespect to Bill Russell, but it was way easier to dominate back then.

And as much as I, and everyone else, love to shit on Jerry Krause he did have a pretty damn good stretch of deals and drafting. Even the move that pissed off the team in Kukoc, his scoring in 97 and 98 was huge for a team that was carried by Pip and moreso Jordan on the offensive end. Harper couldn't score worth a shit in Chicago, and Dennis' offensive moveset was mostly putbacks.

And it's weird because I grew up in Illinois in the 90's. There wasn't a kid around who didn't idolize MJ. He was bigger than life. But I don't put him above LeBron because he was my favorite player or because he was a mega star in my childhood. I put him above LeBron because he was objectively better. He was a better scorer, he was a better defender, and he was more dominant. It's that simple.

But you also have to look at what they had to deal with. And I feel like I STILL need to preface this with saying that going to a shittier franchise that was strapped for picks doesn't mean that LeBron would have been better, because we all saw what he became on Super Teams and it wasn't 6 rings and 6 FMVPs. That's not the argument. It's not. But it is to say that the situations were unequal. When Jordan left the Bulls, they went to the 2nd round of the playoffs and lost to the team that won the East. When LeBron left the Cavs, they went 19-63 and picked first overall. It's possible that if the lottery had gone differently, and he goes to Detroit with what they had building or to the Raps with Jalen Rose and Vince Carter or to the Heat which have been one of the most competently run orgs the last 20 years that things could easily have gone differently. I don't even think Kareem could win a title with that Cavs organization in that run if he was drafted there, and Kareem dominated every level of basketball he ever played at and I have him above LeBron. But they were incompetent, strapped for picks, and lost their only big impact player a year in. I don't think "Make it happen" is a solution to the issue. Did Kobe not need Shaq and Pau and Odom and Artest and Fisher to win chips? Did Duncan not need Robinson and Parker and Manu and Kawhi and S-Jax to win chips? Did Steph not need Klay and KD and Draymond and Poole to win chips? When Hakeem won, Clyde averaged 21.5, Horry averaged 18, Elie averaged 16. Even Dirk when he won, Jet averaged 18 in the Finals. The only player I can remember had a real rough supporting cast was Wade when he beat the Mavs and Shaq averaged like 13 and Toine and Glove were past their prime and Zo was making things happen but he was hardly the Zo of the 90's. It was a combination of unreal play by Wade and one of the worst played Finals of my lifetime.

 

[Stylizer1]

They did start in the same spot. The Bulls were shambles, and the Cavs were a bad franchise all-around. And they ended in different places. Jordan got 6 rings and 6 Finals MVPs. Nobody can compare to that in an era where there are more than 8-12 teams. And no disrespect to Bill Russell, but it was way easier to dominate back then.

And as much as I, and everyone else, love to shit on Jerry Krause he did have a pretty damn good stretch of deals and drafting. Even the move that pissed off the team in Kukoc, his scoring in 97 and 98 was huge for a team that was carried by Pip and moreso Jordan on the offensive end. Harper couldn't score worth a shit in Chicago, and Dennis' offensive moveset was mostly putbacks.

And it's weird because I grew up in Illinois in the 90's. There wasn't a kid around who didn't idolize MJ. He was bigger than life. But I don't put him above LeBron because he was my favorite player or because he was a mega star in my childhood. I put him above LeBron because he was objectively better. He was a better scorer, he was a better defender, and he was more dominant. It's that simple.

But you also have to look at what they had to deal with. And I feel like I STILL need to preface this with saying that going to a shittier franchise that was strapped for picks doesn't mean that LeBron would have been better, because we all saw what he became on Super Teams and it wasn't 6 rings and 6 FMVPs. That's not the argument. It's not. But it is to say that the situations were unequal. When Jordan left the Bulls, they went to the 2nd round of the playoffs and lost to the team that won the East. When LeBron left the Cavs, they went 19-63 and picked first overall. It's possible that if the lottery had gone differently, and he goes to Detroit with what they had building or to the Raps with Jalen Rose and Vince Carter or to the Heat which have been one of the most competently run orgs the last 20 years that things could easily have gone differently. I don't even think Kareem could win a title with that Cavs organization in that run if he was drafted there, and Kareem dominated every level of basketball he ever played at and I have him above LeBron. But they were incompetent, strapped for picks, and lost their only big impact player a year in. I don't think "Make it happen" is a solution to the issue. Did Kobe not need Shaq and Pau and Odom and Artest and Fisher to win chips? Did Duncan not need Robinson and Parker and Manu and Kawhi and S-Jax to win chips? Did Steph not need Klay and KD and Draymond and Poole to win chips? When Hakeem won, Clyde averaged 21.5, Horry averaged 18, Elie averaged 16. Even Dirk when he won, Jet averaged 18 in the Finals. The only player I can remember had a real rough supporting cast was Wade when he beat the Mavs and Shaq averaged like 13 and Toine and Glove were past their prime and Zo was making things happen but he was hardly the Zo of the 90's. It was a combination of unreal play by Wade and one of the worst played Finals of my lifetime.

