Speculation: Jets General Rumour, Trade, Free Agent and Waiver Speculation 15-16 (Part VII)

[YWGinYYZ]

Continued from: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1999221

A note: the previous thread got pretty heated. Please, please stick to commenting on the content of posts only, and not posters. Do not:

1) Flame other posters
2) Troll
3) Break any other site rules

Have some respect for your fellow poster by not making it personal. Stick to debating the points.

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[Hunter368]

I think they've been treading water with the original core, because it isn't quite good enough. It takes time to build up a strong system through the draft. Our first draft picks are only just now making an impact in the NHL, and most of the players from the important 2013 draft are still developing in the minors.

Again we agree, even more to my point. This core should of been evaluated much earlier than now (if we assume Chevy now realizes this core isn't good enough). Thus they should of been converted into prospects & picks or young NHLer's much sooner so they could of been developing for 1-2-3 years now. Not to mention our return on buff or Ladd would of higher if they 1-2 years of term vs pure rental value......thus again we would of accelerated our development with even more prospects/picks and/or greater quality ones.

 

[Whileee]

Again we agree, even more to my point. This core should of been evaluated much earlier than now (if we assume Chevy now realizes this core isn't good enough). Thus they should of been converted into prospects & picks or young NHLer's much sooner so they could of been developing for 1-2-3 years now. Not to mention our return on buff or Ladd would of higher if they 1-2 years of term vs pure rental value......thus again we would of accelerated our development with even more prospects/picks and/or greater quality ones.

I agree with this. My only caution is that I think there is a danger in bringing in a lot of young players to a terrible team without strong veteran leadership. The Oilers squandered a lot of their opportunities by failing to create a healthy environment for young players. I expect that the Jets brass wanted a good environment as they started bringing in youth. Now younger players like Scheifele will be able to mentor rookies.

 

[tbcwpg]

Again we agree, even more to my point. This core should of been evaluated much earlier than now (if we assume Chevy now realizes this core isn't good enough). Thus they should of been converted into prospects & picks or young NHLer's much sooner so they could of been developing for 1-2-3 years now. Not to mention our return on buff or Ladd would of higher if they 1-2 years of term vs pure rental value......thus again we would of accelerated our development with even more prospects/picks and/or greater quality ones.

The flip side of this strategy is that, when the roster is so bare of NHL talent, you have to start moving the kids in sooner than you'd like to. It happened with Kane, it happened with Burmi, it probably happened with Bogosian. If you have enough NHL talent around, you can try to move the younger players in a bit sooner. Bogo and Buff made Trouba's entry a bit easier, for example. It's easy to say that X should've been moved 2 years ago, because you don't have to see what life would be like with these kids in these spots. You have to ice a team of 18 skaters and 2 goalies 82 nights out of the year. If it's not established NHL players, it's the youth that you're trying to develop.

The only player I think that was probably rushed but didn't get hurt by it was Scheifele. Ehlers would learn nothing more in junior, ie. he wouldn't be developing. It's to his benefit that he's not being relied on to be a heavy contributor.

I think we'll start to see movement from the Jets side after the ASB. It's close to the end of the big home stand, and there will be meetings in Nashville around that time. This month will make or break the season.

 

[JetsFan815]

Unrealistic and unnecessary. The Jets wanted to go with youth, and didn't put priority on Stempniak (neither did 29 other teams). Not sure why there has to be a federal case made about it.

If you expect a GM to telegraph all their plans or be completely transparent about their decisions, you'll be disappointed, even if Chevy is replaced. NHL GMs just don't reveal much.

Well you were the one who decided that the Stempniak horse needed to be beaten again and brought it up. Anyways what is it then? Is it the youth movement the reason behind the decision to not resign Stempniak or is it "Stempniak demanding top 6 minutes". Those two claims are contradictory. I'll believe the former but the later no way in hell

My point is simple if Chevy was saying what you claim he's saying, he could have said in an equivocal way, as things stand right now. I see no interpretation of that interview which can be seen as "Stempniak walked because he wanted a bigger". You are likely hearing what you want to hear

 

[Hunter368]

I agree with this. My only caution is that I think there is a danger in bringing in a lot of young players to a terrible team without strong veteran leadership. The Oilers squandered a lot of their opportunities by failing to create a healthy environment for young players. I expect that the Jets brass wanted a good environment as they started bringing in youth. Now younger players like Scheifele will be able to mentor rookies.

