Prospect Info: Jonathan Dahlen
- Thread starter WTG
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Cali teams are in decline. Age of their cores tells the tale no matter how far one or two of them get this year. Their make up will be different by the time we're competing. Flames are an average size team, leaving only the Oilers a skill and speed team at heart.
Benning's desire for mean 'n' potatoes need not be questioned. Goes to show how much luck, as in what's available in trades and drafts, can influence what you end up with, irrespective of plans. Not all of Dahlen, Goldobin, Bae, Granlund and Lockwood will make it or see the ice at the same time while in a Nuck jersey. And if by miracle most do it just means more trade chips to get size. One legit power forward and a Virtanen turn around would beef up our fortunes in a hurry.
Still very much in the finding talent phase.
Dab
Registered User
- Apr 17, 2017
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"Are they doing this for the good of the club or for some good PR when fans and media are on top of them?" Is a question I've had to ask all too often of this management group lately.
Does the contract have an Assignment clause for all three years of the ELC? If so it kind of sucks, but at the end of the day it probably doesn't matter all that much.
The Iron Goalie
Formally 'OEL for Norris'
I feel this will play out one of three ways.
1. He makes the NHL
2. He show really well at camp, and the team + Dahlen himself feel he just needs some time in the AHL. Ie agrees to go to the AHL, and get called up at some point during the season.
3. Isn't close to being ready, and heads back to Sweden.
1. He makes the NHL
2. He show really well at camp, and the team + Dahlen himself feel he just needs some time in the AHL. Ie agrees to go to the AHL, and get called up at some point during the season.
3. Isn't close to being ready, and heads back to Sweden.
"Don't force him into the behemoth Pacific division where he'll get beat up and discouraged."
Is this the NHL Pacific you are referring to or the AHL Pacific? If you are referring to the the AHL Pacific, do you have some secret inside information that we are unaware of?
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This is just a further example of how Benning does deals which while maybe developing his prospect the kid is out of the team's playing depth picture. The kid can't get called up. The same occurred with Gaudette and Boeser and now Lockwood and Dahlen.
1. If you are going to do these kind of deals (and the Dahlen one I disagree with), you have to load up your AHL to provide the depth you lose due to these kind of deals. Benning has failed on this count 2 years running and has gutted a poorly manned AHL team to begin with and lowered the level of play the Canucks had with the replacements. There were better players available through waivers.
2. William Nylander and his brother were both NHL drafts who came to North America and played in the AHL at 18. Willie starred in the AHL as a 19 year old and is now doing very, very well in the NHL as a 3rd yr pro. Whine, put down, attack, or hate Toronto, but they aren't signing these escape clauses with the their European prospects. They are acclimating them to the smaller rinks and the NA pro game earlier than Canadian Jrs can do so.
Buffalo did the same thing with younger brother Alex this season. 18 and in the AHL with Rochester and got 4 games already with the Sabres.
They can also get an early NHL taste and be sent back to the AHL, not Jrs. Willie played 22 games with the Leafs as a 19 yr old. Alex played 4 games with the Sabres this season at 18.
This idea that Dahlen is too young or small to participate at this level is rationalization. Draft picks at his level are able to participate. You make these moves knowing what you get ahead of time with players willing to follow the plan. Not do the deal and then negotiate and lose with a kid. You have to be smart when you do these deals.
1. If you are going to do these kind of deals (and the Dahlen one I disagree with), you have to load up your AHL to provide the depth you lose due to these kind of deals. Benning has failed on this count 2 years running and has gutted a poorly manned AHL team to begin with and lowered the level of play the Canucks had with the replacements. There were better players available through waivers.
2. William Nylander and his brother were both NHL drafts who came to North America and played in the AHL at 18. Willie starred in the AHL as a 19 year old and is now doing very, very well in the NHL as a 3rd yr pro. Whine, put down, attack, or hate Toronto, but they aren't signing these escape clauses with the their European prospects. They are acclimating them to the smaller rinks and the NA pro game earlier than Canadian Jrs can do so.
Buffalo did the same thing with younger brother Alex this season. 18 and in the AHL with Rochester and got 4 games already with the Sabres.
