Speculation: Jimmy Vesey **Signed with NYR**

[BarBeauWahlDobLok]

With the likes of Dal Colle, Bellows, Ho-Sang, and Beauvillier in our system, I think Vesey saw too much thick brush to cut through, so he decided on a more secure spot. I can't say I blame him.

Again, I don't mind not having him. I think he can be a good NHL player, but I doubt he'll be great.

 

[NYRFAN218]

No way Jose.... not with that defense. They will be good enough to get into the playoffs and maybe go a round if Lundqvist stays healthy, but that's their hard ceiling. Staal and Girardi are half of their top 4, that means plenty of time 5V5 and on the PK. No bueno

The pieces they added were nice, but at what cost? Zibby is younger and cheaper, but is he better than Brassard? Vesey and Buch are unproven... but considering age and league, hardly posted eye popping numbers. The big question up front is can Zuccarello sustain what he did last year? Very doubtful he carries that 15.7% shot percentage again when his career best was 11% prior to last year.

The Rangers at this point are a bubble playoff team. I have PIT, WSH, TBL, and FLA as the top 4 then a sizable gap to the next group which includes the Islanders, Rangers, Devils, Flyers, Canadiens, Bruins, and Red Wings. Some teams may be better in that group than others but the point is there's a pretty big divide after the top 4. I think a team like Carolina could surprise too though I'm not sure they make the playoffs.

Rangers are obviously great in goal and very very good up front but their D is one of the worst in the league. To me, this is a transition year for the Rangers. They need to burn a year off the Staal/Girardi contracts while hoping they regain some value to make them tradeable (more so Girardi as I don't believe Staal's value has plummeted as much as Girardi's). With both of them having to be protected during the expansion draft, I'd imagine at least one of them is gone after the season whether it's trade or buyout. They have pieces to build around on D in McDonagh and Skjei but there's no true defenseman to push the offense currently beyond McDonagh and too many players in the same defensive defenseman mold (Staal, Girardi, Holden, and to lesser extents Klein and McIlrath).

I pretty much agree that the Rangers are a team that I personally think will make the playoffs and go a round or two barring Lundqvist going insane which is always a possibility. But I think the offseason they had was pretty much as good as it gets with the constraints they have. They added a 2nd while acquiring Zibanejad who is slightly worse than Brassard now but is 6 years younger with more upside. They addressed their disastrous PK by getting cheap depth in Grabner, Gerbe, and Jooris. As a whole, I think the team got a tad quicker too and also got younger by moving on from guys like Boyle and Moore. Expecting anything more than 30-40 points for either of Buchnevich or Vesey this upcoming season is nuts and it'll probably be closer to 30.

So yeah, top 5 goaltending in the league, top 10-15 offense in the league? (don't know how to accurately assess the offense - tons of depth but a lot depends on how Nash bounces back) and bottom 5 defense sounds about right.

 

[BMOK33]

The Rangers at this point are a bubble playoff team. I have PIT, WSH, TBL, and FLA as the top 4 then a sizable gap to the next group which includes the Islanders, Rangers, Devils, Flyers, Canadiens, Bruins, and Red Wings. Some teams may be better in that group than others but the point is there's a pretty big divide after the top 4. I think a team like Carolina could surprise too though I'm not sure they make the playoffs.

Rangers are obviously great in goal and very very good up front but their D is one of the worst in the league. To me, this is a transition year for the Rangers. They need to burn a year off the Staal/Girardi contracts while hoping they regain some value to make them tradeable (more so Girardi as I don't believe Staal's value has plummeted as much as Girardi's). With both of them having to be protected during the expansion draft, I'd imagine at least one of them is gone after the season whether it's trade or buyout. They have pieces to build around on D in McDonagh and Skjei but there's no true defenseman to push the offense currently beyond McDonagh and too many players in the same defensive defenseman mold (Staal, Girardi, Holden, and to lesser extents Klein and McIlrath).