When Jordan left the Bulls they were coming off 3 straight Championships. As I said in an earlier post they still had championship chemistry just Like the Toronto Raptors When Kawhi Leonard left after their championship in 2019. The raptors lost in game 7 to the Celtics the next season in the east semi finals.

Not only did Lebron leave but so did Danny Green, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Jamario Moon, Shaquile O'Neal, Leon Powe, Sebastian Telfair, Delonte West, Jawad Williams, and Mo Williams. That's 9 players and with Lebron that makes it ten, almost the whole team left. That's why the Cavs had the record they did.

When Jordan left the bull for the 94 season they didn't lose anyone of significance and added Tony Kukoc and Steve Kerr, and Luc Longley.

When Jordan was Drafted by the Bulls it was a bad team that wasn't building anything Just like the Cavs. Jordan like Lebron was the center piece to build around. One team did it flawlessly and the other did not. Neither players fault is what I'm saying.

When Shaq was on Miami the season they won he was averaging 20 points/9 rebounds a game and 18 and 10 in the playoffs. that season the Mas won 60 games, 8 more than Miami. Miami was full of vets like Mourning, Payton, Williams, Walker, Shaq, they were more hungry.

Krause was a genius but he didn't draft Jordan Rod Thorn did. When Harper was added to the bulls he was coming off seasons of 20 points over most of his career by then. On the Bulls he was asked to take a different role, handle the ball and play perimeter D. By season 2 him and Kerr were splitting point guard minutes 505/50 and where used for different match ups. At drafting Krause was pretty average but at signing and trading is where he excelled. Adding Kukoc was a gamble that payed off. The only other all star quality player he added was Grant who managed 1 all star appearance,

Not sure at this point what is the point so lets agree to disagree with what ever our goals were.

 

[swerdnase]

There wasn't a kid around who didn't idolize MJ. He was bigger than life. But I don't put him above LeBron because he was my favorite player or because he was a mega star in my childhood. I put him above LeBron because he was objectively better. He was a better scorer, he was a better defender, and he was more dominant. It's that simple.

Exactly. As I posted, Jordan is the most fundamentally sound basketball player I have ever witnessed. He had no weaknesses. Then add above the skill his competitive drive, work ethic and his practically perfect storybook career it's hard to see anyone overtaking him as the GOAT.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Exactly. As I posted, Jordan is the most fundamentally sound basketball player I have ever witnessed. He had no weaknesses. Then add above the skill his competitive drive, work ethic and his practically perfect storybook career it's hard to see anyone overtaking him as the GOAT.

If you actually think that Jordan was the most fundamentally sound player ever you don't know shit about basketball. It's pretty funny listening to people talk about this in this thread who would be a better fit in the YouTube comment section.

 

[sfvega]

When Jordan left the Bulls they were coming off 3 straight Championships. As I said in an earlier post they still had championship chemistry just Like the Toronto Raptors When Kawhi Leonard left after their championship in 2019. The raptors lost in game 7 to the Celtics the next season in the east semi finals.

Not only did Lebron leave but so did Danny Green, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Jamario Moon, Shaquile O'Neal, Leon Powe, Sebastian Telfair, Delonte West, Jawad Williams, and Mo Williams. That's 9 players and with Lebron that makes it ten, almost the whole team left. That's why the Cavs had the record they did.

When Jordan left the bull for the 94 season they didn't lose anyone of significance and added Tony Kukoc and Steve Kerr, and Luc Longley.

When Jordan was Drafted by the Bulls it was a bad team that wasn't building anything Just like the Cavs. Jordan like Lebron was the center piece to build around. One team did it flawlessly and the other did not. Neither players fault is what I'm saying.

When Shaq was on Miami the season they won he was averaging 20 points/9 rebounds a game and 18 and 10 in the playoffs. that season the Mas won 60 games, 8 more than Miami. Miami was full of vets like Mourning, Payton, Williams, Walker, Shaq, they were more hungry.

