Joe Sakic - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM - Part II (Updates in First Post)

[Foppa2118]

Yeah, not necessarily mad that Grigo didn't work out and was rightfully given the heave-ho yesterday.

What I AM mad about is that Sakic went right out and got the exact same player in Joe Colborne. Both are big, talented, slow, and soft. You generally don't want one of those players, but surround him with players who might make up for those weaknesses and you might make it work. You most certainly don't go out and get two of those guys.

That's another thing: It's like Sakic went out and signed individual pieces without realizing how they fit together as a whole. I went on an extended Twitter rant about it so I won't repeat it here, but basically I felt that, individually, the depth pickups were fine. But all put together they did little more than exacerbate the team's already glaring weaknesses.

I also wonder how Parnass and the analytics team took last year's disaster and if that affected their relationship with the front office. I'm willing to bet that Wiercioch was a player they pushed for and got. And again, good pickup if not for the fact that there were too many guys like him already on the roster.

Now...what I wanna know is...how the hell could no one else see that coming!? Not McFarland, not Parnass, not Billington, why did no one scream bloody murder when they saw just how many awful skaters were on the roster?

One thing about this organization, they seemingly fall in love with a certain style of player, and then never learn when they don't work out.

• Soft, lacking drive, big centers like Arnason, Grigo, Colbrone, and to an extent Mitchell.
• Slow, veteran, defensive D men that they play to much like Sarich, Zanon, Stuart, Tyutin (he was ok in the 2nd half), and to an extent Beauchemin (he was good in his 1st year).
• Big, low IQ, lacking drive, mobile D men like Holden, Gelinas, Wiercioch, and probably any UFA D man they sign this summer.
• Undersized/soft, speedy, but not particularly good offensively, or defensively D men like Redmond, Bodnarchuk, Goloubef, and Barberio (had a solid finish last year).
• On their last legs, veteran, depth forwards like May, Tucker, Briere, and Talbot.

 

[AnimalMother73]

Dater put Sakic and the Avs on blast last night on NHL Radio, echoed fan frustration with his footdragging, especially with the Duchene situation. Nothing he said was off-base.

Even Pierre LeBrun, who I don't think is in the habit of critiquing players/organizations, took a big shot at Avs ownership.

In the wake of the Avs not trading Duchene and parting ways with Grigorenko, the knives are coming out.

Its turning into a embarrassing first rate circus. Sakic and many others in Avs mgmt. lack basic and / or obvious skills to do their jobs...Too bad the owners don't care enough to do anything about it. I feel bad for the players. There's just no reason it should be this way. None at all.

 

[Foppa2118]

BTW, we now have a better look at how the ROR trade might end up looking after using the final draft pick the Avs got after trading #31 to SJ.

ROR and McGinn for Zadorov, Grigorenko, Compher, Greer, Cam Morrison, and Dennis Smirnov.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Yeah, not necessarily mad that Grigo didn't work out and was rightfully given the heave-ho yesterday.

What I AM mad about is that Sakic went right out and got the exact same player in Joe Colborne. Both are big, talented, slow, and soft. You generally don't want one of those players, but surround him with players who might make up for those weaknesses and you might make it work. You most certainly don't go out and get two of those guys.

That's another thing: It's like Sakic went out and signed individual pieces without realizing how they fit together as a whole. I went on an extended Twitter rant about it so I won't repeat it here, but basically I felt that, individually, the depth pickups were fine. But all put together they did little more than exacerbate the team's already glaring weaknesses.

I also wonder how Parnass and the analytics team took last year's disaster and if that affected their relationship with the front office. I'm willing to bet that Wiercioch was a player they pushed for and got. And again, good pickup if not for the fact that there were too many guys like him already on the roster.

Now...what I wanna know is...how the hell could no one else see that coming!? Not McFarland, not Parnass, not Billington, why did no one scream bloody murder when they saw just how many awful skaters were on the roster?

Parnass is just a numbers nerd. And McFarland and Billington are two of the three stooges.

 

[Xokkeu]

BTW, we now have a better look at how the ROR trade might end up looking after using the final draft pick the Avs got after trading #31 to SJ.

ROR and McGinn for Zadorov, Grigorenko, Compher, Greer, Cam Morrison, and Dennis Smirnov.

Pretty big reason why we are the worst franchise in the NHL right now in my opinion.

 

[Pokecheque]

Pretty big reason why we are the worst franchise in the NHL right now in my opinion.

Well, the only part of the trade that is an outright failure is Grigorenko. The rest is wait-and-see.

