Value of: Johnny Gaudreau to Columbus

[Mazatt]

Even or not... habe you heard of trends?? It's very basic bockey IQ knowledge that Vancouver is trending up and at a high pace.. Edmonton a bit slower but heading in the right direction. Calgary is neutral or taking a step back.. Edmonton got better this off season.. yes Calgary fans that sucks to say but the Oilers will be better... Vancouver will be better.. Vegas st Louis Colorado Dallas all better ... thats leaves the flames fighting with Nashville and winnipeg ( if format stays same) for a playoff spot.. not a easy task as many view winnipeg ahead . Again losing brodie will be felt. Can the goaltending finally come through? What Johnny G shows up? His value took a nose dive last season

If I were to refer to your own statement: Habe you heard of trends?? Even if you beleive that because Calgary had a down year, that will continue, you can't argue that Winnipeg or Nashville are any closer to trending upwards. Because of that you have to ackowledge Calgary better than at least Winnipeg (especially considering they barely snuck into the play-ins thanks to Hellebuyck carrying them past a horrifically bad defence). If you want to use the argument of trends--which realistically hold zero weight--then you can't argue Winnipeg over Calgary.

But that's useless because trends don't mean anything, even in season you'll see wild hot streaks flicker out, and it's impossible to get a long-term prognosis of a player based off of one season--Fiala isn't going to be a #1 winger the rest of his career because he had an insane latter half to the year. So to suggest that Vancouver is trending up when they had a series of career highs (similar to Calgary in 2018-19) to get them to this spot, and are downgrading in net (Demko is unproven and there's a reason 'cup-winning' Holtby wasn't getting extended). In fact, 2018-19 Calgary was amazing yet they weren't as good the next year--trends don't mean anything. If you can look at the actual makeup of rosters and describe to me just how those teams will be better, ok, I can maybe see where you're coming from, but assuming the other teams the Flames are competing with are going to have linear progressions upwards, that's silly.

As well, no one is arguing the move from Brodie -> Tanev is strictly better (Maybe one person), the idea is that Tanev alongside the progressions of the next young defensive core for the Flames outweighs the differenc between Brodie and Tanev.

 

[Byrral]

With Torts as his coach where he wants you to play in your opponents face every night?

False.

Torts wants you to give your all and play a 200 foot game. Most former Tort's coached players that choose to comment on Torts say he made them better players. You can check and play a 200 ft game without being a physical player.

Gaudreau would be fine with Torts (he'd fit great on the CBJ although it won't happen). Players like Panarin and Bjorkstrand "check" in the system without having to be "in your face".

Tort's has made mistakes in the past and he's still not the best coach to deal with. But he's hardly the same coach he was 10 years ago and not the coach you make him out to be.

And I'm not even a Torts fan.

 

[elitepete]

Brodie from 2014-2016 was a 2-way force for the Flames. No chance Tanev was better then.

Tanev was arguably the best skater on the planet when it came to preventing the other team from scoring goals. So yes there is a chance Tanev was better. And he was.

 

[elitepete]

Tanev has slowly developed into a worse version of himself. Tanev might be better at the physical aspects of defending, but Brodie's a much better skater, infinitely better in transition, and still has good defensive instincts and a very good stick. I'd take Brodie over Tanev 10 times out of 10, even at an extra 500k/year.

Another Flames fan that didn’t watch Tanev this season.

 

[MoeBartoli]

Where are the mods to reign in this thread so it’s back on topic? Right now the title should be renamed to PotPourri

 

[majormajor]

Where are the mods to reign in this thread so it’s back on topic? Right now the title should be renamed to PotPourri

We need a permanent "Alberta Shitpost Thread", all Battle of Alberta shitposts have to be made in that thread only, everything else gets a ban.

 

[majormajor]

With Torts as his coach where he wants you to play in your opponents face every night?

If you play with heart and give your best Torts will love you. He understands not every player can battle in the corners. The guys he doesn't like are the powerful players that don't give their all (e.g. Saad).

 

[Jerkbait]

If I were to refer to your own statement: Habe you heard of trends?? Even if you beleive that because Calgary had a down year, that will continue, you can't argue that Winnipeg or Nashville are any closer to trending upwards. Because of that you have to ackowledge Calgary better than at least Winnipeg (especially considering they barely snuck into the play-ins thanks to Hellebuyck carrying them past a horrifically bad defence). If you want to use the argument of trends--which realistically hold zero weight--then you can't argue Winnipeg over Calgary.