Krause was a genius but he didn't draft Jordan Rod Thorn did. When Harper was added to the bulls he was coming off seasons of 20 points over most of his career by then. On the Bulls he was asked to take a different role, handle the ball and play perimeter D. By season 2 him and Kerr were splitting point guard minutes 505/50 and where used for different match ups. At drafting Krause was pretty average but at signing and trading is where he excelled. Adding Kukoc was a gamble that payed off. The only other all star quality player he added was Grant who managed 1 all star appearance,

Not sure at this point what is the point so lets agree to disagree with what ever our goals were.

That magical championship chemistry. That unquantifiable quality of a team that carries them through. The Bulls were still good. They won 55 games. Pip was an All Star, All-NBA 1st team, All-NBA defense 1st team, 3rd in the MVP race. Grant was an All Star, All-NBA defense 2nd team. They had a great coach. They had a good GM. Like it's weird that you attribute their success to some talking point instead of saying that they just had a star in his prime and good depth and were a well-run organization. But I do feel like doing that kind of undercuts your argument about their situations. But it does feel like you're ignoring the obvious just to not admit that the situations were different.

The Raptors were still a very good team! They were very good defensively and had tons of scoring. The difference between them, the Celtics, and the Heat that year was really small. They were the #1 scoring defense in the league. It's weird how that "championship chemistry" only rolls over with teams that have talent. Like the Heat miss the playoffs after LeBron left. But Bosh was out for the year midseason with a blood clot. I guess they lost that "championship chemistry" with Bosh's injury. Funny.

It's also funny that you mention Gibson being as good as Armstrong (he wasn't), but don't argue for how good he was on the 2010 Cavs. Mo Williams and Moon weren't moved til the deadline, that team was cheeks even with them.

You keep repeating that Jordan and LeBron started in the same place and then completely ignoring what they had built around them. The resources. 7 top 20 picks to 2. Jerry Krause vs. Danny Ferry. Phil Jackson vs. Mike Brown. LeBron's 2nd best player being roughly as good as Jordan's 3rd best player. Jordan having better shooters around him.

And again, this isn't a pro-LeBron argument. Because the basketball on the court isn't as good as Jordan's unmatched resume on the court, even after he got more talent around him. But if we're going to mention the situations, they are unequal. 100%.

No one ever said Krause drafted Jordan. What are you talking about? My point was that despite them starting from equal points, Jordan had a good GM who made many great moves that put him in the position to be able to win a championship.

It's also like my favorite player post-MJ: Kevin Garnett. He played some of the best basketball I'd seen at the time. Unbelievable skillset. Became the prototype for the lanky, positionless forwards of today. Incredible jumper. Unreal handle and passing for a PF at the time. 6 straight 1st team All-NBA defense. Insane competitiveness. He had every single attribute you'd want in a basketball player. But man, that franchise couldn't build jack shit around him. He, like LeBron, lost his most talented teammate early on and never got a better one with that franchise. Starbury played like 2 years with him and bounced allegedly due to location and a little jealousy about KG's big deal. Past that, his surrounding squad was painfully inadequate. The furthest they ever made it was the WCF with a 34 year old Sam Cassell with a back and hip injury and Spreewell who had just a slew of issues and would soon be out of the league. And Wally Szczerbiak. They had more band-aids than building blocks, and it was never going to work despite how well he played.

The Heat were full of vets. And a lot of them sucked. Toine added some scoring, but he was a past his prime chucker who detracted as much as he helped. Shaq was leaving his prime. He still had a good year, but this was when Shaq's weight was really getting out of hand. He could still bring it, especially in his match-ups with Yao. But as the year went on, he had less in the tank. Shaq, who had previously played his best in the Finals, was significantly worse at the end. Some games they finished without Shaq on the court.

You say Mourning, Payton, Williams, Walker, Shaq. Veterans who wanted it more. Let me show you some 4th quarter scoring for their close wins.

Game 3 4th quarter
Wade: 15 points
Shaq: 4 points
Walker: 0 points
Williams: 3 points
Payton: 2 points
Zo: 0 points

Game 5 4th quarter
Wade: 17 points
Shaq: 3 points
Walker: 0 points
Payton: 3 points
Zo: didn't enter
Williams: didn't enter

Game 6 4th quarter
Wade: 11 points
Shaq: 2 points
Walker: 0 points
Williams: 0 points
Payton: 0 points
Zo: 0 points

Game 4 was a blowout. The difference in that series, which I cannot stress enough was just some ugly basketball, was the "veteran leadership" getting strapped to Dwyane Wade's back and getting carried to a ring. The scoring in the series was skewed very much towards Wade and the scoring in crunch time was skewed very much towards Wade. Walker was the only player who had a 20 point game. For reference, in 98 Pippen had 3 games of 20+. It's insanely hard to win when so much of it is on one player, and I'm sure if they played a more complete team like the Spurs had edged the Mavs, they would have smothered Wade and grinded out another gritty, fundamental, boring Finals win.