They can also get an early NHL taste and be sent back to the AHL, not Jrs. Willie played 22 games with the Leafs as a 19 yr old. Alex played 4 games with the Sabres this season at 18.
This idea that Dahlen is too young or small to participate at this level is rationalization. Draft picks at his level are able to participate. You make these moves knowing what you get ahead of time with players willing to follow the plan. Not do the deal and then negotiate and lose with a kid. You have to be smart when you do these deals.
What are you talking about? He signed an entry level deal. That's it. He is eligible to play in the AHL. He is eligible to play in the NHL. He is eligible to play in Sweden. He will play wherever the Canucks think will further his development the most. And I'm sorry, right now that would not be in Utica. With Green about to leave, and with an absolutely atrocious lineup, he would not benefit from playing for the Comets next year. It's either Sweden or NHL.
You've gotta get over the notion that it's all about you.
On one hand I appreciate the energy you put into your Comet posts but on the other hand you fill your Comet posts with *****ing and complaining that for me takes away any value to your posts.
There are development programs around the world, not everything is about the AHL and Utica
Get over it.
1. I think you've missed that his contract is reported to contain a clause, as Tryamkin's did, that allows him to require he be returned to Europe rather than be assigned to a minor league team.
2. I don't know where the best place for him to develop is, but Benning was quoted when he traded for him as saying they wanted to get him over playing in Utica next season. Given those comments, it seems surprising to see that he's been given an European out clause.
Regardless, it doesn't change the point that if he isn't going to play in Utica, it affects system depth. He can't reasonably be called up from Europe for a couple of games and he doesn't contribute to the farm team, either while others are called up or at all. Accordingly, the Canucks' management should be taking note of that and taking otherr steps to provide organizational depth-both players that can be called up and players to play in Utica (so the team isn't completely gutted when their players are called up.)
Since Henning was let go the Canucks haven't been doing much (and that may be putting it charitably) to provide that depth in the organization.
ginner classic
Dammit Jim!
Absolutely, he is eligible to play in all 3 locations. Who said he wasn't?Have you read all the previous posts? However he has a contract out. He has a free pass back to Sweden if he doesn't make the big club and that's exactly where he will go. It's not up to the Canucks, just like it wasn't up to the Canucks last Fall with Tryamkin. It's up to the 19 year old kid and his agent. So like I said the Players Benning has been getting never play in the AHL. It's been Vancouver, NCAA, and Europe. Toronto and the Sabres didn't sign those deals, the kids play in the AHL or the NHL not Sweden!
Jake is only in the AHL because he fizzled in their attempt to rush him in. Hutton and Stecher were already past Jake in age when they appeared on the scene as will be Boeser and Goldobin and next in line Gaudette. The draft picks and even the free agent NCAA guys don't go to the AHL. His developmental depth system is non-existent and he's now on the 4th season of "building" it. It's in worse shape now than when he began.
Why do you suppose they have an absolutely atrocious lineup? I've been trying to clue you in to a big part of the reason.
As to the shape of Utica. Benning is responsible for bringing in those atrocious AHL players that won't help Dahlen out. Then come injury time it's, "Oh, ****! We don't have anyone down there who can actually help out better than treading water a la Megna and Chaput. They couldn't even send Virtanen down and give him what he needed, a play making center. To quote Benning, "Jake needs a play making center and they don't have any of those down there." NO ****, Jimbo! Why would that be? Who's job was it to get those players for the farm for not just 1, but 2 seasons without any play making centers? Oh yeah, that's right, YOURS!!!
Or maybe it's just one more case of Jim getting bent over in negotiations.
Jonathan: "My years start counting now no matter how it goes for me from here. I sign and in 3 years the ELC is up. I think next year I play in the NHL or Sweden. No NA minors for me."
Jim: "I don;'t see why we can't do that. I think you will probably fit into the Canucks rebuilding (wink, wink, really playoff) line up next season just fine anyway.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but this all about money I'm afraid....if he doesn't earn an NHL salary by making the Canucks, then it's back to Sweden where he'd earn far more than playing for the $70,000 he'd make in the AHL on the first year of his entry-level contract.
Same deal basically that Tryamkin and his agent cut with the Canucks....so while the Canucks might 'prefer' him to go to Utica, there's basically no way he ends up there.
