Confirmed with Link: John Tortorella is the New Head Coach

[CBJWerenski8]

But one thing I'm mulling over - the issue with Torts system in the past was that he wore his players down physically. So it might be that he's deliberately giving the guys a rest so they're ready to go next year. The Jackets are markedly less physical than they've been in the recent past. Last year was freak injuries, this year they were out of contention, but prior to that this was one of the most physical teams in the league. It seems to be the only way some of these guys get into the game - by hitting.

They got rid of that identity. The players who were used to hit were mostly the 4th line guys, and the rest of the guys just jumped aboard off their energy. MacKenzie, Comeau, Dorsett, Boll, and Dubinsky were the guys who started the physical play. Then came along Jenner. We had big bodies like Anisimov who absorbed hits. Now only Dubinsky and Jenner remain, and their roles aren't what they used to be, they're supposed to be the offensive guys now rather than the 3rd liners. Totally different dynamic now. Wennberg, Karlsson, Bjork, Milano, Cam, etc have no business hitting, and that's the majority of our top 6 right now.

 

[WannabeFinn]

They got rid of that identity. The players who were used to hit were mostly the 4th line guys, and the rest of the guys just jumped aboard off their energy. MacKenzie, Comeau, Dorsett, Boll, and Dubinsky were the guys who started the physical play. Then came along Jenner. We had big bodies like Anisimov who absorbed hits. Now only Dubinsky and Jenner remain, and their roles aren't what they used to be, they're supposed to be the offensive guys now rather than the 3rd liners. Totally different dynamic now. Wennberg, Karlsson, Bjork, Milano, Cam, etc have no business hitting, and that's the majority of our top 6 right now.

Yup. We were a lot more physical when guys like Dubi, Jenner, Comeau, Foligno, and MacKenzie were in our bottom 6.

 

[Johnny Jacket]

We're a cold mess!

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

They got rid of that identity. The players who were used to hit were mostly the 4th line guys, and the rest of the guys just jumped aboard off their energy. MacKenzie, Comeau, Dorsett, Boll, and Dubinsky were the guys who started the physical play. Then came along Jenner. We had big bodies like Anisimov who absorbed hits. Now only Dubinsky and Jenner remain, and their roles aren't what they used to be, they're supposed to be the offensive guys now rather than the 3rd liners. Totally different dynamic now. Wennberg, Karlsson, Bjork, Milano, Cam, etc have no business hitting, and that's the majority of our top 6 right now.

Yup. We were a lot more physical when guys like Dubi, Jenner, Comeau, Foligno, and MacKenzie were in our bottom 6.

No player has "no business hitting." That kind of engagement raises the level of play, at least for that individual player. It needs to be a tool in everyone's game, even if one used less than others.

There is some question in my mind, though, what kind of team is being/has been assembled here.

 

[CBJSlash]

A general organizational sentiment of "if we are healthy" poisoned us. What does trying to stay healthy look like? It poisoned our mentality and we lost our identity.

I trust this will never be the case after a Torts training camp.


Next man up vs. If we're healthy -- the direction should be clear -- last summer, it wasn't.

 

[BluejacketNut]

We've always wanted this hard working, tough to play against mentality, but rarely have we ever been built to play that style. There's another team that has that mentality, but has done it successfully.....the LA Kings. But when you see the Kings, theyre monsters! We want to play like the big boys, but stock our team with smaller players. That style is a punishing style on the body, smaller bodies cant hold up to that all season.

 

[Mayor Bee]

When Tort was hired, I thought he had a decent shot of getting the then-worst team in the league a postseason berth by the end of the season.

The reality is, we didn't do much better under him than we did under Richards. We should have fired Richards at the end of last season so we could have made a move for Babcock. We didn't and we paid the price.

Firing Richards after a 15-1-1 finish that happened to coincide with the only time all year that the team was mostly healthy would have been one of the most embarrassingly bad moves imaginable. Just absurdly bad; the optics would have been horrendous, and the idea of throwing away a known thing for the (very remote) possibility of getting Babcock would have been so incredibly stupid that I don't know where to begin.

For all of Babcock's glowing reputation, the simple fact is that in ten years with Detroit, including the entire primes of Datsyuk and Zetterberg and seven years of an ageless Lidstrom, he won one Cup. They didn't make it past the second round in seven of those ten years. And it was widely known that Toronto was going to break the bank for him as soon as he became available.

 

[Mayor Bee]

[deleted]

 

[BluejacketNut]

Babcock would have dropped the phone from laughing so much. I'd go out on a limb and say there was actually a negative % chance of getting Babcock

 

[major major]

They got rid of that identity. The players who were used to hit were mostly the 4th line guys, and the rest of the guys just jumped aboard off their energy. MacKenzie, Comeau, Dorsett, Boll, and Dubinsky were the guys who started the physical play. Then came along Jenner. We had big bodies like Anisimov who absorbed hits. Now only Dubinsky and Jenner remain, and their roles aren't what they used to be, they're supposed to be the offensive guys now rather than the 3rd liners. Totally different dynamic now. Wennberg, Karlsson, Bjork, Milano, Cam, etc have no business hitting, and that's the majority of our top 6 right now.