We're not talking about what Harper did before the Bulls. Donyell Marshall was a good scorer before he got to the Cavs. On the Cavs, he sucked. It's pretty cut and dry.

Krause was better at scouting than he was at dealing. To attribute Pippen to trading and not drafting is just f***ing semantics. It's still scouting and identifying who you want. The same with Kukoc who they drafted but weren't able to sign until later. Like no one praises the Hawks scouting for drafting Luka, because that's how draft day always goes. It's always a flurry of activity and you just hope you end up securing the player, regardless of who technically drafts them.

 

[No More Subban]

I have a lot of respect for Lebron for everything he's done for the league but it just isn't enough to make him the GOAT.

I just don't know how anyone can look at Jordan's accomplishments and say, yeah that's the second best player ever.

 

[JackSlater]

That magical championship chemistry. That unquantifiable quality of a team that carries them through. The Bulls were still good. They won 55 games. Pip was an All Star, All-NBA 1st team, All-NBA defense 1st team, 3rd in the MVP race. Grant was an All Star, All-NBA defense 2nd team. They had a great coach. They had a good GM. Like it's weird that you attribute their success to some talking point instead of saying that they just had a star in his prime and good depth and were a well-run organization. But I do feel like doing that kind of undercuts your argument about their situations. But it does feel like you're ignoring the obvious just to not admit that the situations were different.

The Raptors were still a very good team! They were very good defensively and had tons of scoring. The difference between them, the Celtics, and the Heat that year was really small. They were the #1 scoring defense in the league. It's weird how that "championship chemistry" only rolls over with teams that have talent. Like the Heat miss the playoffs after LeBron left. But Bosh was out for the year midseason with a blood clot. I guess they lost that "championship chemistry" with Bosh's injury. Funny.

It's also funny that you mention Gibson being as good as Armstrong (he wasn't), but don't argue for how good he was on the 2010 Cavs. Mo Williams and Moon weren't moved til the deadline, that team was cheeks even with them.

You keep repeating that Jordan and LeBron started in the same place and then completely ignoring what they had built around them. The resources. 7 top 20 picks to 2. Jerry Krause vs. Danny Ferry. Phil Jackson vs. Mike Brown. LeBron's 2nd best player being roughly as good as Jordan's 3rd best player. Jordan having better shooters around him.

And again, this isn't a pro-LeBron argument. Because the basketball on the court isn't as good as Jordan's unmatched resume on the court, even after he got more talent around him. But if we're going to mention the situations, they are unequal. 100%.

No one ever said Krause drafted Jordan. What are you talking about? My point was that despite them starting from equal points, Jordan had a good GM who made many great moves that put him in the position to be able to win a championship.

It's also like my favorite player post-MJ: Kevin Garnett. He played some of the best basketball I'd seen at the time. Unbelievable skillset. Became the prototype for the lanky, positionless forwards of today. Incredible jumper. Unreal handle and passing for a PF at the time. 6 straight 1st team All-NBA defense. Insane competitiveness. He had every single attribute you'd want in a basketball player. But man, that franchise couldn't build jack shit around him. He, like LeBron, lost his most talented teammate early on and never got a better one with that franchise. Starbury played like 2 years with him and bounced allegedly due to location and a little jealousy about KG's big deal. Past that, his surrounding squad was painfully inadequate. The furthest they ever made it was the WCF with a 34 year old Sam Cassell with a back and hip injury and Spreewell who had just a slew of issues and would soon be out of the league. And Wally Szczerbiak. They had more band-aids than building blocks, and it was never going to work despite how well he played.

The Heat were full of vets. And a lot of them sucked. Toine added some scoring, but he was a past his prime chucker who detracted as much as he helped. Shaq was leaving his prime. He still had a good year, but this was when Shaq's weight was really getting out of hand. He could still bring it, especially in his match-ups with Yao. But as the year went on, he had less in the tank. Shaq, who had previously played his best in the Finals, was significantly worse at the end. Some games they finished without Shaq on the court.

You say Mourning, Payton, Williams, Walker, Shaq. Veterans who wanted it more. Let me show you some 4th quarter scoring for their close wins.