I pretty much agree that the Rangers are a team that I personally think will make the playoffs and go a round or two barring Lundqvist going insane which is always a possibility. But I think the offseason they had was pretty much as good as it gets with the constraints they have. They added a 2nd while acquiring Zibanejad who is slightly worse than Brassard now but is 6 years younger with more upside. They addressed their disastrous PK by getting cheap depth in Grabner, Gerbe, and Jooris. As a whole, I think the team got a tad quicker too and also got younger by moving on from guys like Boyle and Moore. Expecting anything more than 30-40 points for either of Buchnevich or Vesey this upcoming season is nuts and it'll probably be closer to 30.

So yeah, top 5 goaltending in the league, top 10-15 offense in the league? (don't know how to accurately assess the offense - tons of depth but a lot depends on how Nash bounces back) and bottom 5 defense sounds about right.

There is no question the Isles and Rangers are playing for 3rd and 4th in this division. Whoever doesn't get 3rd could potentially miss the playoffs because I feel the other division as a whole got better this summer. I would be very surprised if either the Isles or the Rangers finished above Pitt or Wsh but I guess if one of those two gets riddled with injuries it's possible

 

[danteipp]

The only teams that I see clearly ahead of the Islanders are Washington, Pittsburgh and Tampa. Florida and the Isles are very close, both teams made some moves in the off season and need to see how they work out. Then there is everyone else like the Rangers, Detroit, Boston, Flyers, etc.

The reason I have the Isles ahead of the rest of the bubble teams is JT and their superior depth. The Isles have 14-NHL caliber forwards, which doesn't even include either MDC or Ho-Sang, eight (8) solid defenders and some interesting goal tending names. The Isles can withstand the injury bug better than most teams and I think that is going to play out over a long season.

 

[The Underboss]

I would love to see Cizikas or Clutterbuck welcome him to the NHL. A nice hard hip check up and over the boards into the bench area.

 

[xECK29x]

I would love to see Cizikas or Clutterbuck welcome him to the NHL. A nice hard hip check up and over the boards into the bench area.

That's the spirit!

 

[Jester9881]

The Rangers at this point are a bubble playoff team. I have PIT, WSH, TBL, and FLA as the top 4 then a sizable gap to the next group which includes the Islanders, Rangers, Devils, Flyers, Canadiens, Bruins, and Red Wings. Some teams may be better in that group than others but the point is there's a pretty big divide after the top 4. I think a team like Carolina could surprise too though I'm not sure they make the playoffs.

Rangers are obviously great in goal and very very good up front but their D is one of the worst in the league. To me, this is a transition year for the Rangers. They need to burn a year off the Staal/Girardi contracts while hoping they regain some value to make them tradeable (more so Girardi as I don't believe Staal's value has plummeted as much as Girardi's). With both of them having to be protected during the expansion draft, I'd imagine at least one of them is gone after the season whether it's trade or buyout. They have pieces to build around on D in McDonagh and Skjei but there's no true defenseman to push the offense currently beyond McDonagh and too many players in the same defensive defenseman mold (Staal, Girardi, Holden, and to lesser extents Klein and McIlrath).

I pretty much agree that the Rangers are a team that I personally think will make the playoffs and go a round or two barring Lundqvist going insane which is always a possibility. But I think the offseason they had was pretty much as good as it gets with the constraints they have. They added a 2nd while acquiring Zibanejad who is slightly worse than Brassard now but is 6 years younger with more upside. They addressed their disastrous PK by getting cheap depth in Grabner, Gerbe, and Jooris. As a whole, I think the team got a tad quicker too and also got younger by moving on from guys like Boyle and Moore. Expecting anything more than 30-40 points for either of Buchnevich or Vesey this upcoming season is nuts and it'll probably be closer to 30.

So yeah, top 5 goaltending in the league, top 10-15 offense in the league? (don't know how to accurately assess the offense - tons of depth but a lot depends on how Nash bounces back) and bottom 5 defense sounds about right.