I agree again, but don't forget I'm not suggesting in the least that we trade or should of traded all our vets......only key ones that we didn't/don't see in our long term future plans. Little, Wheeler, maybe buff, etc offer great leadership IMO to any younger core. I agree Mark will be a good leader, I think he already is......I just think he needs to build more credibility and the only way to do that is time.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I agree with this. My only caution is that I think there is a danger in bringing in a lot of young players to a terrible team without strong veteran leadership. The Oilers squandered a lot of their opportunities by failing to create a healthy environment for young players. I expect that the Jets brass wanted a good environment as they started bringing in youth. Now younger players like Scheifele will be able to mentor rookies.

I don't disagree with your point but the Oilers are a terrible example to use. They only got 1 player out of (almost) every draft, their 1st round pick. That pick was shoved into the NHL right out of the draft. Then they made a lot of other mistakes to go with that bad drafting.

 

[Whileee]

Well you were the one who decided that the Stempniak horse needed to be beaten again and brought it up. Anyways what is it then? Is it the youth movement the reason behind the decision to not resign Stempniak or is it "Stempniak demanding top 6 minutes". Those two claims are contradictory. I'll believe the former but the later no way in hell

My point is simple if Chevy was saying what you claim he's saying, he could have said in an equivocal way, as things stand right now. I see no interpretation of that interview which can be seen as "Stempniak walked because he wanted a bigger". You are likely hearing what you want to hear

I simply gave a summary of the interview, and was jumped all over with claims that I purposely misrepresented Chevy's comments about the vets that weren't re-signed. It was not my intent to discuss Stempniak again.

I maintain my summary of the interview is accurate. Other posters who listened have agreed with me, but you are free to disagree. Others can listen for themselves.

Youth movement and usage is linked. Stafford was signed to play top six as a vet. Bottom six roles were left open for youth - Burmi, Ehlers, Copp, Petan, Armia. So there wasn't room for Stemp or Tlusty in the top of the lineup, and the Jets preferred youth for spots lower in the lineup. That's what I hoped they would do, though I would have preferred that they keep Stemp over one of their muscle guys. I've realized that's a hopeless case because coach loves Thorbs and wants Peluso in reserve.

 

[Whileee]

I don't disagree with your point but the Oilers are a terrible example to use. The only got 1 player out of (almost) every draft, their 1st round pick. That pick was shoved into the NHL right out of the draft. Then they made a lot of other mistakes to go with that bad drafting.

Still, all good teams have ensured that vets are around to mentor youth. I don't think it's a terrible idea, though I would have preferred the Jets to sell UFAs, most notably Frolik last year.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Still, all good teams have ensured that vets are around to mentor youth. I don't think it's a terrible idea, though I would have preferred the Jets to sell UFAs, most notably Frolik last year.

I'm more with Hunter. After the 1st season the soft tanking should have started, adding more prospects and picks and higher picks. The honeymoon should have been used to suck instead of year 5, year ?

Water under the bridge. Now it is just important to get the most out of Ladd and Buff so that the suckage doesn't last too long.

 

[Moon Man]

I simply gave a summary of the interview, and was jumped all over with claims that I purposely misrepresented Chevy's comments about the vets that weren't re-signed. It was not my intent to discuss Stempniak again.

I maintain my summary of the interview is accurate. Other posters who listened have agreed with me, but you are free to disagree. Others can listen for themselves.

Youth movement and usage is linked. Stafford was signed to play top six as a vet. Bottom six roles were left open for youth - Burmi, Ehlers, Copp, Petan, Armia. So there wasn't room for Stemp or Tlusty in the top of the lineup, and the Jets preferred youth for spots lower in the lineup. That's what I hoped they would do, though I would have preferred that they keep Stemp over one of their muscle guys. I've realized that's a hopeless case because coach loves Thorbs and wants Peluso in reserve.