Game 3 4th quarter
Wade: 15 points
Shaq: 4 points
Walker: 0 points
Williams: 3 points
Payton: 2 points
Zo: 0 points

Game 5 4th quarter
Wade: 17 points
Shaq: 3 points
Walker: 0 points
Payton: 3 points
Zo: didn't enter
Williams: didn't enter

Game 6 4th quarter
Wade: 11 points
Shaq: 2 points
Walker: 0 points
Williams: 0 points
Payton: 0 points
Zo: 0 points

Game 4 was a blowout. The difference in that series, which I cannot stress enough was just some ugly basketball, was the "veteran leadership" getting strapped to Dwyane Wade's back and getting carried to a ring. The scoring in the series was skewed very much towards Wade and the scoring in crunch time was skewed very much towards Wade. Walker was the only player who had a 20 point game. For reference, in 98 Pippen had 3 games of 20+. It's insanely hard to win when so much of it is on one player, and I'm sure if they played a more complete team like the Spurs had edged the Mavs, they would have smothered Wade and grinded out another gritty, fundamental, boring Finals win.

We're not talking about what Harper did before the Bulls. Donyell Marshall was a good scorer before he got to the Cavs. On the Cavs, he sucked. It's pretty cut and dry.

Krause was better at scouting than he was at dealing. To attribute Pippen to trading and not drafting is just f***ing semantics. It's still scouting and identifying who you want. The same with Kukoc who they drafted but weren't able to sign until later. Like no one praises the Hawks scouting for drafting Luka, because that's how draft day always goes. It's always a flurry of activity and you just hope you end up securing the player, regardless of who technically drafts them.

Wade had a bit more help in 2006 than just his teammates.

 

[DaaaaB's]

When it comes to Jordan not losing any finals, seems like no one takes into consideration that the teams the Bulls beat were nowhere near as good as the Spurs and Warriors teams LeBron lost to.

 

[DaaaaB's]

If this thread was in the hockey polls it would be closed for a landslide.

Nobody ever disputes Lebron's greatness but he just isn't the GOAT...and that's ok, I guess it just some real loud Lebron fans trying to keep it alive

No, it's only a landslide because this board is mainly used by people who grew up in the 80/90s admiring Jordan. I like Jordan a lot better for that reason too but he's not the better player. Not only has LeBron accomplished more but he can dominate at any position.

LeBron has a massive ego, news at 11.

Do you actually think Jordan doesn't have a massive ego?

 

[Howboutthempanthers]

When it comes to Jordan not losing any finals, seems like no one takes into consideration that the teams the Bulls beat were nowhere near as good as the Spurs and Warriors teams LeBron lost to.

It was closer than it may appear. By record and by perception.

 

[thefutures]

When it comes to Jordan not losing any finals, seems like no one takes into consideration that the teams the Bulls beat were nowhere near as good as the Spurs and Warriors teams LeBron lost to.

Jordan didn't choke like 2011 lebron either. Some ppl simply won't move past that.

 

[Vamos Rafa]

When it comes to Jordan not losing any finals, seems like no one takes into consideration that the teams the Bulls beat were nowhere near as good as the Spurs and Warriors teams LeBron lost to.

Nowhere near? Maybe you have a case for the KD Warriors but the Spurs? The Bulls were facing 58+ win teams in the 6 NBA Finals appearances including their second threepeat, the Sonics with 64 wins and the Jazz with 64 and 62 wins.

The Bulls also never got lucky to face a weakass Miami team in the Finals like the LeBron Lakers did in ‘20.

 

[DaaaaB's]

Nowhere near? Maybe you have a case for the KD Warriors but the Spurs? The Bulls were facing 58+ win teams in the 6 NBA Finals appearances including their second threepeat, the Sonics with 64 wins and the Jazz with 64 and 62 wins.

The Bulls also never got lucky to face a weakass Miami team in the Finals like the LeBron Lakers did in ‘20.

Saying nowhere near was over the top but they're definitely better teams imo. From what I remember the west had a lot of weak teams in the late 90s and there's more talent in the league in general now too. More than anything I just can't imagine those Sonics/Jazz teams beating a Spurs team with Duncan, Parker, Leonard and Ginobili. The Warriors even without Durant still had more talent. I definitely agree that none of the teams the Bulls beat were near as weak as Miami in '20.

 

[John Price]

 

[tacogeoff]

No, it's only a landslide because this board is mainly used by people who grew up in the 80/90s admiring Jordan. I like Jordan a lot better for that reason too but he's not the better player. Not only has LeBron accomplished more but he can dominate at any position.


Do you actually think Jordan doesn't have a massive ego?

how has he accomplished more? He may have played 5 more season but has he actually accomplished more?