But that's useless because trends don't mean anything, even in season you'll see wild hot streaks flicker out, and it's impossible to get a long-term prognosis of a player based off of one season--Fiala isn't going to be a #1 winger the rest of his career because he had an insane latter half to the year. So to suggest that Vancouver is trending up when they had a series of career highs (similar to Calgary in 2018-19) to get them to this spot, and are downgrading in net (Demko is unproven and there's a reason 'cup-winning' Holtby wasn't getting extended). In fact, 2018-19 Calgary was amazing yet they weren't as good the next year--trends don't mean anything. If you can look at the actual makeup of rosters and describe to me just how those teams will be better, ok, I can maybe see where you're coming from, but assuming the other teams the Flames are competing with are going to have linear progressions upwards, that's silly.

As well, no one is arguing the move from Brodie -> Tanev is strictly better (Maybe one person), the idea is that Tanev alongside the progressions of the next young defensive core for the Flames outweighs the differenc between Brodie and Tanev.

This isn't hard...evem if you think it is or want it to be... ill keep it as simple as I can for you and fill in the blanks ...the best players on the Oilers are better than the best players on Calgary. They haven't even hit their prime. No matter who Calgary adds the Oilers are still gonna have the better 2 offensive players period. These guys are game changers. Combine this with the speed they can play and now they add a top flight offensive D man in barrie and their powerplay will better See where this is going? Both teams had a far better PP and Edmontons is sure to get even better.Now Vancouver, even younger core.. One could agrue their best offensive guys are better as well. They added stability in net and a winning pedigree. Their best D is light years younger than Gio...see the trend here ?? Adding an older slower injury prone tanev only made that gap bigger. Vancouver had 4 players over 20 goals, Calgary didn't. Calagrys top 4 scorers were all minus players as well.. OK seems minimal maybe but look st the big picture. For Calagary to succeed a least 2 or 3 of these west teams are gonna have to stumble..who is gonna be?

 

[Halla]

interesting to look back in hindsight. Murray gone for a 5th, Calgary gets a better tender in Markstrom anyways and keeps Gaudreau.

Columbus did NOTHING

 

[Mazatt]

This isn't hard...evem if you think it is or want it to be... ill keep it as simple as I can for you and fill in the blanks ...the best players on the Oilers are better than the best players on Calgary. They haven't even hit their prime. No matter who Calgary adds the Oilers are still gonna have the better 2 offensive players period. These guys are game changers. Combine this with the speed they can play and now they add a top flight offensive D man in barrie and their powerplay will better See where this is going? Both teams had a far better PP and Edmontons is sure to get even better.Now Vancouver, even younger core.. One could agrue their best offensive guys are better as well. They added stability in net and a winning pedigree. Their best D is light years younger than Gio...see the trend here ?? Adding an older slower injury prone tanev only made that gap bigger. Vancouver had 4 players over 20 goals, Calgary didn't. Calagrys top 4 scorers were all minus players as well.. OK seems minimal maybe but look st the big picture. For Calagary to succeed a least 2 or 3 of these west teams are gonna have to stumble..who is gonna be?

You have absolutely terrible logic that does not line up at all. We're looking at the next season. That makes the age of players a year out unnecessary. As far as we are aware, Giordano is going to continue being a top 4 d-man into next season. You've also described the issue with the Oilers--they are a two man team. As well, they had an impossibly high powerplay percentage that, when viewed in the context of other top PP%'s is sure to go down. There was an analysis of the top 5 or so historic PP%'s the season after they were set were below average, while Barrie struggled in Toronto. IF we are basing the ideas off of your "last year counts" which is how you argue Vancouver's top players ahead of Calgary's, then Barrie is a 2nd pairing PP specialist d-man that will get caved in offensively. You keep going back to this idea of trends yet all of the actual, statistical trends show you're completely off base with thinking the Oilers historic numbers are somehow going to just keep building upwards.

Then you look at Vancouver. Woo! They're younger, but what exactly does that translate to? You quoted their goal scoring of "4 players!" except Calgary had 3 20 goal scorers, with Lindholm scoring more than any Canuck. So that's cherry picked garbage and you know it. Then again we get to a younger core, which seemingly ignores the fact Calgary's core is in their mid to early twenties, so that means jack shit. Then you bring up Holtby and once again ignore why he didn't get re-signed by Washington. He is not an elite 'cup winning' goaltender anymore, he was washed this past season. Based on your earlier logic, that means he's bad since his last season is bad. But let's say that we can look at years prior, that means we get to include the year Gaudreau and Monahan put up more points than any current Canuck, we get to include Backlund being a selke calibre centre, we get to include Lindholm potting 30, and it keeps going on.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

You have absolutely terrible logic that does not line up at all. We're looking at the next season. That makes the age of players a year out unnecessary. As far as we are aware, Giordano is going to continue being a top 4 d-man into next season. You've also described the issue with the Oilers--they are a two man team. As well, they had an impossibly high powerplay percentage that, when viewed in the context of other top PP%'s is sure to go down. There was an analysis of the top 5 or so historic PP%'s the season after they were set were below average, while Barrie struggled in Toronto. IF we are basing the ideas off of your "last year counts" which is how you argue Vancouver's top players ahead of Calgary's, then Barrie is a 2nd pairing PP specialist d-man that will get caved in offensively. You keep going back to this idea of trends yet all of the actual, statistical trends show you're completely off base with thinking the Oilers historic numbers are somehow going to just keep building upwards.