I think you're overstating it, and confusing things with this false dichotomy between 3rd line and offensive guys.

In the early Richards years the "energy"/hitting was mostly Dorsett and Boll from the fourth line. That wasn't exceptional - lots of 4th lines do that. What was special was in the later years, especially the playoff year. We had 5 hitters in the league's top 30: Foligno, Mackenzie, Dubinsky, Jenner, Comeau. Dubinsky and Jenner are still in the league's top 30. You don't need to play in the bottom six to be a hitter. And if anything, I'd say the character of the team is more determined by having said character in your main lines. E.G.: the Isles aren't that physical, just Martin and Clutterbuck on the 4th line. So having Dubinsky and Jenner hit from the top line is better, not worse.

Foligno's hits are down about 25% from then, but still fairly high. After that group, there is a big drop-off, and that is where Jarmo deserves some blame. Mackenzie and Comeau were excellent for their roles. Campbell and Boll are just as nasty and would like to hit that much but don't have the speed to actually catch their opponents. The one guy we have on the horizon who can join the hitters group is Anderson. There isn't room or $ right now for a journeyman hitter like Comeau, Mackenzie, or Dorsett.

But I would agree if you were to say that Jarmo/JD didn't properly value that identity.

 

[major major]

We've always wanted this hard working, tough to play against mentality, but rarely have we ever been built to play that style. There's another team that has that mentality, but has done it successfully.....the LA Kings. But when you see the Kings, theyre monsters! We want to play like the big boys, but stock our team with smaller players. That style is a punishing style on the body, smaller bodies cant hold up to that all season.

I'd tweak this account a bit. The Jackets have at times been a fairly big team. "They're monsters" was used by some Eastern Conference opponents in reference to the Jackets, believe it or not. They're still decently big and nasty, though that could change if guys like Foligno and Hartnell are shipped out for the kids, as some would like.

But the Kings comparison really puts the Jackets to shame. The Kings are huge AND they can control the puck. The Jackets still excel at winning the puck through physical play but don't have the passing to possess it. The Jackets have no real choice but to try and inject some more skilled players, size be damned, because you can't win if you can't keep the puck.

 

[stevo61]

I think you're overstating it, and confusing things with this false dichotomy between 3rd line and offensive guys.

In the early Richards years the "energy"/hitting was mostly Dorsett and Boll from the fourth line. That wasn't exceptional - lots of 4th lines do that. What was special was in the later years, especially the playoff year. We had 5 hitters in the league's top 30: Foligno, Mackenzie, Dubinsky, Jenner, Comeau. Dubinsky and Jenner are still in the league's top 30. You don't need to play in the bottom six to be a hitter. And if anything, I'd say the character of the team is more determined by having said character in your main lines. E.G.: the Isles aren't that physical, just Martin and Clutterbuck on the 4th line. So having Dubinsky and Jenner hit from the top line is better, not worse.

Foligno's hits are down about 25% from then, but still fairly high. After that group, there is a big drop-off, and that is where Jarmo deserves some blame. Mackenzie and Comeau were excellent for their roles. Campbell and Boll are just as nasty and would like to hit that much but don't have the speed to actually catch their opponents. The one guy we have on the horizon who can join the hitters group is Anderson. There isn't room or $ right now for a journeyman hitter like Comeau, Mackenzie, or Dorsett.

But I would agree if you were to say that Jarmo/JD didn't properly value that identity.

I think they don't want that full out Identity though. I think he likes players with that edge but as seen with the drafting of Wennberg, Milano, Bjorkstrand he's realized hes needed to infuse some skill in there too. As you point out Dubi, Jenner and to an extent Foligno play that way, plus we have a couple D that lay some nice hits. Also as you bring up Anderson is on his way and I know he's a year or 2 behind but I'm a lot more excited about Kolesar then Ive ever been about Anderson.

On a side note and back to CBJWennbergs post.... Anisimov sure did absorb hits

 

[CBJSlash]

More important than any coach is momentum.

We haven't had a good feeling in the room for longer than a week during the entire season. I don't care how talented or well coached a team is, momentum is more important.

He took a team that was 0-7, we didn't get a good feeling in the room. As soon as we've been eliminated from the playoffs, we have lost momentum.


The good news is that doesn't mean teaching and learning isn't happening. Players will improve individuals.

If he has this team in the best possible shape, a little swagger and wins 6 out of his first 10 next year, we will likely be okay.


What did we have this year, a three game winning streak? That may be an NHL record.

 

[CharlotteJacket]

Dave King, Doug MacLean, Gerard Gallant, Ken Hitchcock, Scott Arniel, Todd Richards and now John Tortarella. At some point were going to have to quit blaming the coaches and realize there is a deeply flawed part of this organization which prohibits us from acquiring and developing championship NHL players.

 

[Cowumbus]

I could care less about hits. Hits mean your team does not have the puck.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I could care less about hits. Hits mean your team does not have the puck.

You do know that hitting is one of the ways your team gets the puck?

 

[major major]

I could care less about hits. Hits mean your team does not have the puck.

The Kings are in the top of both hits and possession of the puck. And the Jackets best year was when they were right up there with the Kings.