They were never going to get a star player in exchange for O'Reilly. Part of the reason he was traded was because the Avs needed cap room. They exchanged him for a futures package that will (hopefully) add some much-needed depth in several places.

In short, it's still way too early to judge this trade.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Serious question, is that the biggest move (ROR trade) to get assets into the org since, what? As much as people love to pan it as a big miss for Colorado it still has been the biggest asset infusion move since the EJ trade? Longer?

 

[avs1dacup]

Serious question, is that the biggest move (ROR trade) to get assets into the org since, what? As much as people love to pan it as a big miss for Colorado it still has been the biggest asset infusion move since the EJ trade? Longer?

EJ trade was only EJ, McClement, and Dunc, so not really a huge infusion. Honestly, the Lindros trade is the last one that saw more than a couple assets brought in.

 

[Xokkeu]

EJ trade was only EJ, McClement, and Dunc, so not really a huge infusion. Honestly, the Lindros trade is the last one that saw more than a couple assets brought in.

The Avs usually traded prospects for elite players until recently. Usually you don't get two Rob Blakes in those deals etc.

 

[McMetal]

Well, the only part of the trade that is an outright failure is Grigorenko. The rest is wait-and-see.

They were never going to get a star player in exchange for O'Reilly. Part of the reason he was traded was because the Avs needed cap room. They exchanged him for a futures package that will (hopefully) add some much-needed depth in several places.

In short, it's still way too early to judge this trade.

True, but I think the scale is tipping the Avs way. ROR hasn't been the answer in Buffalo despite getting the role/money he always wanted there, and I bet Buffalo would really, really like to have the depth and assets they sent us for him right now. McGinn spent less than a full season there before being sold as a rental for next to nothing.

Yeah, we moved on from Grigo, and Zadorov is progressing more slowly than we'd hoped, but Compher is looking like ROR-lite for us, and the draft pick that was flipped brought in more depth guys who will arrive soon. It is too early to make a final call, but so far, it looks pretty good.

 

[Pokecheque]

True, but I think the scale is tipping the Avs way. ROR hasn't been the answer in Buffalo despite getting the role/money he always wanted there, and I bet Buffalo would really, really like to have the depth and assets they sent us for him right now. McGinn spent less than a full season there before being sold as a rental for next to nothing.

Yeah, we moved on from Grigo, and Zadorov is progressing more slowly than we'd hoped, but Compher is looking like ROR-lite for us, and the draft pick that was flipped brought in more depth guys who will arrive soon. It is too early to make a final call, but so far, it looks pretty good.

Well, they also had their best player go down with a major injury during camp, and Tim Murray didn't really impress me as a GM. Made some inexplicable moves (like giving big money to Matt Moulson) and overall, built a roster that was just too plain slow (sound familiar, Avs fans?).

We'll see how the new GM and coach do. It's only Year One of the Ryan O'Reilly Era in Buffalo, and it stands to reason things will go much better for them this upcoming season. Of course his primary task will be negotiating a new deal for Jack Eichel, so good luck with that.

 

[CoachBadkitten]

McGinn and Grigo have basically canceled each other out. I do love that the Sabres ended up trading the pick they got for McGinn for Jimmy Vesey just to have him leave later that summer

 

[Pokecheque]

McGinn and Grigo have basically canceled each other out. I do love that the Sabres ended up trading the pick they got for McGinn for Jimmy Vesey just to have him leave later that summer

I don't even see it that way--McGinn was a salary dump, plain and simple. That was a good move by Sakic regardless of the outcome.

I didn't realize that about Vesey. Funny stuff.

 

[Pokecheque]

One thing about this organization, they seemingly fall in love with a certain style of player, and then never learn when they don't work out.

• Soft, lacking drive, big centers like Arnason, Grigo, Colbrone, and to an extent Mitchell.
• Slow, veteran, defensive D men that they play to much like Sarich, Zanon, Stuart, Tyutin (he was ok in the 2nd half), and to an extent Beauchemin (he was good in his 1st year).
• Big, low IQ, lacking drive, mobile D men like Holden, Gelinas, Wiercioch, and probably any UFA D man they sign this summer.
• Undersized/soft, speedy, but not particularly good offensively, or defensively D men like Redmond, Bodnarchuk, Goloubef, and Barberio (had a solid finish last year).
• On their last legs, veteran, depth forwards like May, Tucker, Briere, and Talbot.

Yeah, I won't argue that. Again, a good many of those guys you listed aren't necessarily bad pickups by themselves. But the Avs either overload the roster with them or they get way too full of themselves about how well one of their little reclamation projects and they keep what is clearly an interim/placeholder guy around way too long. Call it Brett Clark Syndrome.