Then you look at Vancouver. Woo! They're younger, but what exactly does that translate to? You quoted their goal scoring of "4 players!" except Calgary had 3 20 goal scorers, with Lindholm scoring more than any Canuck. So that's cherry picked garbage and you know it. Then again we get to a younger core, which seemingly ignores the fact Calgary's core is in their mid to early twenties, so that means jack shit. Then you bring up Holtby and once again ignore why he didn't get re-signed by Washington. He is not an elite 'cup winning' goaltender anymore, he was washed this past season. Based on your earlier logic, that means he's bad since his last season is bad. But let's say that we can look at years prior, that means we get to include the year Gaudreau and Monahan put up more points than any current Canuck, we get to include Backlund being a selke calibre centre, we get to include Lindholm potting 30, and it keeps going on.

I would stop wasting your time with him, he is incredibly biased against Calgary in almost every thread. In June he tried to argue with me that Jake Guentzel is not only a better player than Gaudreau but significantly better, then said Gaudreau is trending down and Guentzel is trending up due to being a "younger player." He then made this bet with me, "Not only will Jake score more points in the playoffs he will score more goals, more points and higher PPG than Johnny next full season. Take that to the bank...prediction for next full season jake 39 goals 43 assists 82 points...johnny 23 goals 53 assists 76 points ..." Glad that post aged well.

 

[Nucker101]

Columbus fans really really (still) love Josh Anderson

 

[Aurinko]

While Gaudreau has the speed and is definitely capable of playing the extremely defensive style they demand from forwards, CBJ is still in dire need of a top tier natural scorer that can just carry the game by scoring at will.

Mr. Hockey's stats from last season suggest that he is not that player:

He would be a great addition to the Columbus team, but his contract value is currently low and so would be the value for Calgary if they decided to trade him now.

 

[Fro]

Columbus fans really really (still) love Josh Anderson

Most of us didn't want him to go...so yeah...

 

[hmc1987]

Watching other teams NOW try to dump payroll, makes me think Jarmo was smart for moving them for what he did. Ofcourse they are worth more, but not in a flat cap world. Do you think Johnson from TBL is a cap dump? Because he couldn't be given away for free. Tampa will likely have to attach an asset with him to move him. And if Jarmo wouldve waited till now; Murray or Nuti would cost CBJ an asset to move. And both have been pushed to the 3rd pairing. And a combined 6+m for a 3rd pairing is too much.

Jarmo will come out a GENIUS if this works out. GENIUS.

Welcome Sergachev, Cirelli, Cernak XD XD XD

 

[Jerkbait]

You have absolutely terrible logic that does not line up at all. We're looking at the next season. That makes the age of players a year out unnecessary. As far as we are aware, Giordano is going to continue being a top 4 d-man into next season. You've also described the issue with the Oilers--they are a two man team. As well, they had an impossibly high powerplay percentage that, when viewed in the context of other top PP%'s is sure to go down. There was an analysis of the top 5 or so historic PP%'s the season after they were set were below average, while Barrie struggled in Toronto. IF we are basing the ideas off of your "last year counts" which is how you argue Vancouver's top players ahead of Calgary's, then Barrie is a 2nd pairing PP specialist d-man that will get caved in offensively. You keep going back to this idea of trends yet all of the actual, statistical trends show you're completely off base with thinking the Oilers historic numbers are somehow going to just keep building upwards.

Then you look at Vancouver. Woo! They're younger, but what exactly does that translate to? You quoted their goal scoring of "4 players!" except Calgary had 3 20 goal scorers, with Lindholm scoring more than any Canuck. So that's cherry picked garbage and you know it. Then again we get to a younger core, which seemingly ignores the fact Calgary's core is in their mid to early twenties, so that means jack shit. Then you bring up Holtby and once again ignore why he didn't get re-signed by Washington. He is not an elite 'cup winning' goaltender anymore, he was washed this past season. Based on your earlier logic, that means he's bad since his last season is bad. But let's say that we can look at years prior, that means we get to include the year Gaudreau and Monahan put up more points than any current Canuck, we get to include Backlund being a selke calibre centre, we get to include Lindholm potting 30, and it keeps going on.

Sound logic backed by facts and stats. Sometimes the truth hurts pal....let it go.. flames finish behind oilers and Canucks this year.......yawn

 

[majormajor]

Columbus fans really really (still) love Josh Anderson

Because he's a damn good hockey player, pretty simple.