And I get "Bad Goalie's" concerns about this....cutting side-deals that basically keep some of your better prospects out of the AHL permanently.
Do you have any idea it has nothing to do with me. I am talking about an NHL franchise's main in season feeding tube. The Vancouver Canucks suffer mightily when they don't properly supply their farm.
First and foremost, any prospects they have down there are starved of the talent they desperately need to develop their game to NHL quality. The Jake example is premier. He, as well as any other forward in Utica, needed a play making center, but as Benning personally stated, "They don't have any of those down there." This glaring example of what I mean came straight from the horse's own mouth.
Subban has been floundering about without a decent veteran D-man to work out his game with, an on ice coach, teacher, and positional expert by example a la NHL Cup winner Kent Huskins. This type of guy is of immense need to all of the defenders, but Subban ,McEneny, and Sautner, the kids, needed him most.
Demko was a deer in the headlights most every night out left to to do or die by a team that was totally inept in their own zone. He wasn't working on perfecting his game, but was instead doing every thing possible to keep the puck out of his net and that often meant pure athleticism and the learned parts of the game went out the window.
That team contained a whopping total of 5 actual current prospects: Subban, McEneny, Virtanen, LaBate, and Demko.
There are a couple the NHL train might come back for in the future, but it's doubtful: Carcone and unsigned Kunyk, .
The NHL train has passed by the rest of Vancouver's proeprty: Grenier, Pedan, Zalewski, Cassels, Sautner, Laplante, and unsigned Valk.
If I had to predict out of all those guys who would actually be a player, I'd say Demko. Of all the rest, Jake still could get there before any of the rest. LaBate could be bottom 6, but his type is dime a dozen. McEneny maybe #8, but has a long way to go yet. Subban would have to hit just right, at just the right time on team who could hide him for 8 minutes or so and just employ him to work on the PP. The Canucks don't have that luxury.
Second,
Benning has drafted 3 times and Demko is the only one in Utica thus far. Virtanen is there by default and has spiraled down whereas Thatcher is on the rise.
Briesbois will likely be in Utica this season. of all his other signees there is a wish and prayer that they even make the AHL team while others still hoped just get signed which likely means the ECHL.
When this is what's on tap, you have to become ingenious in building a farm team that can be of use to your few prospects as well as providing a life line for your own franchise. Benning has failed miserably at this job. If he had half a brain he would assign an Asst GM like Gillis did in Lorne Henning. Lorne built a top notch farm team in 2 seasons and had players available for call-ups while the team had enough depth within to weather their absence. That's how you do the job.
Like the the rest of the AHL team, Jim fired Henning after a brilliant job of farm building and traded away or never gave any real chance to the majority of the Gillis guys he inherited.
-He never replaced Henning.
-He never replaced the talent lost in players going the free agent route.
-He never replaced the talent lost to trades since the NHL team kept the trade returns.
-He never replaced the talent he eventually kept in the show.
He never replaced team captain Biega who he gave a 1-way to. He was replaced by a PTO who eventually got a SPC contract.
_He allowed the Comets to go on for nealrly 3 months playing as many as 9 PTOs at one time without getting then any help until late in the season with the demotion of Higgins. Then an AHL trade deadline deal got them TJ Hensick. These two helped eke them into the AHL first round.
-This season he gathered some mediocre AHL talent and then called it up to become Canucks and never went out on the waiver wire to gain better players and send the mediocres back to Utica. Those guys became Willie's darlings in spite of near zero production (4Gs each) in 126 GP. In fact those guys lost for the season were never addressed with any in-season replacements.
I could go on, but this should reveal what I am talking about. Again it's not about me, but about how Benning is cheating his own club by not building the depth up in his farm system. That is the whole point of the farm. Development first and depth second. Both have suffered terribly under inept control. The guy tries to keep everything in his hands and it's too much work to do. He can't even manage his own team as well as he could, let alone the farm at the same time.
Tim McCracken
Good loser = LOSER!