And while of course Sakic wasn't the guy who offered that particular contract, he's had his own "Brett Clark" moments, most notably after that first amazing season when he and Roy felt like they had to lock everyone they could down to multi-year extensions. None of the deals that got handed out were necessarily backbreaking in term or $$$ but it simply wasn't necessary. There was NO reason to hurriedly sign Nick Holden to a new contract when the final year of his then-current deal hadn't even kicked in yet. They could've waited even a few months and gotten him, if they wanted to, for less.

The other thing about placeholders is that ya gotta replace them with something more substantial and permanent eventually. The Avs did so poorly at developing talent that it was all placeholders for the better part of 10 years. Now this is where we should probably give Sakic credit...it looks like the era of placeholders might FINALLY be going away. But we'll see.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

I can't believe people are still *****ing about Holden. He earned every bit of his tiny paycheck. And now that he is on a good team with a real system he is doing even better.

 

[LieutenantDangle]

I can't believe people are still *****ing about Holden. He earned every bit of his tiny paycheck. And now that he is on a good team with a real system he is doing even better.

I'm just upset that Holden is the best they could muster to get for Barrie. Kid deserves more than he's ever had. Guenin, Holden

 

[cgf]

Yeah, not necessarily mad that Grigo didn't work out and was rightfully given the heave-ho yesterday.

What I AM mad about is that Sakic went right out and got the exact same player in Joe Colborne. Both are big, talented, slow, and soft. You generally don't want one of those players, but surround him with players who might make up for those weaknesses and you might make it work. You most certainly don't go out and get two of those guys.

That's another thing: It's like Sakic went out and signed individual pieces without realizing how they fit together as a whole. I went on an extended Twitter rant about it so I won't repeat it here, but basically I felt that, individually, the depth pickups were fine. But all put together they did little more than exacerbate the team's already glaring weaknesses.

I also wonder how Parnass and the analytics team took last year's disaster and if that affected their relationship with the front office. I'm willing to bet that Wiercioch was a player they pushed for and got. And again, good pickup if not for the fact that there were too many guys like him already on the roster.

Now...what I wanna know is...how the hell could no one else see that coming!? Not McFarland, not Parnass, not Billington, why did no one scream bloody murder when they saw just how many awful skaters were on the roster?

Roy had a knack for motivating those big softies; see Soderberg having a career year under Patrick and Grigorenko being effective enough to warrant some top 6 minutes. I bet if Patty had stuck around we'd have gotten 20+ goals out of Colborne; 45+ points from Soda; and Greg would've had a good enough season to get his QO.

So it's tough to s*** on sakic for players he got for Roy, failing under Bednar; at least with how that all went down.

True, but I think the scale is tipping the Avs way. ROR hasn't been the answer in Buffalo despite getting the role/money he always wanted there, and I bet Buffalo would really, really like to have the depth and assets they sent us for him right now. McGinn spent less than a full season there before being sold as a rental for next to nothing.

Yeah, we moved on from Grigo, and Zadorov is progressing more slowly than we'd hoped, but Compher is looking like ROR-lite for us, and the draft pick that was flipped brought in more depth guys who will arrive soon. It is too early to make a final call, but so far, it looks pretty good.

I warned you guys before the ROR trade that y'all were being unrealistic with your expectations for Zadorov's development. He's right on schedule as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Balthazar]

True, but I think the scale is tipping the Avs way. ROR hasn't been the answer in Buffalo despite getting the role/money he always wanted there, and I bet Buffalo would really, really like to have the depth and assets they sent us for him right now. McGinn spent less than a full season there before being sold as a rental for next to nothing.

ROR isn't the problem in Buffalo and has been up to the task. Buffalo would never trade him back for what they gave us if that's what you're implying.

 

[henchman21]

Holden is a NHL defender. A 5, who can play up when needed, but he is a NHL defender. I still firmly believe that Barrie's partner is pretty irrelevant. Barrie excels with the puck on his stick, the more it is there, the better his game will be. Yeah a player who is better in his own zone would be nice for Barrie, but I don't think it hurts his game to play with lesser partners. With lesser partners, Barrie just needs smarter utilization. If Alzner wasn't falling off a cliff, he'd honestly be perfect. Good in the defensive zone, and could just feed Barrie the puck time and time again.