We're basically in agreement. But Girardi/Staal is a tough nut, even with another year burned off. You're talking about two guys that will be over 30 with 3 and 4 years left at or over 5.5m a year. If they're struggling now, how are they going to look a year from now, likely with a little more responsibility leveled on them with the departure of Yandle? I just don't see a team trading for either without sending a significant amount of money the other way.... then you've got the whole NMC/NTC issue to wrestle with. Just seems to me the Rangers are either going to have to let these guys play out their contracts (they can send Staal to AHL siberia in two years), or bite the bullet and buy them out. Tough position to be in for sure.

 

[Sparksrus3]

I'm happy with our college boy Anders Lee.
And he signed with us when he could have walked or skated away

 

[Jester9881]

At the time I was very concerned that Anders was going to do the 4 years and walk routine.

 

[TheRightWay]

I would LOVE to see this posted in the Vescey thread on the Rangers board. You really can't dispute any of it. Would love to see the blowhard anti-Isles people try to respond to this.

Allow this "blowhard" to dispute it, then.

Anyone who doesn't see the talent edge the Isles have up front, with JT as the centerpiece and now a second strong veteran voice in the locker room in Ladd; PLUS solid young players like Lee, Nelson, Strome, Cizikas, etc.; PLUS five (5) legit blue-chip prospects like Barzal, Bellows, Beauvillier, MDC, Ho-Sang, etc. (that the Rangers simply cannot match) AND a superior defense core that goes eight (8) players deep is simply not taking the entire package into account.

This is a whole lot of listing names and not a lot of supporting evidence. The Rangers were 7th in the NHL in goals last season and that is despite Rick Nash playing maybe 40 games while healthy the entire season. The Islanders were 11th and lost two of their three highest scoring forwards. The forwards could be better, but to pass it off as some obvious, undeniable fact is ridiculous. The Islanders definitely have the better forward prospects and defense, though.

(Mod Edit)

however, the Isles have a glut of quality goalies in the system, including one of the foremost G prospects in the world in Ilya Sorokin as well. Sorokin is going to be a beast.

So do the Rangers. Igor Shestyorkin stole the starting goaltending job from Sorokin at the World Juniors in 2014. For all of the prospect issues the Rangers have, goaltending is the one area lacking concern. I'd say the Islanders and Rangers are about even here.

For all of the grief Strome has taken, he still has a 50-point season in the NHL and is six (6) months YOUNGER than Vesey. Put Strome in the NCAA and he would dominate.

I don't understand what this is supposed to be proving. J.T. Miller also would have dominated the NCAA. So what? What does this have to do with anything?

And I keep hearing about Pavel Buchneivch, who went 16-21-37 in 58 KHL games. The Isles fourth-round pick, Anatolyi Golyshev, went 25-19-44 in 56 KHL games and he isn't even close to the top of the Isles prospect pool, like Buchevich is for the Rag$.

This is at least partly because Buchnevich spent a large chunk of the season playing fourth line minutes for SKA and was strangely not given much power play time with Cherepovets. It also completely ignores the fact that Buchnevich has Golyshev beat in all other areas of the game which don't show up in the goals and assists columns.

Of course Vesey chose the Rag$, he probably realizes they are his easiest path to a second big contract. Why would he want to battle Ladd, Nelson, Lee, Strome, Barzal, Beauvillier, Bellows, MDC, Ho-Sang, Golyshev, etc. when he can take down such luminaries like Kreider (who might be more interested in drinking than playing hockey), Miller, Grabner, Buchnevich, Gropp, etc. at LW?

This is just ridiculous. If it was about "the easiest path a second big contract" then he would have signed with a team that actually lacks young top-six wingers. The Blackhawks have a gaping hole on their second line left wing. He would be the heavy favorite for a top-six spot with the Devils once Cammalleri decline or leaves. As things stand, Jimmy Vesey will be in a heavy fight just to start the season on the Rangers' third line. There's no obvious path into the top-six in the future, either.

Maybe everything you've said about the rosters and prospect pools is correct. You completely, utterly fail to even consider the fact that Jimmy Vesey is a human being who might have considered things besides what the rosters and prospects look like. This isn't a video game. Kevin Hayes has been his best friend since childhood. That's a huge reason he signed with the Rangers. Maybe he didn't like the idea of commuting to Brooklyn. Maybe he was blown away by Madison Square Garden and the team's training facility. Maybe he felt the Rangers' coaching staff fit his playing style better. There are a significant number of things players consider when making a decision on where to sign that have absolutely nothing to do with what the depth chart looks like. Your entire post just comes off as sour grapes.