I would have liked us to sign Stemp (he seemed like a good guy, who wanted to stay here, has decent skills too) for a year or two and have either Burmi/Copp/Petan/Armia as first call up but I can understand it the other way too. These guys have to break the line up at some point. Looking back now in the season, we were obviously too hopeful on some, but it's still good for them to see what it takes to be in the NHL. Now hopefully the ones who didn't make it, or are struggling, know where the bar is, that they have to reach for, which is good.

Like many here, I consider the Ladd/Buff situation more important then hopeful playoffs. It's in my mind every day.

We can't let guys like these walk for nothing, we have to either sign them to reasonable contracts, or try to get the biggest hauls we can for them. They are like big fish. You have to either decide to cherish the fish for yourself or sell/trade the fish to someone else because sooner or later the fish will go bad. Has anyone here smelt rotten fish? You don't want to.

 

[Board Bard]

Okay, here's the verbatim excerpt from Chevy's interview:

...last year we obviously made some acquisitions at the end, we acquired some players that played for us, gave us a lot of good depth as we moved forward. Quite a few of those players that we acquired, generally speaking in their minds and certainly in their games, they like to be higher in the lineup than certainly some of the spots that they ended up playing for us down the stretch and in the playoffs. Again, if you're a team that has those type of options in front of you, you certainly take them, but like anything we're a team that's going to try to make steps and move forward in the bigger scheme of things and providing opportunities for some younger players certainly was something that presented itself.

Although Chevy doesn't name the players specifically, in this case mainly Stempniak (but Tlusty too), it is reasonable to infer that he is talking about him, so I will concede that he was at least halfways specific in that.

However, when he says "generally speaking in their minds and certainly in their games, they like to be higher in the lineup than certainly some of the spots that they ended up playing for us," this is not the same as saying that's what they told him. Nowhere does he say they told him that, only that it is some general sense he had that he somehow knew what was in their minds. Evidently Chevy has ESP, and he uses it to shape his roster, or at least to put Lawless and Jets fans off the scent.

If he would have just said "Some of them wanted to return to Winnipeg but we decided to go with the kids and with Thorburn and with Peluso," he would not have violated anything he didn't violate anyway in the interview, plus he would not have created the impression that Stemp (and whoever else) demanded higher roster spots, and finally he would have more accurately described how he values plugs over real hockey players.

 

[Jets 31]

Okay, here's the verbatim excerpt from Chevy's interview:



Although Chevy doesn't name the players specifically, in this case mainly Stempniak (but Tlusty too), it is reasonable to infer that he is talking about him, so I will concede that he was at least halfways specific in that.

However, when he says "generally speaking in their minds and certainly in their games, they like to be higher in the lineup than certainly some of the spots that they ended up playing for us," this is not the same as saying that's what they told him. Nowhere does he say they told him that, only that it is some general sense he had that he somehow knew what was in their minds. Evidently Chevy has ESP, and he uses it to shape his roster, or at least to put Lawless and Jets fans off the scent.

If he would have just said "Some of them wanted to return to Winnipeg but we decided to go with the kids and with Thorburn and with Peluso," he would not have violated anything he didn't violate anyway in the interview, plus he would not have created the impression that Stemp (and whoever else) demanded higher roster spots, and finally he would have more accurately described how he values plugs over real hockey players.

I agree with you , i guess if he said we wanted to go with youth this season ... he doesn't have a answer for Thorburn and Peluso

 

[KingBogo]

Again we agree, even more to my point. This core should of been evaluated much earlier than now (if we assume Chevy now realizes this core isn't good enough). Thus they should of been converted into prospects & picks or young NHLer's much sooner so they could of been developing for 1-2-3 years now. Not to mention our return on buff or Ladd would of higher if they 1-2 years of term vs pure rental value......thus again we would of accelerated our development with even more prospects/picks and/or greater quality ones.

