Value of: John Gibson to the Leafs

[Anaheim4ever]

I'm really not picky about the return on Gibson because next season he's gonna be even worse since Lindholm and Manson are gone. They are better off trying to trade him before his value sinks any lower.

 

[Hockeylife2018]

Cept he’s shown he can be fantastic as recently as this year. Crazy!

But sure bring back Campbell and sign the mrazeks of the league… that way leaf fans can look to blame them after disappointing post seasons, so they don’t have to point to the real issues

What exactly do you mean by fantastic?
Hes still well below league average in every category...hell he's below Mikko kostkinen which you can probably sign for league min and save all your assets lol.
I'm not saying Gibson can't bounce back...I'm just saying I wouldn't be throwing some of these proposed packages at a goalie that's been in the bottom half of the league for 5 years now

 

[WhatTheDuck]

What exactly do you mean by fantastic?
Hes still well below league average in every category...hell he's below Mikko kostkinen which you can probably sign for league min and save all your assets lol.
I'm not saying Gibson can't bounce back...I'm just saying I wouldn't be throwing some of these proposed packages at a goalie that's been in the bottom half of the league for 5 years now

If you're only here to talk stats, it's a moot point. Everyone is aware his numbers haven't been good since the Ducks cratered as a team. Not really bringing anything to the conversation at this point.

NHL clubs employ pro scouting staffs, so that they don't have to rely on just stats to form an opinion. Those who watch Gibson with interest will clearly see that he's still a high end talent. Any discussion about trading for him will come from clubs who still believe in the talent despite the numbers.

If you put even the most elite goalie in the league (say Vasi) in front of the Ducks D for the past few years, especially the long stretches where they were missing at least one of Lindholm/Fowler/Manson, and even the best of the best are going to crack after awhile. There isn't a goalie in the league that could prop the Ducks recent rosters up to anything more than a bottom feeder, and their numbers would reflect that. The goal totals pile up and SV% drops, because at a certain point you're just going to not always feel up to splitting yourself in half to try and turn a 4-1 loss into a 2-1 loss.

For folks who think Gibson's talent has completely disappeared somehow, how did he manage to be in the Vezina conversation at mid season, behind a bottom feeder team? He carried the team on his back and was stealing them enough points to be a playoff team when their roster was clearly bottom three. No playoff team is going to need to ask that much of him.



Take this mid season game against Toronto for example. Say what you want about his stats as a whole, but talent wise there just aren't any more than a very small handful of goalies who are capable of these types of performances against top teams/players.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

If you're only here to talk stats, it's a moot point. Everyone is aware his numbers haven't been good since the Ducks cratered as a team. Not really bringing anything to the conversation at this point.

NHL clubs employ pro scouting staffs, so that they don't have to rely on just stats to form an opinion. Those who watch Gibson with interest will clearly see that he's still a high end talent. Any discussion about trading for him will come from clubs who still believe in the talent despite the numbers.

If you put even the most elite goalie in the league (say Vasi) in front of the Ducks D for the past few years, especially the long stretches where they were missing at least one of Lindholm/Fowler/Manson, and even the best of the best are going to crack after awhile. There isn't a goalie in the league that could prop the Ducks recent rosters up to anything more than a bottom feeder, and their numbers would reflect that. The goal totals pile up and SV% drops, because at a certain point you're just going to not always feel up to splitting yourself in half to try and turn a 4-1 loss into a 2-1 loss.

For folks who think Gibson's talent has completely disappeared somehow, how did he manage to be in the Vezina conversation at mid season, behind a bottom feeder team? He carried the team on his back and was stealing them enough points to be a playoff team when their roster was clearly bottom three. No playoff team is going to need to ask that much of him.



Take this mid season game against Toronto for example. Say what you want about his stats as a whole, but talent wise there just aren't any more than a very small handful of goalies who are capable of these types of performances against top teams/players.

Side note, I do NOT miss empty arenas

 

[thusk]

If you're only here to talk stats, it's a moot point. Everyone is aware his numbers haven't been good since the Ducks cratered as a team. Not really bringing anything to the conversation at this point.

NHL clubs employ pro scouting staffs, so that they don't have to rely on just stats to form an opinion. Those who watch Gibson with interest will clearly see that he's still a high end talent. Any discussion about trading for him will come from clubs who still believe in the talent despite the numbers.