 

[danteipp]

Allow this "blowhard" to dispute it, then.



This is a whole lot of listing names and not a lot of supporting evidence. The Rangers were 7th in the NHL in goals last season and that is despite Rick Nash playing maybe 40 games while healthy the entire season. The Islanders were 11th and lost two of their three highest scoring forwards. The forwards could be better, but to pass it off as some obvious, undeniable fact is ridiculous. The Islanders definitely have the better forward prospects and defense, though.



(Mod Edit)


So do the Rangers. Igor Shestyorkin stole the starting goaltending job from Sorokin at the World Juniors in 2014. For all of the prospect issues the Rangers have, goaltending is the one area lacking concern. I'd say the Islanders and Rangers are about even here.



I don't understand what this is supposed to be proving. J.T. Miller also would have dominated the NCAA. So what? What does this have to do with anything?



This is at least partly because Buchnevich spent a large chunk of the season playing fourth line minutes for SKA and was strangely not given much power play time with Cherepovets. It also completely ignores the fact that Buchnevich has Golyshev beat in all other areas of the game which don't show up in the goals and assists columns.




This is just ridiculous. If it was about "the easiest path a second big contract" then he would have signed with a team that actually lacks young top-six wingers. The Blackhawks have a gaping hole on their second line left wing. He would be the heavy favorite for a top-six spot with the Devils once Cammalleri decline or leaves. As things stand, Jimmy Vesey will be in a heavy fight just to start the season on the Rangers' third line. There's no obvious path into the top-six in the future, either.

Maybe everything you've said about the rosters and prospect pools is correct. You completely, utterly fail to even consider the fact that Jimmy Vesey is a human being who might have considered things besides what the rosters and prospects look like. This isn't a video game. Kevin Hayes has been his best friend since childhood. That's a huge reason he signed with the Rangers. Maybe he didn't like the idea of commuting to Brooklyn. Maybe he was blown away by Madison Square Garden and the team's training facility. Maybe he felt the Rangers' coaching staff fit his playing style better. There are a significant number of things players consider when making a decision on where to sign that have absolutely nothing to do with what the depth chart looks like. Your entire post just comes off as sour grapes.

Well let me refute your "facts", which you conveniently tailored to support your claims.

I like how you list the Rag$ as 7th in goals scored and the Isles as 11th. When the reality is the Rag$ scored 236 goals and the Isles scored 232 last year. That is a whopping difference of four (4) total goals, which is an immaterial number across an entire season.

The Isles also upgraded on KO (who had zero chemistry with JT) and Matt Martin with Ladd and Chimera. Ladd and Chimera will bring more offense, well-rounded games and veteran leadership than KO or Martin.

The wait and see issue is if PaP and (maybe) Barzal can offset Nielsen. Advanced stats really favor PaP as a significant contributor who also has a strong history with JT. If the Isles need another forward, they will go out and get one. They have the prospects to add any piece they need at any time.

Anders Lee also really came on and got better every month. In case you weren't aware of it, the Isles played a far more defensive system last year than the previous season. That took time for young players like Lee, Nelson and Strome to adjust to. Strome was also playing out of position at RW. If he is at C, his natural position, I think we will see a solid year out of him.

The Isles defense also gave up one (1) fewer goal than the Rag$ and they are just starting to come of age while your defense is only getting older (Staal and Girardi) and you lost Yandle. Meanwhile the Isles should continue to trend upwards as Leddy, Hamonic, CdH, Pulock, Hickey, Pelech, etc. hit physical maturity. You mention Nash was hurt most of last year? Boychuk was also banged up. He should rebound this season. I like how you essentially glossed over the disparity in the defense core makeups with just a one line concession. Bully for you.

The "(Mod Edit)" has been the (Mod Edit) to me since he pouted like a little girl and took a few whacks at the ice girls just trying to do their job. He is a real tough guy.