I agree with this. My only caution is that I think there is a danger in bringing in a lot of young players to a terrible team without strong veteran leadership. The Oilers squandered a lot of their opportunities by failing to create a healthy environment for young players. I expect that the Jets brass wanted a good environment as they started bringing in youth. Now younger players like Scheifele will be able to mentor rookies.

The flip side of this strategy is that, when the roster is so bare of NHL talent, you have to start moving the kids in sooner than you'd like to. It happened with Kane, it happened with Burmi, it probably happened with Bogosian. If you have enough NHL talent around, you can try to move the younger players in a bit sooner. Bogo and Buff made Trouba's entry a bit easier, for example. It's easy to say that X should've been moved 2 years ago, because you don't have to see what life would be like with these kids in these spots. You have to ice a team of 18 skaters and 2 goalies 82 nights out of the year. If it's not established NHL players, it's the youth that you're trying to develop.

The only player I think that was probably rushed but didn't get hurt by it was Scheifele. Ehlers would learn nothing more in junior, ie. he wouldn't be developing. It's to his benefit that he's not being relied on to be a heavy contributor.

I think we'll start to see movement from the Jets side after the ASB. It's close to the end of the big home stand, and there will be meetings in Nashville around that time. This month will make or break the season.

I fully agree with this line of thinking. If I have one big criticism of Chevy it was not transitioning the older core out earlier when they had more value. But I do understand it to some extent. When we first got the team there was no one in the development system of any real value so if you trade off your roster players for picks and prospects who plays in the NHL for you? As it was 1/2 the lineup was a mish mash of fading guys playing out the last couple years of their careers. If we would have moved guys like Buff, Ladd and Enstrom at that time we would have been Oilers bad and then some. Maybe it would have been the right thing to do? I certainly would be up for the ride. But I think TNSE wanted a better fan experience than that. After all it is a relatively small pool of fans that are Jets junkies like those found around here. Many fans spend lots of money and couldn't name more than 1-2 prospects and identify solely with the top players wearing Jets jerseys night after night.

To Chevy's credit he has drafted very well and there is a lot of very nice young talent in the system. And for the most part it is not being held back. Some can argue it is being rushed. Maybe by the old "over-ripen" standard of the Wings heydays but not be today's NHL standards. So IMO we are kind of at the half way point. The team is still built around the older core (and yes this includes Thor and Stuart) but all the support pieces are now the highly touted prospects instead of the older depth players that populated the roster in past years. But now IMO Chevy needs to complete the transition. If he thought he could win with this core he should have converted some of his top prospects into NHL talent in its prime if you wanted to mesh with a core hitting the back side of their prime. Since he is obviously moving in the other direction with a full scale youth movement. 9 rookies have been introduced now in 2 1/2 seasons. It would have been 10 if Petan had stuck.

It is now time to be decisive. Move Ladd and Buff for what you can. Add more picks and prospects. Maybe you get lucky with a #1 center or franchise d-man. But either way that is the direction you have steered the ship. If you try to straddle the line this will likely end in several years of mediocrity. If you develop your prospect pool to this point but then hitch the wagon to UFA's in their 30's on long term expensive contracts that will tie up your cap we will continue to straddle the middle for years to come.

 

[surixon]

I fully agree with this line of thinking. If I have one big criticism of Chevy it was not transitioning the older core out earlier when they had more value. But I do understand it to some extent. When we first got the team there was no one in the development system of any real value so if you trade off your roster players for picks and prospects who plays in the NHL for you? As it was 1/2 the lineup was a mish mash of fading guys playing out the last couple years of their careers. If we would have moved guys like Buff, Ladd and Enstrom at that time we would have been Oilers bad and then some. Maybe it would have been the right thing to do? I certainly would be up for the ride. But I think TNSE wanted a better fan experience than that. After all it is a relatively small pool of fans that are Jets junkies like those found around here. Many fans spend lots of money and couldn't name more than 1-2 prospects and identify solely with the top players wearing Jets jerseys night after night.