Jordan still has 2 more championships, 1 more reg season MVP, 2 more finals MVPs, 4 more defensive first team selections, 3 more all-defensive teams selections, a D player of the year, 9 more scoring titles and 3 steals leader.
all with five less seasons. LJ obviously has more all star selections, and appearances but alot of that comes down to his longevity in the game.

Jordan dominated offensively and defensively. It would have been enjoyable to see him play unchained and in a more multi facet position back in the day but their team was highly structured and he was the scorer.

its like alot of the people that grew up in the 00/10s admired Lebron growing up but never went back to watch Jordan play.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

how has he accomplished more? He may have played 5 more season but has he actually accomplished more?

Jordan still has 2 more championships, 1 more reg season MVP, 2 more finals MVPs, 4 more defensive first team selections, 3 more all-defensive teams selections, a D player of the year, 9 more scoring titles and 3 steals leader.
all with five less seasons. LJ obviously has more all star selections, and appearances but alot of that comes down to his longevity in the game.

Jordan dominated offensively and defensively. It would have been enjoyable to see him play unchained and in a more multi facet position back in the day but their team was highly structured and he was the scorer.

its like alot of the people that grew up in the 00/10s admired Lebron growing up but never went back to watch Jordan play.

Jordan was incredible at what he did, but there is no world where he has the same versatility as Lebron. Jordan was a scorer and a guard because that's what he did best. He wasn't guarding 3s and 4s because he was too small to do so effectively, which is not an issue for Lebron. And while Jordan had good vision, Lebron is simply on a different plane.

 

[Stylizer1]

Jordan was incredible at what he did, but there is no world where he has the same versatility as Lebron. Jordan was a scorer and a guard because that's what he did best. He wasn't guarding 3s and 4s because he was too small to do so effectively, which is not an issue for Lebron. And while Jordan had good vision, Lebron is simply on a different plane.

Jordan was the best scorer and one of the best defenders during his time. Lebron is a ball hog. Lebron is not versatile, he is just big which gives him an advantage over other players. Jordan was not big but he dominated the league with style and excitement. In Lebron's era no one played 1 on 1 D because they were allowed to play zone. Also for a guy as big as Lebron he played most of his career on the perimeter. Jordan on the other hand made highlight reels in the paint.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Several Jordan feats that are rarely mentioned:

-He's the only player in history to have 8 seasons where he led the league in both the season and playoffs in total points and PPG while also being first defensive team.

-He also did it 5 years in a row between 1989 and 1993.

-He's the only player to win a finals MVP with only one double digit teammate for the entire playoff (1997).

-He has the highest impact of any finals MVP ever, overcoming an averaged -41.0 ppg deficit over a 6 game span in 1993. In other words, Jordan had to score 13.7 ppg more than Barkley in all 6 games combined to equal the Suns total series score, which he did as both teams ended the series with 640 points each, despite the Bulls winning 4-2. It's not only a record 41.0 ppg for a finals MVP, it's also the highest p% in the finals at 38.4%. He had his hands on more than 50% of his team's score when adding assists, which is another record for a finals MVP.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Some MJ vs LeBron playoff stats comparisons (present playoffs excluded):

Before their first championship year; tally.

(#1=best scorer of each series #2=2nd best on team, #3=3rd best, RoT=Rest of team, all player scores are PPG. Deficit to overcome is the team scores outside of #1 vs #1 matchup to tie the score. All ppg are based on total series point so there are some 0.1 discrepancies because of rounding out)

Jordan
W/L 24-29
Series W/L 5-6
Season team win average: 43.4w
Season +/- average: +0.7 pg
Playoff opponents win avg: 55.4w
Playoff opponents +/- avg: +5.1 pg
P-O gm score: Bulls 100.5 vs 101.8 Opp
P-O total scores: Bulls 5326 vs 5395 Opp
Jordan vs Opp #1: 35.8 vs 22.5 (+13.3)
Bulls #2 vs Opp #2: 16.0 vs 19.0 (-3.0)
Bulls #3 vs Opp #3: 12.0 vs 14.7 (-2.7)
Bulls RoT vs Opp Rot: 36.7 vs 45.5 (-8.8)
Team score outside Jordan: 64.7
Points needed by Jordan to tie: 37.1
Jordan points %: 35.6%
R/A/S/B: 6.9r 6.7a 2.5s 1.0b
Deficit to overcome: -14.6