Lol, Igor Shestyorkin is a nice little prospect. He is no Sorokin right now. Sorokin has passed him, lapped him really. If this was still 2014, you might have some credence. However, Igor played 7 KHL games and played predominantly in the VHL, which is the league below the KHL. Sorokin was the best goalie in the KHL. He was the best goalie in the KHL playoffs. End of story there.

Shestyorkin is probably closer to Linus Soderstrom than Sorokin right now. The Isles also have interesting prospects/young players in goal in J-F Berube, Christopher Gibson, Stephon Williams and Eamon McAdam at the NHL/AHL level. They also still hold the rights to Mikko Koskinen in the KHL, who has put up some strong seasons. You have Shestyorkin and maybe Magnus Hellberg and/or Brandon Halverson. The Isles have far greater high-end talent and depth in their system in goal.

As for your boy Buch, he matches up against the Isles 9th or so ranked prospect, how does he compare against Barzal, Beauvillier, Bellows, MDC or Ho-Sang? Answer: not well.

As for the easier path, you didn't read my post correctly. It was specifically with respect to the Isles vs. the Rags. Vesey could clearly see that Ladd, Lee, Nelson, Bailey, Beauvillier, Bellows, etc. are far more to overcome than what the Rags have in the fold at LW. If we are talking about say Chicago, I assume he didn't want to move too far away. The Rags are a good fit for him in terms of talent and proximity. Plus he can go out partying with Hayes, Kreider, etc. in NYC. so he has that going for him too.

Sorry, no sour grapes here, like I said earlier and several times, a 23-year old beating up on 18-20 year old kids doesn't impress me. Even before Vesey signed with any team, I noted that I have little interest in him. If he signed, so be it. But I really don't care. Heck, he might not even be better than Shane Prince next year. Let's see how he looks against men.

 

[eoin92]

Why are we still talking about this guy?

 

[danteipp]

Why are we still talking about this guy?

Unfortunately, it is the slow season right now. We have baseball and not much else. Hockey and Football (and I don't mean pre-season football) cannot return soon enough.

But I agree, the Jimmy Vesey discussion has mercifully run its course.

I am actually happy that he signed with the Rag$. Just gives me one more reason to loathe them.

Hopefully Nashville gives him a warm welcome when he plays a game there.

That said, they need to close the college loophole in the next CBA. Maybe something along the lines of if the original drafting team offers a college player the max ELC, but he opts to test free agency, the team that signs him forfeits at least the original pick, if not a first rounder. That would definitely close the loophole for many players.

I never liked the loophole. It just doesn't seem right if the original team has offered up an ELC in good faith and put in several years of development, camps, etc.

It is why I was scared of the Isles drafting McAvoy, if he was the best player available. He has the stink of potential Rags tampering all over him, having been connected to them since birth essentially. Thank the hockey gods he is Boston's headache and the Isles landed Bellows. I think Bellows plays two years in college then moves to the AHL/NHL.

 

[Jester9881]

Vesey is way overhyped, but he isn't an insignificant add either. In reality it's about on par with when they added Hayes, and he should probably end up being about the same type player. Remember Gilroy?

He's a nice young piece for a team that is lacking in prospects. How many top end players start their careers by not getting drafted the first time around, then going in the 3rd round his overage year, then playing out an entire college career before going UFA?

Top talent doesn't get overlooked that many times.

 

[1 Timer]

Bottom line is he makes the Rangers and if he signed with the Isles, Hawks, Bruins, he get 3rd line minutes or an AHL season under his belt. Good for him going after playing time where he will improve.

 

[The Underboss]

Stop referring to Lundqvist as a "queen" please.

 

[BMOK33]

At the time I was very concerned that Anders was going to do the 4 years and walk routine.

I still do think he will be a pain to sign after next season. He's another Minnesota guy and the sort of player everyone in this league wants. I think with the new owners more in place things may be different, or if we stink this year losing Frans and KO they may be more willing to dish out next time

 

[danteipp]

Stop referring to Lundqvist as a "queen" please.