To Chevy's credit he has drafted very well and there is a lot of very nice young talent in the system. And for the most part it is not being held back. Some can argue it is being rushed. Maybe by the old "over-ripen" standard of the Wings heydays but not be today's NHL standards. So IMO we are kind of at the half way point. The team is still built around the older core (and yes this includes Thor and Stuart) but all the support pieces are now the highly touted prospects instead of the older depth players that populated the roster in past years. But now IMO Chevy needs to complete the transition. If he thought he could win with this core he should have converted some of his top prospects into NHL talent in its prime if you wanted to mesh with a core hitting the back side of their prime. Since he is obviously moving in the other direction with a full scale youth movement. 9 rookies have been introduced now in 2 1/2 seasons. It would have been 10 if Petan had stuck.

It is now time to be decisive. Move Ladd and Buff for what you can. Add more picks and prospects. Maybe you get lucky with a #1 center or franchise d-man. But either way that is the direction you have steered the ship. If you try to straddle the line this will likely end in several years of mediocrity. If you develop your prospect pool to this point but then hitch the wagon to UFA's in their 30's on long term expensive contracts that will tie up your cap we will continue to straddle the middle for years to come.

This sums up my position on Chevy. We had so little in the way of forward depth the first couple of years here that Chevy needed to go to the waiver wire constantly to fill spots. I don't think a full blown Oiler tank would have worked here for many of the same reasons it didn't work in Edmonton, Winnipeg would have had a hard time attracting quality UFA vets in FA to this market to guide the kids after scorching the earth. We now have enough young talent on the roster augmenting the older core that we can afford to deal some of our older pieces and make the transition. It really comes down to the handling of Ladd and Buff for me with Chevy.

 

[Whileee]

The Jets can also consider a quick build if they trade both Ladd and Buff for 1st rounders at the trade deadline. They could then trade a pick or two for NHL ready talent at the draft when picks are at a premium. Buy low, sell high on draft picks.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

This sums up my position on Chevy. We had so little in the way of forward depth the first couple of years here that Chevy needed to go to the waiver wire constantly to fill spots. I don't think a full blown Oiler tank would have worked here for many of the same reasons it didn't work in Edmonton, Winnipeg would have had a hard time attracting quality UFA vets in FA to this market to guide the kids after scorching the earth. We now have enough young talent on the roster augmenting the older core that we can afford to deal some of our older pieces and make the transition. It really comes down to the handling of Ladd and Buff for me with Chevy.

I don't see this, maybe with the exception of Ehlers. I see young talent that was rushed in as opposed to developed, struggling to get more than about 6 minutes of ice time per game out of the coach. We have two regular fwds out now for a couple of games and everyone including Jets commentators are talking about how thin the Jets are at forward. On Ehlers, I think his play probably would have him spending some time in the AHL if he was eligible but he isn't so he stays up. Well, at least Armia has looked like he belongs most of the time. But overall, I don't see enough young talent other than at goaltender.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

What's your cut-off for youth? I'd consider Scheif, Trouba, Burmi, etc as part of the "younger" core that could potentially start taking over if moves are made to turn the older core over for futures.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

I would consider any one under the age of 23 or less then 60 games played in the NHL as youthful even if they are a 30 year old rookie

 

[cbcwpg]

I don't see this, maybe with the exception of Ehlers. I see young talent that was rushed in as opposed to developed, struggling to get more than about 6 minutes of ice time per game out of the coach. We have two regular fwds out now for a couple of games and everyone including Jets commentators are talking about how thin the Jets are at forward. On Ehlers, I think his play probably would have him spending some time in the AHL if he was eligible but he isn't so he stays up. Well, at least Armia has looked like he belongs most of the time. But overall, I don't see enough young talent other than at goaltender.

And it's interesting because the highlighted is exactly what some people were saying the Thrashers did wrong all those years... they rushed their youth. Now in the case of the Thrashers though I do believe they rushed their young players in an effort to keep salary costs down as much as possible and nothing to do with thinking these players were ready.

For the Jets, I'm hoping that they just misjudged some of the players readiness this season and this isn't just to trim the fat and run the team at the cap floor. To me the fact that they sent Scheif back in his first season points to them being a bit more patient and the current youth movement just maybe being a bit misjudged.