Lebron
W/L 56-36
Series W/L 11-6
Season team win average: 55.0w
Season +/- average: +4.8 pg
Playoff opponents win avg: 50.6w
Playoff opponents +/- avg: +3.4 pg
P-O gm score: 92.8 vs 90.4
P-O total scores: 8536 vs 8317
Lebron vs Opp #1: 28.0 vs 22.3 (+5.7)
LJ tm #2 vs Opp #2: 16.9 vs 17.2 (-0.3)
LJ tm #3 vs Opp #3: 13.8 vs 14.2 (-0.4)
LJ tm RoT vs Opp Rot: 34.1 vs 36.8 (-2.6)
Team score outside Lebron: 64.8
Points needed by Lebron to tie: 25.6
Lebron points %: 30.2%
R/A/S/B: 8.4r 7.0a 1.7s 1.0b
Deficit to overcome: -3.3

It is readily apparent that Jordan had much less offensive support than Lebron did. Despite the total scores being around 10% less in Lebron's playoffs, his team (outside his own contribution) scored just as much as Jordan's (64.8 vs 64.7). Jordan had a higher impact and had much more to overcome.

And then there's the stat I ommited. Jordan was eliminated by top 3 teams (3rd, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 1st, 2nd) every single time, 6 times out of 11 series, never losing a series outside of top 3 matchups, while Lebron played top 3 teams only 3 times out of 17 series. His losses came up against #1, #3, #1, #4, #9, #4. In fact, because Lebron played in the Leastern conference and Jordan played a strong eastern conference before their first championships, Jordan ended-up playing top 10 teams just as many times as Lebron, despite Lebron playing 6 more series.

So let's look at the same time span, before 1991 and before 2012, but this time vs top 10 teams exclusively in the playoffs:

Jordan
W/L 18-26
Series W/L 3-6
Season team win average: 43.3w
Season +/- average: +0.7 pg
Playoff opponents win avg: 58.1w
Playoff opponents +/- avg: +6.2 pg
P-O gm score: 99.4 vs 102.0
P-O total scores: 4374 vs 4489
Jordan vs Opp #1: 34.6 vs 22.5 (+12.1)
Bulls #2 vs Opp #2: 16.0 vs 19.0 (-3.0)
Bulls #3 vs Opp #3: 11.9 vs 14.6 (-2.7)
Bulls RoT vs Opp Rot: 36.9 vs 45.9 (-9.0)
Team score outside Jordan: 64.8
Points needed by Jordan to tie: 37.2
Jordan points %: 34.8%
R/A/S/B: 7.0r 6.9a 2.5s 0.9s
Deficit to overcome: -14.7

Lebron
W/L 24-28
Series W/L 3-6
Season team win average: 55w
Season +/- average: +4.8 pg
Playoff opponents win avg: 58.3w
Playoff opponents +/- avg: +6.3
P-O gm score: 90.0 vs 91.2
P-O total scores: 4678 vs 4740
Lebron vs Opp #1: 26.6 vs 21.9 (+4.7)
LJ tm #2 vs Opp #2: 17.5 vs 17.8 (-0.3)
LJ tm #3 vs Opp #3: 13.6 vs 14.5 (-0.9)
LJ tm RoT vs Opp Rot: 32.3 vs 36.9 (-4.7)
Team score outside Lebron: 63.4
Points needed by Lebron to tie: 27.8
Lebron points %: 29.6
R/A/S/B: 8.0r 6.8a 1.8s 1.1b
Deficit to overcome: -5.9

So with similar strenght matchups, it's even more plain to see that Jordan had less support and much more to overcome before winning his championships.



So those championships. I often hear about how Lebron beat better teams, yet this disregards all teams being better on average (league total talent) but even worst, it's even more unevenly divided than in Jordan's days. Lebron beat better teams, but with objectively better rosters too and I will demonstrate that even though it should be plain to see. Now, whether Lebron could've won more championships if he had better teams is irrelevant, not only because of what I previously showed, that Jordan had lesser support pre-championship and did more, but also because of the championships they did win. So let's look at that. More precisely, a tally of stats from their finals MVPs:

Note that I could've made it worst for Lebron if I picked MJ's best 4 finals MVP. I'm tempted to drop them at the end. Wait.. No. I think I'll do just that instead of 6 vs 4. For three reasons: To show you just how much more merit there is to those 4 finals by MJ, but also because when get down to the details, we notice something glarring. For his 6 championships, Jordan's Bulls faced 10x top 3 teams. 4 out of the 6 runs, they had to face the two other best teams in the league. Lebron? 3x top 3 teams for 4 championships. If you want to give Lebron two fictional MVPs for the times he had injured teammates or faced insurmountable odds, it's only fair to evaluate the merits of their actual MVPs. Note that people often bring up 2016, but Irving finished with 2.0 ppg less than Lebron, which is the kind of offensive support Jordan never had. On top of Curry playing on one knee. So better opponent, arguably, but also better offense around him as I will show.