It was not my intent to offend anyone and, to clarify, I was not referring to him as a "queen" in the negative LGBT sense of the word but as part of my continued amazement that he is called "the King" or "King Henrik" when he has never won a Stanley Cup. I have called him that for years on this board but will stop since it is apparently being taken the wrong way.

"King Henrik" is a joke of a nickname however. He got it as a rookie because the NY media and the Raggie$ fans were all too happy to try an anoint him and sell some papers. He hasn't won it all in the NHL. Do that and then the king moniker is justified. But they put the cart before the horse here.

I would just as soon call him the little prince, however, he is not the king by any means. Win a Cup if you want to be considered the King. And don't pout when things don't go your way. So from now on I will call him "Prince Hal".

For the Rag$ fans unfamiliar with it, "Prince Hal" is the critical commentary on the character from Shakespeare's Henry IV, Part 1 and Henry IV, Part 2.

 

[CupHolders]

It was not my intent to offend anyone and, to clarify, I was not referring to him as a "queen" in the negative LGBT sense of the word but as part of my continued amazement that he is called "the King" or "King Henrik" when he has never won a Stanley Cup. I have called him that for years on this board but will stop since it is apparently being taken the wrong way.

"King Henrik" is a joke of a nickname however. He got it as a rookie because the NY media and the Raggie$ fans were all too happy to try an anoint him and sell some papers. He hasn't won it all in the NHL. Do that and then the king moniker is justified. But they put the cart before the horse here.

I would just as soon call him the little prince, however, he is not the king by any means. Win a Cup if you want to be considered the King. And don't pout when things don't go your way. So from now on I will call him "Prince Hal".

For the Rag$ fans unfamiliar with it, "Prince Hal" is the critical commentary on the character from Shakespeare's Henry IV, Part 1 and Henry IV, Part 2.

In truth I never did like the mocking of Lunqvist in that manner. But I'm not to keen on "Prince Hal" either. Why not something more concise, like....

Henrik "The temperamental goalie who threw the net off the morings because a call didn't go his way and struck a broom out of an ice girl's hands in an assaulting manner, but we can't call it assault even if it can be interpreted by definition as assault; because it doesn't jive with MSG/Rangers marketing of how classy he is" Lundqvist.

Or, we can go with "King" despite all of the above being factually true.

 

[CupHolders]

Personally, I expect Vesey to do well on the Rangers. I also do think it's a better spot for him than the Isles.

 

[danteipp]

We can go with "the pouting temperamental little prince" as well.

 

[danteipp]

Getting back to Vesey, and I don't really have much interest in talking about him beyond this, but what I think is particularly hilarious is that he sought counsel from Kevin Hayes and Chris Kreider. I know he is buddies with those two but Kreider has rocks in his head and how could Hayes possibly tell Vesey to sign with the Rags and pass on the Blackhawks with a straight face?

If Hayes had signed with the Blackhawks coming out of college, he would have at least one Stanley Cup on his resume and maybe even two if he signed after his junior year. How in the world can you pass up being a favorite for the Stanley Cup and playing with Kane and Toews? Deep down, Hayes has to regret that decision.

And, if Kreider doesn't put it together and get his act straight this year, it wouldn't surprise me if the Raggie$ trade him. Maybe in a package to try to get out from under Staal or Girardi.

 

[periferal]

Why are we still talking about this guy?

You do realize that is also talking about him.

 

[eoin92]

You do realize that is also talking about him.

Yes, yes it is.

 

[TheWhiteWhale30]

No way Jose.... not with that defense. They will be good enough to get into the playoffs and maybe go a round if Lundqvist stays healthy, but that's their hard ceiling. Staal and Girardi are half of their top 4, that means plenty of time 5V5 and on the PK. No bueno

The pieces they added were nice, but at what cost? Zibby is younger and cheaper, but is he better than Brassard? Vesey and Buch are unproven... but considering age and league, hardly posted eye popping numbers. The big question up front is can Zuccarello sustain what he did last year? Very doubtful he carries that 15.7% shot percentage again when his career best was 11% prior to last year.

This.