High hits total can be an indicator of having less possession, but that's only a part of it.

 

[Johansen2Foligno]

We need to trade for Dustin Brown.

 

[DarkandStormy]

We need to trade for Dustin Brown.

Clarkson for Brown?

 

[major major]

Dave King, Doug MacLean, Gerard Gallant, Ken Hitchcock, Scott Arniel, Todd Richards and now John Tortarella. At some point were going to have to quit blaming the coaches and realize there is a deeply flawed part of this organization which prohibits us from acquiring and developing championship NHL players.

This is the kind of lazy thinking that leads to idiotic purges. Personnel has turned over several times, and it's not like the ownership just went out and hired some rando - JD/Jarmo are well respected around the league and have substantial autonomy.

How many times do you flip a coin before you can conclude that the coin is not fair? The Jackets are what, 2-14? That's not implausible. You could come up with that by chance many times. You can have bad luck.

Of course this isn't a coin, and incompetence has played a role in Jackets history. The more accurate rendering is that the Jackets were an expansion team that had a terrible start. Doug Maclean left this team with very little talent. And Howson did well with what he had, but it takes years if you're starting from scratch. The last of Howson's draft picks (Murray, Jenner, Anderson, Korpi, etc..) don't even enter their prime years until 2017-18 or 2018-19.

Starting in 2007 the Jackets draft picks have not underperformed the players drafted around them, and most of the trades since then have not been a problem. It just takes a long time. Bad luck can happen. I'm certain it's not the music or the accommodating personality of Columbus. That's prima facie ridiculous.

 

[CBJ Bob]

And Howson did well with what he had, but it takes years if you're starting from scratch. The last of Howson's draft picks (Murray, Jenner, Anderson, Korpi, etc..) don't even enter their prime years until 2017-18 or 2018-19.

Starting in 2007 the Jackets draft picks have not underperformed the players drafted around them, and most of the trades since then have not been a problem. It just takes a long time. Bad luck can happen. I'm certain it's not the music or the accommodating personality of Columbus. That's prima facie ridiculous.

I will not be as kind about XGMSH. Nikita Filatov had real K9 blood in him. Overall His drafting was better than MacLean's (not saying much). Some trades were okay but the Jeff Carter Trade was a disaster. He stuck us with Commadore. Signed Mason to a big and long deal after a bad season. Worst of all he brought in Scott Arneil. Overall he was very bad. I will give JD/JK more time.

 

[NotWendell]

I will not be as kind about XGMSH. Nikita Filatov had real K9 blood in him. Overall His drafting was better than MacLean's (not saying much). Some trades were okay but the Jeff Carter Trade was a disaster. He stuck us with Commadore. Signed Mason to a big and long deal after a bad season. Worst of all he brought in Scott Arneil. Overall he was very bad. I will give JD/JK more time.

So our GMs have gone from horrible to bad to (hopefully) mediocre at best. There's your problem with this franchise.

 

[Mayor Bee]

I will not be as kind about XGMSH. Nikita Filatov had real K9 blood in him. Overall His drafting was better than MacLean's (not saying much). Some trades were okay but the Jeff Carter Trade was a disaster. He stuck us with Commadore. Signed Mason to a big and long deal after a bad season. Worst of all he brought in Scott Arneil. Overall he was very bad. I will give JD/JK more time.

Any equally-applied standard that you use to blast Howson simply makes the current regime look so much worse.

To correct a big point, Mason was not signed "big and long"; it was a two-year deal at $2.9 mil per. That was easily below market value and hardly a long-term commitment.

And as long as we're talking about signing and trading, nothing, and I mean nothing, will ever compare to not insuring the biggest free agent signing in franchise history, then somehow making the situation even worse by then trading for the worst contract in NHL history with no salary/bonuses retained and no additional assets coming in. Willingly.

 

[Mayor Bee]

Dave King, Doug MacLean, Gerard Gallant, Ken Hitchcock, Scott Arniel, Todd Richards and now John Tortarella. At some point were going to have to quit blaming the coaches and realize there is a deeply flawed part of this organization which prohibits us from acquiring and developing championship NHL players.

It's weird to think that the only time that acquiring high-end players took place with a GM who was generally criticized for not being able to do exactly that, and developing them took place with a coach who was also generally criticized for not being able to do exactly that.

 

[major major]

I will not be as kind about XGMSH. Nikita Filatov had real K9 blood in him. Overall His drafting was better than MacLean's (not saying much). Some trades were okay but the Jeff Carter Trade was a disaster. He stuck us with Commadore. Signed Mason to a big and long deal after a bad season. Worst of all he brought in Scott Arneil. Overall he was very bad. I will give JD/JK more time.

My primary concern in this discussion is what changes the talent level in the org over the long run.

What coach you hire, what short term deal you give to your goalie, and what FA you sign makes little to no difference to long run talent. It pretty much comes down to drafting and to a smaller extent trading. And by that account Howson did well. Not amazing, but well.

As you probably know you don't get anywhere with me by citing anecdotes like Filatov. It has to be comprehensive accounting of Howson's draft choices relative to the players drafted around them.