 

[cgf]

Holden is a NHL defender. A 5, who can play up when needed, but he is a NHL defender. I still firmly believe that Barrie's partner is pretty irrelevant. Barrie excels with the puck on his stick, the more it is there, the better his game will be. Yeah a player who is better in his own zone would be nice for Barrie, but I don't think it hurts his game to play with lesser partners. With lesser partners, Barrie just needs smarter utilization. If Alzner wasn't falling off a cliff, he'd honestly be perfect. Good in the defensive zone, and could just feed Barrie the puck time and time again.

This is why I don't dread the pending Kulikov signing...as long as the term isn't absurd...Kuli - Barrie could be a legit 2nd pairing, especially if Zads - EJ hold up as the top pairing, and Bigras/Barby/Lindholm - Mironov settle in quickly to form a solid third pairing.

I can't believe people are still *****ing about Holden. He earned every bit of his tiny paycheck. And now that he is on a good team with a real system he is doing even better.

 

[ABasin]

Holden is a NHL defender. A 5, who can play up when needed, but he is a NHL defender. I still firmly believe that Barrie's partner is pretty irrelevant. Barrie excels with the puck on his stick, the more it is there, the better his game will be. Yeah a player who is better in his own zone would be nice for Barrie, but I don't think it hurts his game to play with lesser partners. With lesser partners, Barrie just needs smarter utilization. If Alzner wasn't falling off a cliff, he'd honestly be perfect. Good in the defensive zone, and could just feed Barrie the puck time and time again.

Quick question: when looking at Avs puck-carrying defensemen under Bednar last season, it seems to me that Barrie played quite a bit below his potential, but Barberio played right up to his. Why so?

Or am I off base with that observation?

 

[henchman21]

Quick question: when looking at Avs puck-carrying defensemen under Bednar last season, it seems to me that Barrie played quite a bit below his potential, but Barberio played right up to his. Why so?

Or am I off base with that observation?

Barberio is actually has a pretty good 1st pass and read. That is probably his biggest strength as a player. The system the Avs were using really catered to that strength while Barrie is not a great passer and is better at rushing. Barrie was being forced to read and pass to one of 2, maybe 3 options instead of read and either rush or pass. The latter in the past allowed Barrie to open up options in the neutral zone or carry the puck into the offensive zone and distribute a shorter pass with spacing. If that makes sense.

 

[ABasin]

Barberio is actually has a pretty good 1st pass and read. That is probably his biggest strength as a player. The system the Avs were using really catered to that strength while Barrie is not a great passer and is better at rushing. Barrie was being forced to read and pass to one of 2, maybe 3 options instead of read and either rush or pass. The latter in the past allowed Barrie to open up options in the neutral zone or carry the puck into the offensive zone and distribute a shorter pass with spacing. If that makes sense.

I like Barberio's defensive zone outlet passing and his skating with the puck is also quite good.

However, I think that (skating/puck possession) pertains to all zones except the offensive zone, where his passing/creativity are just meh.

What holds him back IMO, is that he's really not very good without the puck, especially in the defensive zone. I've always felt that defensive positioning (as opposed to offensive creativity, for example) is one of the things that can readily be taught. If Barberio can improve in this way, he could be a half decent 3rd pairing guy.

On Barrie....yeah, it sure does seem that Bednar's system stifled more players than it helped. Does any other team in the NHL play a similar system? Or probably a better way to put that: does Bednar's system mimic any other NHL team's system?

 

[Xokkeu]

True, but I think the scale is tipping the Avs way. ROR hasn't been the answer in Buffalo despite getting the role/money he always wanted there, and I bet Buffalo would really, really like to have the depth and assets they sent us for him right now. McGinn spent less than a full season there before being sold as a rental for next to nothing.

Yeah, we moved on from Grigo, and Zadorov is progressing more slowly than we'd hoped, but Compher is looking like ROR-lite for us, and the draft pick that was flipped brought in more depth guys who will arrive soon. It is too early to make a final call, but so far, it looks pretty good.

The money is a problem but no way the trade can be called a win for the Avs. OReilly trade and Statsny leaving is the major reasons we went from a playoff team to one of the worst in the league. We traded a really good NHL player for essentially nothing until next year at most. Frankly I'd rather have OReilly and a 7$ mil salary or whatever he ended up with than Jt Compher and Zadorov.

 

[henchman21]

does Bednar's system mimic any other NHL team's system?

I don't really feel there is all that much variation in hockey systems at this level aside from the odd duck here or there (Ottawa is way out on an island right now). ~20 teams run the same basic stuff with minor variations (Avs included in that group). Similar breakouts... 1-2-2 or 2-1-2... Zone defense in the defensive zone... Overload... etc The team I see most like the Avs is Winnipeg, but a number of different teams could be compared.