If you put even the most elite goalie in the league (say Vasi) in front of the Ducks D for the past few years, especially the long stretches where they were missing at least one of Lindholm/Fowler/Manson, and even the best of the best are going to crack after awhile. There isn't a goalie in the league that could prop the Ducks recent rosters up to anything more than a bottom feeder, and their numbers would reflect that. The goal totals pile up and SV% drops, because at a certain point you're just going to not always feel up to splitting yourself in half to try and turn a 4-1 loss into a 2-1 loss.

For folks who think Gibson's talent has completely disappeared somehow, how did he manage to be in the Vezina conversation at mid season, behind a bottom feeder team? He carried the team on his back and was stealing them enough points to be a playoff team when their roster was clearly bottom three. No playoff team is going to need to ask that much of him.



Take this mid season game against Toronto for example. Say what you want about his stats as a whole, but talent wise there just aren't any more than a very small handful of goalies who are capable of these types of performances against top teams/players.

Game against leafs is a perfect exemple of how poor defensive play can affect goalie. He allowed 3 goal but he completly stole minimum 5 or 6 goal... the same exact game with campbell over gibson in net and maybe this game ending 9-1.

He finished at 0.932

If He allowing a 4th that drop at 0.909

If A fifth goal 0.886

In that exemple, even if he would have conceded 5 goal, it wouldn't be a bad game but statstitically i would like a bad game.

Stats dont say everything...

 

[Ishad]

Leaf fans are going to be sorely disappointed in Gibson. He’s a below average goaltender now.

 

[Tactical Quack]

This thread is dead

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

This thread is dead

no it's not there are 800+ responses

 

[Tactical Quack]

no it's not there are 800+ responses

Repeating the same thing for pages

 

[Hockeylife2018]

If you're only here to talk stats, it's a moot point. Everyone is aware his numbers haven't been good since the Ducks cratered as a team. Not really bringing anything to the conversation at this point.

NHL clubs employ pro scouting staffs, so that they don't have to rely on just stats to form an opinion. Those who watch Gibson with interest will clearly see that he's still a high end talent. Any discussion about trading for him will come from clubs who still believe in the talent despite the numbers.

If you put even the most elite goalie in the league (say Vasi) in front of the Ducks D for the past few years, especially the long stretches where they were missing at least one of Lindholm/Fowler/Manson, and even the best of the best are going to crack after awhile. There isn't a goalie in the league that could prop the Ducks recent rosters up to anything more than a bottom feeder, and their numbers would reflect that. The goal totals pile up and SV% drops, because at a certain point you're just going to not always feel up to splitting yourself in half to try and turn a 4-1 loss into a 2-1 loss.

For folks who think Gibson's talent has completely disappeared somehow, how did he manage to be in the Vezina conversation at mid season, behind a bottom feeder team? He carried the team on his back and was stealing them enough points to be a playoff team when their roster was clearly bottom three. No playoff team is going to need to ask that much of him.



Take this mid season game against Toronto for example. Say what you want about his stats as a whole, but talent wise there just aren't any more than a very small handful of goalies who are capable of these types of performances against top teams/players.

Great, so if koskinen has better numbers on what most of HF calls one of the weakest D corps in the league then he will Excell on Toronto

 

[Magic Man]

I'm really not picky about the return on Gibson because next season he's gonna be even worse since Lindholm and Manson are gone. They are better off trying to trade him before his value sinks any lower.

I agree here. If Gibson has one more season under a .905 save percentage, his value is essentially dead. There will not be 1st round picks and prospects coming back for him then. That would make him a cap dump and the Ducks are then stuck with him for another 4 years beyond that.

If you could milk the risky contract now for assets that seems like the right thing to do.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

Great, so if koskinen has better numbers on what most of HF calls one of the weakest D corps in the league then he will Excell on Toronto

It's not just about the D corps but the entire team itself. Edmonton has world class players to drive the play in their favor. Anaheim is starting to have some talented young players emerge, but since the decline of the Getzlaf/Perry/Kesler era, the best player on the team (besides Gibson) the past few seasons has been Hampus Lindholm, and he's had tough luck with injuries in recent years . It would have been fair to say up until the emergence of Terry and Zegras, that the Ducks didn't have a single first line forward since Getz declined from that level.