Good to see the deal get done, great trade for both teams, and really looking forward to seeing him at the Young Stars Tourney but hopefully he goes back to Sweden for another year.
rune74
Registered User
- Oct 10, 2008
- 9,228
- 552
The Iron Goalie
Formally 'OEL for Norris'
What are you talking about. Boeser was playing in the NCAAs, Lockwood and Gaudette are playing in the NCAAs. You make it sound like Benning send them there and it's a mistake because it screws over the farm team.
The key is developing the prospect. If Dahlen develops better in Sweden then that's where he should go. And quite frankly, I don't anticipate a problem. If the Canucks think Dahlen is far from being an NHL player then I'm sure Dahlen will go back to Sweden. I think the Canucks can convince Dahlen to go down to Utica if the Canucks thinks he close and is a callup option. I anticipate Dahlen playing for Utica and seeing how things go and going back to Sweden if he's in the AHL for too long. These assignment clauses are rapidly becoming more popular. The contract that Forsling signed with the Blackhawks had an European assignment clause until Dec. 1.
William is a rare case. Not many top draft eligible prospects like him from Sweden switch teams like he did. I can't think of another prospect who left their SHL team part way to play in the AHL. Regardless, you're talking about the benefit of drafting a European prospect or European prospect on loan to the CHL. A team shouldn't put much stock into the fact the prospect can play in the AHL at 18 when making the selection IMO.
Wait a minute. So all this time you didn't understand that an 18 or 19 year old CHL prospect can't be sent to the AHL?
How many times do I have to explain to you that top prospects not spending much time if at all in the AHL is actually a good thing? For lesser prospects the normal development time is draft + 2 years and then the AHL. It doesn't matter that Benning has drafted 3 times and Demko is the only one in Utica, only Benning's 1st draft class should be expected to have some players in the AHL. Next year you're getting players from the 2015 draft class. And if you don't end up getting Boeser or Gaudette that's a good thing.
Well teams normally don't keep an AGM around just to run the farm team. And opportunity should be given to those deserving of opportunity. Benning had no problems giving Markstrom, Horvat, Hutton, Gaunce, and Kenins opportunity. Even Labate. Maybe Shinkaruk and Corrado should have been given greater opportunity? But they clearly weren't NHL ready to deserve much in the way of opportunity.
Horse McHindu
They call me Horse.....
What are you talking about. Boeser was playing in the NCAAs, Lockwood and Gaudette are playing in the NCAAs. You make it sound like Benning send them there and it's a mistake because it screws over the farm team.
The key is developing the prospect. If Dahlen develops better in Sweden then that's where he should go. And quite frankly, I don't anticipate a problem. If the Canucks think Dahlen is far from being an NHL player then I'm sure Dahlen will go back to Sweden. I think the Canucks can convince Dahlen to go down to Utica if the Canucks thinks he close and is a callup option. I anticipate Dahlen playing for Utica and seeing how things go and going back to Sweden if he's in the AHL for too long. These assignment clauses are rapidly becoming more popular. The contract that Forsling signed with the Blackhawks had an European assignment clause until Dec. 1.
William is a rare case. Not many top draft eligible prospects like him from Sweden switch teams like he did. I can't think of another prospect who left their SHL team part way to play in the AHL. Regardless, you're talking about the benefit of drafting a European prospect or European prospect on loan to the CHL. A team shouldn't put much stock into the fact the prospect can play in the AHL at 18 when making the selection IMO.
Wait a minute. So all this time you didn't understand that an 18 or 19 year old CHL prospect can't be sent to the AHL?
How many times do I have to explain to you that top prospects not spending much time if at all in the AHL is actually a good thing? For lesser prospects the normal development time is draft + 2 years and then the AHL. It doesn't matter that Benning has drafted 3 times and Demko is the only one in Utica, only Benning's 1st draft class should be expected to have some players in the AHL. Next year you're getting players from the 2015 draft class. And if you don't end up getting Boeser or Gaudette that's a good thing.
Well teams normally don't keep an AGM around just to run the farm team. And opportunity should be given to those deserving of opportunity. Benning had no problems giving Markstrom, Horvat, Hutton, Gaunce, and Kenins opportunity. Even Labate. Maybe Shinkaruk and Corrado should have been given greater opportunity? But they clearly weren't NHL ready to deserve much in the way of opportunity.