While Gaudreau has the speed and is definitely capable of playing the extremely defensive style they demand from forwards, CBJ is still in dire need of a top tier natural scorer that can just carry the game by scoring at will.

Mr. Hockey's stats from last season suggest that he is not that player:
View attachment 374787


He would be a great addition to the Columbus team, but his contract value is currently low and so would be the value for Calgary if they decided to trade him now.

I think you're off the mark here. Gaudreau is coming off a down year but he's a great assist guy and a great PP guy. And those are the things the Jackets need the most. The roster is littered with former 20 and 30 goal men (heck even a recent 40 goal man). They're a poor passing team with little playmaking skill. Gaudreau is a transition monster that feeds guys in dangerous situations, that's exactly what the team needs.

Also, you put him with Dubois and it's a massive upgrade at both ends over Monahan, who frankly has been carried by Gaudreau for years. Gaudreau can be shut down on the Flames because he is far and away the best player on his line, easy to double team. Put him next to Dubois and it's much harder to defend.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

While Gaudreau has the speed and is definitely capable of playing the extremely defensive style they demand from forwards, CBJ is still in dire need of a top tier natural scorer that can just carry the game by scoring at will.

Mr. Hockey's stats from last season suggest that he is not that player:

Since he joined the league, Gaudreau is 15th in even strength goals. He's done that despite playing with a center who is predominantly a triggerman, and a rotating door of right wingers.

Funny enough, he has more ES goals than "natural goal scorer" Sean Monahan over those 6 years despite playing 3 less games.

He's scored as many or more ES goals than
Scheifele
Monahan
Mackinnon
Malkin
Pavelski
Forsberg
Benn
Atkinson
Lee
Stone
Gallagher

Gaudreau is absolutely a natural goal scorer. Give him a play driving center and he'd be a consistent threat to score 40+ goals. His hands down best attribute is his ability to find soft spots in coverage and use his elite anticipation to score tons of goals around the net.

 

[Aurinko]

Since he joined the league, Gaudreau is 15th in even strength goals. He's done that despite playing with a center who is predominantly a triggerman, and a rotating door of right wingers.

Funny enough, he has more ES goals than "natural goal scorer" Sean Monahan over those 6 years despite playing 3 less games.

He's scored as many or more ES goals than
Scheifele
Monahan
Mackinnon
Malkin
Pavelski
Forsberg
Benn
Atkinson
Lee
Stone
Gallagher

Gaudreau is absolutely a natural goal scorer. Give him a play driving center and he'd be a consistent threat to score 40+ goals. His hands down best attribute is his ability to find soft spots in coverage and use his elite anticipation to score tons of goals around the net.

Gaudreau has career stats of a natural scorer, and he will probably bounce back, but would you make room for a 6M$ top line forward that had an 18goal season with 8% shot ?

If I had any better knowledge about the player, his motivation, condition etc. I might have a different view.

 

[majormajor]

Gaudreau has career stats of a natural scorer, and he will probably bounce back, but would you make room for a 6M$ top line forward that had an 18goal season with 8% shot ?

If I had any better knowledge about the player, his motivation, condition etc. I might have a different view.

If that's by far the worst season for the guy than yes, you absolutely bet on him making a comeback.

I don't even know why you mention his salary. 58 pts in 70 games for $6m? Nothing amiss there, and that's a down season for the player.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Gaudreau has career stats of a natural scorer, and he will probably bounce back, but would you make room for a 6M$ top line forward that had an 18goal season with 8% shot ?

Is that a serious question? Absolutely. The guy is one season removed from a 36 goal 99 point campaign.

 

[Volica]

Mentioned it a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away; Columbus doesn’t have the goods to swing a trade for Johnny that wouldn’t gut their team completely.

Also doesn’t make sense in terms of long term; if Gaudreau truly doesn’t want to stay in Calgary (all rumour and speculation) he sure as hell won’t want to stay in Ohio either.

I don’t think the Flames are looking to move Johnny. I’m becoming more certain Monahan will be the guy dealt.

 

[CanadienShark]

Edmonton improved their defense by adding a guy that cant play defense....and they still have Smith, the great equalizer.

They need an offensive d-man. Barrie is low risk, high reward.

Bear, Larsson, Barrie is a solid group of RHD no matter how you spin it or order pairings. Klefbom and Nurse on the left side is good as well.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

interesting to look back in hindsight. Murray gone for a 5th, Calgary gets a better tender in Markstrom anyways and keeps Gaudreau.

Columbus did NOTHING

Well, not quite nothing.

Columbus fans really really (still) love Josh Anderson

And why not? Some CBJ fans also really (now) love Max Domi.

 

[treple13]

Where are the mods to reign in this thread so it’s back on topic? Right now the title should be renamed to PotPourri

This thread had a stupid topic, and so it should probably just stop existing