Ehlers is the tricky one because leaving him in junior was useless and he can't play in the AHL ( which is wrong IMO and a whole other rant ) so he has to play with the Jets.

 

[CaptainChef]

It is now time to be decisive. Move Ladd and Buff for what you can. Add more picks and prospects. Maybe you get lucky with a #1 center or franchise d-man. But either way that is the direction you have steered the ship. If you try to straddle the line this will likely end in several years of mediocrity. If you develop your prospect pool to this point but then hitch the wagon to UFA's in their 30's on long term expensive contracts that will tie up your cap we will continue to straddle the middle for years to come.

This much is obvious to most ardent fans. But, is it obvious to Chevy & Mo or will they make the mistake of hitching their wagons to Ladd (our over the hill "leader"). If they do, I agree, we will rue the day & go nowhere for a long long time.

 

[Whileee]

This much is obvious to most ardent fans. But, is it obvious to Chevy & Mo or will they make the mistake of hitching their wagons to Ladd (our over the hill "leader"). If they do, I agree, we will rue the day & go nowhere for a long long time.

I think it's pretty clear that Chevy hasn't decided to "hitch the wagon" to Ladd, otherwise he would have signed him by now. They've given every indication that they're prepared to move on to a younger core, even though it's meant that they might not make the playoffs this year.

I think that they might still sign Ladd, but only if the terms are very favourable. Same with Buff. The further this goes, the more I think that they'll trade both of them before the TDL, name Wheeler captain, and build around the younger core.

 

[CaptainChef]

I don't see this, maybe with the exception of Ehlers. I see young talent that was rushed in as opposed to developed, struggling to get more than about 6 minutes of ice time per game out of the coach. We have two regular fwds out now for a couple of games and everyone including Jets commentators are talking about how thin the Jets are at forward. On Ehlers, I think his play probably would have him spending some time in the AHL if he was eligible but he isn't so he stays up. Well, at least Armia has looked like he belongs most of the time. But overall, I don't see enough young talent other than at goaltender.

Jets have plenty of young talent. Ehlers will be phenomenal. Petan, if he's ever placed in a position to succeed, will be very good. I bet Morrissey will be a top-4 D for the Jets in less than 4 years. Connor has incredible skills although it may take him 2+ years to get here. Roslovik, De Leo, etc, have lots of potential. Jets should be able to get a couple more decent prospects IF they play their cards right with Ladd & Buff.

How & when all these prospects will be integrated is the big question. I've not been too impressed with PMos usage of some of his most skilled prospects to date, but maybe he'll learn something from watching how other teams in the playoffs (specifically how they put their skilled prospects in positions to succeed)

 

[CaptainChef]

I think it's pretty clear that Chevy hasn't decided to "hitch the wagon" to Ladd, otherwise he would have signed him by now. They've given every indication that they're prepared to move on to a younger core, even though it's meant that they might not make the playoffs this year.

I think that they might still sign Ladd, but only if the terms are very favourable. Same with Buff. The further this goes, the more I think that they'll trade both of them before the TDL, name Wheeler captain, and build around the younger core.

I'm a lot less convinced than you are. From everything I've heard, I suspect they have been very active in trying to get him signed but it was Ladd's camp that nixed the deal. Is that offer still on the table & being rejigged, or has management finally got cold feet when it comes to Ladd? That's the question

My question for you is what do they do with Ladd if they win a few more games than they lose in the next month & hang close enough to the playoff line to make them think they have a shot. Do you seriously envision that they would have the guts to do the right thing with their "leader" in that situation??

Or do they just let it ride, thinking that they'll just do the best long-term deal they can with the guy. If they do that, we're all pretty convinced where this will eventually lead us. And that's only Ladd, we also have Buff that will not be traded & will have to be dealt with if we are close to the bubble.

 

[Jets 31]

You know Ladd used to stand right in front of the goalies and redirect shots for alot of goals but i rarely see him doing this anymore , i wonder why ? If it was up to me i would resign Buff but Ladd has to go , unless Ladd would sign a 4 or 5 year deal at 5 million a year .... ya i know , no way he signs that deal so buu buy Ladd .