I am clearly pointing out that I am fully aware of the fact they are in college. Of course top prospects don't spend much time in the AHL, if any. You keep telling me what I keep telling you I know and that's the depth problem Vancouver has created, but could easily fix that you simply refuse to accept. That means they are not in the active depth pool. Those players have to be accounted for come call-up time as well as development of the prospects that are on the farm. They don't have the top guys to help them along with their development and it will stall if they don't get help from upper management in constructing a team that will help them. They are not top prospects and thus have to get more of a push at the lower level to have a chance.
Thus, they can't be called up so call-ups have to be provided. They can't be the play making centers so a couple must be provided. They can't be the scoring winger so a couple need to be provided. Prospect centers need quality partners to center and prospect wingers need play making centers to get them the puck. These become call ups while leaving the prospects other players to assist in what they need. We should never hear a NHL GM use the excuse that one of his top prospects trying to battle his way back to the NHL can't use the play making center he needs because "they don't have any of those down there."
Secondly, you don't remove a total of 2 AHL/NHL tweeners (if two guys who put up a total of 8 goals in 126 GP can be called tweeners) from the lineup and have the result be a team that can't score to save their lives. They also had nothing to do with a team full of newcomer forwards who couldn't protect their keeper from offensive onslaughts on a nightly basis. Oh, they tried, but were physically no match for the opponents they were trying to limit to time and space.
The defensemen were thus overrun and only Pedan had enough physical size and strength, but has the IQ of a gnat, so he continuously blundered every 3rd or 4th play he attempted. With Tryamkin gone Benning has brought him back into the Vancouver picture, have fun if it becomes so. Pizza,Pizza. Hooking. Slashing. Boarding. Temper tantrums.
Billins could only succeed if he got to the puck first because he was physically no match for the NA style (the fact that he has already headed back to Sweden where guys his size can be successful on D says it all)
Sautner couldn't handle physicality.
Subban can't come close to handling it.
McEneny is learning.
Robak gets away with speed, guile, and an incredible 2nd and 3rd effort with go go gadget arms and a body that twists and stretches to break up almost every passing effort and shot attempt against him (you'd have to watch him to understand). Yet, when push came to shove, he had his problems when battling with the big guys. Who from that bunch could Benning depend upon in a call-up role?
Answer? None.
-Subban, 0 NHL GP in 2 full AHL seasons.
-Ashton Sautner, 0 NHL GP in 2 full AHL seasons
-Evan McEneny, 1 NHL game in 2 pro seasons (ECHL and AHL)
-Chad Billins, 0 games this season with Utica and a total of 10 games in 2013-14 with Calgary and then off to Europe.
-Andrey Pedan, played 13 games for Vancouver in 2015-16. How was that received in Vancouver? With all the defensive woes this season and Andrey's time spent in Vancouver he had 0 GP.
-Robak wasn't on an NHL contract, thus 0 NHL GP.
That's a total of one GP by the top 6 D-men on the farm. You would be hard pressed to find another NHL team with that few GP by their farm for the season.
This is all I mean. The farm has not been stocked in a manner that Vancouver can rely on them as call-ups for temporary replacements of injured Canucks. There were none here who should have been relied upon as full season replacements. If Jim is going to keep any new prospect who even smells of talent, then he has to build up his talent pool in Utica. Not so I and the rest of the comets fan base can watch winners, but so Vancouver has something to work with in time of need, which they have had lots of, and to provide the middling prospects they have down here with every possible chance of developing to their full potential. Oh, and if you send an actual top prospect here you want him to have the specific type of player that will best fix his game, like simply having play making centers who give wingers a chance to play the wing instead of having to do everything by themselves which naturally only the sheer elite players can attempt to accomplish. Virtanen couldn't go it alone. You read into that what you will.
How many times do I have to explain all of this to you?
Besides Willie? How about his brother, Alex, taking it one step further with Buffalo starting out at the beginning of the season at 18. Their dad realized the importance of getting them into the NA pro game as early as possible while circumventing the CHL rule. Those kids over there see how Willie and Alex did it. There will be more to follow. It's going to be the new wave with elite European kids because the NHL and I-I-I-I, yes I, are all fully aware that Canadian Jrs can't do the same thing. Where you come off insisting I don't know that is mind boggling. At least two NHL GMs have figured out in a big way and all of the NHL GMs are "monkey see, monkey do" so they will jump in line to be next. I haven't actually looked it up, but I'd bet they have started already.