The team in front of Gibson for the better part of his declining statistical years has included one borderline #1/#2 D in Lindholm who has missed a ton of games (and then was dealt), Fowler who is maybe a 2/3 guy and Manson who is a solid #4 and also traded. Everyone else for the most part either middle six forwards at best, or strictly bottom pairing D. Tons of nights where they iced an AHL level blueline when at least two of the three above were out. Heck they spent over half of one of those seasons with Michael Del Zotto playing top 4 minutes because he was somehow #5 on the depth chart and someone was always out.

I think people really discount how other worldly Gibson would have to play on a nightly basis, just to make this roster remotely competitive. I don't think even the very best in the world hold up in those circumstances for 55+ games. If he's guilty of anything, he's perhaps not played with the same desperation that he could have, in some of the dog days of the season where the Ducks are down 2-0 early and showing zero signs of life. Quite a few of those games got away from him with goals that he just doesn't allow in games where he's really battling to steal a win.

Put your favourite goalie in the league in front of a team with zero first line forwards, and MDZ playing 20+ mins on the back end. They are going to have a lot of lonnnng nights.

 

[lwvs84]

What exactly do you mean by fantastic?
Hes still well below league average in every category...hell he's below Mikko kostkinen which you can probably sign for league min and save all your assets lol.
I'm not saying Gibson can't bounce back...I'm just saying I wouldn't be throwing some of these proposed packages at a goalie that's been in the bottom half of the league for 5 years now

Leafs should have gone after Grubauer last year... came off a sub 1.4 GAA and over .920 save %. I wonder what happened to him that affected his numbers so bad this season.

 

[Hockeylife2018]

Leafs should have gone after Grubauer last year... came off a sub 1.4 GAA and over .920 save %. I wonder what happened to him that affected his numbers so bad this season.

I'm not saying playing infront of a better team won't increase his numbers....I'm saying paying a premium for a goalie who's had declining numbers over the past 4 seasons is a gamble at best...
But sure I can cherry pick a player thats numbers didn't go up playing on a better team if you want

 

[lwvs84]

I'm not saying playing infront of a better team won't increase his numbers....I'm saying paying a premium for a goalie who's had declining numbers over the past 4 seasons is a gamble at best...
But sure I can cherry pick a player thats numbers didn't go up playing on a better team if you want

I also posted how goalie numbers have tanked under Eakins... 3 goalies, 3 times they dropped from over .915 to under .905 (the others aside from Gibson under .900). Every starter he's had has put up the absolute worst numbers of their career under him (even when they stay on the same team). Gibson probably will rebound too, Eakins is not a good coach for goalies. Also, I wouldn't call what most Ducks fans are asking for a premium... a late first and a good but not great (not to mention risky) prospect, plus whatever the cost of dumping a contract.

 

[zar]

I will never let the Ducks fans off the hook… and allow them to use an overall weaker team or Dallas Eakins as an excuse to dismiss stats. Apparently it wasn’t an accepted excuse 6-7 years ago and, for the sake of their own words, it shouldn’t be allowed today.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

I will never let the Ducks fans off the hook… and allow them to use an overall weaker team or Dallas Eakins as an excuse to dismiss stats. Apparently it wasn’t an accepted excuse 6-7 years ago and, for the sake of their own words, it shouldn’t be allowed today.

Yeah because that's definitely something every Ducks fan collectively stated and not just a small number around this forum, weird grudge to hold.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

I agree here. If Gibson has one more season under a .905 save percentage, his value is essentially dead. There will not be 1st round picks and prospects coming back for him then. That would make him a cap dump and the Ducks are then stuck with him for another 4 years beyond that.

If you could milk the risky contract now for assets that seems like the right thing to do.

The team in front of him basically had a machete taken to it's D core, so it just wouldn't be reasonable to expect his numbers to get better . But again that's why scouting exists to evaluate talent and not just statistics. No goalie in this league is propping up a D core led by Fowler, Drysdale and Shattenkirk.

 

[thusk]

I will never let the Ducks fans off the hook… and allow them to use an overall weaker team or Dallas Eakins as an excuse to dismiss stats. Apparently it wasn’t an accepted excuse 6-7 years ago and, for the sake of their own words, it shouldn’t be allowed today.

1- Im not a ducks fan

2- if someone really want gibson and didnt want to pay a reasonable price, ducks dont have any good reason to give away his best player at low price

3- im pretty sure the way you talked you didn't watched a single game of gibson outside than game against your team last 3 season like every body focussing on his stats. ts just so easy to see how alone Gibson was last 3 years when you watching ducks game...