If we're talking assists, Jordan has the best finals of the two with 11.4 apg. So we're going to add a point+assist vs total score in % to show that even considering assists, Jordan goes over Lebron easily. There's a caveat though, is that I couldn't find a stat seperating assists between 2 and 3 points, but considering the increase in 3PT over the last decade, this stat would be skewed in Lebron's favor. Still, I did estimates that considered the relative difference in 3pt occurences and applied a bonus in the estimates to Lebron and Jordan still beat him in ppg+asp/team score. Considering passing for 3 pointers is far from the most difficult of game situations to pass in, and not even being sure how many if any are counted that way, and finally, how it's much more about the shooter sinking it, the relative difficulty of the shot, I will simply counted 2 points per assist. I also didn't do it for the previous pre-championship stats, because they were pretty much similar and Jordan already flat out beat Lebron in points%.

So Jordan's 4 best finals MVPs vs Lebron's 4 finals MVPs:

Jordan (91-92-93-97)
W/L 16-7
Series W/L 4-0
Season team win average: 63.5w
Season +/- average: +9.1 pg
Playoff opponents win avg: 60.3w
Playoff opponents +/- avg: +7.4
P-O gm score: 99.9 vs 95.7 (+4.2)
P-O total scores: 2298 vs 2201
Jordan vs Opp #1: 35.3 vs 23.9 (+11.4)
Bulls #2 vs Opp #2: 20.7 vs 16.6 (+4.1)
Bulls #3 vs Opp #3: 11.5 vs 15.1 (-3.6)
Bulls RoT vs Opp Rot: 32.5 vs 40.2 (-7.7)
Team score outside Jordan: 64.7
Points needed by Jordan to tie: 31.0
Jordan points %: 35.3%
R/A/S/B: 6.7r 7.4a 1.8s 0.8b
Deficit to overcome: -7.2 pg
Points+Assists(×2)/Score%: 50.1%

Lebron (12, 13, 16, 20)
W/L 16-9
Series W/L 4-0
Season team win average: 60.0w
Season +/- average: +6.4
Playoff opponents win avg: 59.5w
Playoff opponents +/- avg: +6.6
P-O gm score: 102.1 vs 100.0
P-O total scores: 2552 vs 2500
Lebron vs Opp #1: 28.3 vs 24.0 (+4.3)
LJ tm #2 vs Opp #2: 23.6 vs 18.8 (+4.8)
LJ tm #3 vs Opp #3: 12.3 vs 13.5 (-1.2)
LJ tm RoT vs Opp Rot: 37.9 vs 43.7 (-5.8)
Team score outside Lebron: 73.8
Points needed by Lebron to tie: 26.2
Lebron points %: 27.7%
R/A/S/B: 11.1r 8.0a 2.0s 1.1b
Deficit to overcome: -2.2
Points+Assists/Score%: 43.3%

As we can see, Jordan had less support, more to overcome, produced more by himself and impacted the score at a much higher rate when considering assists.

Another thing of note, MJ scored 14.6 ppg more than his second man (Pip) on average, while Lebron's second men finished 4.7 ppg behind Lebron. Just to give you an idea in the difference in offensive support, Lebron's 2nd (Wade, Irving, Anthony) finished those 4 finals with 590 points to Lebron's 707 pts, but also finished with only 10 less points (600) than Lebron's direct opposition. In contrast, Pippen scored 73 points less than Jordan's direct opposition, while Jordan doubled the difference vs his opponents compared to Lebron. This shows a wide chasm in contribution and no amount of assists and rebounds makes-up the difference.

More stats...

Jordan had 37 playoff series total, while Lebron had 50 before this year.

Scoring 40ppg+ in a series:
MJ 5/37 vs LJ 0/50

Scoring 35ppg+ in a series:
MJ 13/37 vs LJ 4/50

Scoring 30ppg+ in a series:
MJ 28/37 vs LJ 18/50

Scoring less than 25ppg in a series:
MJ 0/37 vs LJ 10/50

Scoring 40%+ of team points in a series:
MJ 3/37 vs LJ 0/50

Scoring 35%+ of team points in a series:
MJ 12/37 LJ 4/50

Scoring 30%+ of team points in a series:
MJ 30/37 vs LJ 16/50

Scoring less than 25% of points in a series:
MJ 0/37 vs LJ 12/50