Keep drinking the Lindbenning Kool-Aid that they will do what is best for Dahlen. They'll spin it that way, but Dahlen is going to do what is best for his wallet. He's going to go back to Sweden and make a bigger paycheck in a league that isn't very physical on a much bigger ice surface where he has more time and space to play his game. Benning already said he wanted him to be in Utica next season. He has seen the benefits of a high draft pick playing AHL here ahead of the rest. He watched Willie in Toronto play on Utica ice. He's likely seen video of Alex as well. Knowing all this, the shrewd manipulator that he is, then gave in to Jonathan's agent's demands of NHL or back to Sewden. Think that guy learned from the Tryamkin issue? Benning is now an open book and every other GM and agent is reading it cover to cover.
Dahlen should be playing on a smaller NA rink, learning how to ply his game in smaller spaces, requiring faster thinking, quicker actions, recognizing what contact on every shift is like, and learning how to deal with all these aspects of the pro game before he just steps into the NHL and then has to deal with it as on the job training. That's not how you want your young European star to start out his career, but that's the only way it can be with that clause. Goldobin did it the right way. I'm not sure he understands both ends of the ice, but he knows how to get to the right spots on the smaller ice to score goals. He told me, "I want to score goals." He then scored 4 of them, 2 each in 2 games and everyone of them was a goal scorers goal and they were things of beauty. I believe he is going to try and keep that part of his game going. He will have to learn some semblance of what to do in the other end and I believe that's what San Jose was doing, playing him in the AHL when he was acquired.
As to his draft classes:
#1
- Demko. Playing in utica
- Virtanen. Playing in Utica and he wasn't supposed to ever be here.
- McCann, Forsling traded.
- Tryamkin went back home.
- Stewart has one more ECHL season before he gets his release.
- Pettit not exactly a very impressive overage Jr season.
#2
- Guillauime Brisebois will be a Comet.
- Gaudete back to college for his 3rd year. Most come out after 2.
- Zhukenov looks to be signing back home. Have to wait and see.
- Neil, Jasek, and Olson. Forgive me for not getting overly excited, but signing these guys might not even happen. Neill has had the most impressive season as a 20 year old JR. They look more like ECHL than AHL players.
So after Brisebois, maybe Neill ends up in Utica where he will be another major project.
(I already saw Neill last season in Utica practice sessions and he didn't exactly stand out. I watch practice without identifying new players so I can see if they suddenly pop up. Rodin, Goldobin, Baertschi, Horvat, and Robak did. Never would have noticed Neill if I hadn't decided to look for him after half the first practice. Have to say MacEwen did poke his head up at the end of this season, McKenzie not so much.)
#3 Stukel (53pts in 70GP at 20), Abols (50pts in 52GP at 21), and McKenzie (67pts in 67GP at 20) are eligible, but nothing sticks out at the moment. Maybe McKenzie and I assume he will be in Utica, maybe Abols as well.
Hopefully Neill, Olson, Jasek, Zhukenov, McKenzie, Stukel, Abols, MacEwen, Chatfield, and Molino (forgive me if I've left someone out) give a good showing in preseason camp. However, these guys combined with what Utica definitely has coming back, barring trades, still lack the skilled play making centers and the scoring wingers along with the two veteran D-men they need. This would be a very poor AHL team as it stands. There is still no serious recall depth for the Canucks. To get depth you have to go out and be aggressive about getting it.
We'll just have to wait and see if Linden and Benning hold true to their word. Both have said it's on them for the not so good job that's been done in Utica the past 2 seasons and they intend to fix that.
Almost every NHL team has a person they assign from the top club to oversee their farm team. Call him an AGM as Vancouver did, AHL GM like some others have done, or simply the Director of Minor League personnel or some such title, but they have an overseer with the authority to pull some strings. Salaries of acquisitions have to be cleared if they don't have a budget to work within and some have that, but it's usually a formality. Vancouver has admittedly overlooked that responsibility and Benning can't do it. He is in charge and has to get someone competent on board to carry that load for him.
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