 

[bsu]

Every playoff game that goes by Gibson gains more value... loving this keep it going. If the Leafs aren't interested there will be teams lining up after watching this post season.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Leaf fans are going to be sorely disappointed in Gibson. He’s a below average goaltender now.

no he's not, not even close, we know what below average goaltending looks like, we saw it from Jack Campbell from December-April and then in games 2, 4, and 6

and we saw it all year from Mrazek

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

It's not just about the D corps but the entire team itself. Edmonton has world class players to drive the play in their favor. Anaheim is starting to have some talented young players emerge, but since the decline of the Getzlaf/Perry/Kesler era, the best player on the team (besides Gibson) the past few seasons has been Hampus Lindholm, and he's had tough luck with injuries in recent years . It would have been fair to say up until the emergence of Terry and Zegras, that the Ducks didn't have a single first line forward since Getz declined from that level.

The team in front of Gibson for the better part of his declining statistical years has included one borderline #1/#2 D in Lindholm who has missed a ton of games (and then was dealt), Fowler who is maybe a 2/3 guy and Manson who is a solid #4 and also traded. Everyone else for the most part either middle six forwards at best, or strictly bottom pairing D. Tons of nights where they iced an AHL level blueline when at least two of the three above were out. Heck they spent over half of one of those seasons with Michael Del Zotto playing top 4 minutes because he was somehow #5 on the depth chart and someone was always out.

I think people really discount how other worldly Gibson would have to play on a nightly basis, just to make this roster remotely competitive. I don't think even the very best in the world hold up in those circumstances for 55+ games. If he's guilty of anything, he's perhaps not played with the same desperation that he could have, in some of the dog days of the season where the Ducks are down 2-0 early and showing zero signs of life. Quite a few of those games got away from him with goals that he just doesn't allow in games where he's really battling to steal a win.

Put your favourite goalie in the league in front of a team with zero first line forwards, and MDZ playing 20+ mins on the back end. They are going to have a lot of lonnnng nights.

I might be a Leaf fan but my favourite goalie is Vasi

I think Vasi could make it work

 

[Mick Riddleton]

They had a John Gibson on the roster in 1981/82

1981–82

Toronto Maple Leafs

NHL

27Games

0goals

2assits

2pts

67penalty minutes

 

[MardyBum]

If you're only here to talk stats, it's a moot point. Everyone is aware his numbers haven't been good since the Ducks cratered as a team. Not really bringing anything to the conversation at this point.

NHL clubs employ pro scouting staffs, so that they don't have to rely on just stats to form an opinion. Those who watch Gibson with interest will clearly see that he's still a high end talent. Any discussion about trading for him will come from clubs who still believe in the talent despite the numbers.

If you put even the most elite goalie in the league (say Vasi) in front of the Ducks D for the past few years, especially the long stretches where they were missing at least one of Lindholm/Fowler/Manson, and even the best of the best are going to crack after awhile. There isn't a goalie in the league that could prop the Ducks recent rosters up to anything more than a bottom feeder, and their numbers would reflect that. The goal totals pile up and SV% drops, because at a certain point you're just going to not always feel up to splitting yourself in half to try and turn a 4-1 loss into a 2-1 loss.

For folks who think Gibson's talent has completely disappeared somehow, how did he manage to be in the Vezina conversation at mid season, behind a bottom feeder team? He carried the team on his back and was stealing them enough points to be a playoff team when their roster was clearly bottom three. No playoff team is going to need to ask that much of him.



Take this mid season game against Toronto for example. Say what you want about his stats as a whole, but talent wise there just aren't any more than a very small handful of goalies who are capable of these types of performances against top teams/players.

It's been 3 seasons straight where he has had a big negative GSAx. The benefit of GSAx above save % or GAA is it takes team defense into account. So when Grubauer gets nominated for a vezina when he didn't deserve it you can see the Avs defense carried him to his nomination. Or you can see Hellebuyck or Shesterkin carrying their teams with bad defense the years they won their Vezina's.

Even with a bad defense he still saved way below what's expected for the quality of shots he faced.

Big risk to expect him to rebound, and pay a decent cost, and take on that cap hit, especially for 5 more years.

He needs a rebound season first, will increase his value too.

 

[bsu]

I will never let the Ducks fans off the hook… and allow them to use an overall weaker team or Dallas Eakins as an excuse to dismiss stats. Apparently it wasn’t an accepted excuse 6-7 years ago and, for the sake of their own words, it shouldn’t be allowed today.

Oh noooo.