Post-Game Talk: Jets fall to the Ducks 4-1

[Duke749]

Agreed, the talent level meme is just lazy. -18 on special teams, that's a whole lot of games lost.

Seems like every game we've lost in the past couple of weeks was because of losing the special teams battle. And not only losing it, but giving up multiple PP goals and not even scoring once on the PP.

 

[castle]

I believe that was our 9th B2B
already which is almost 1/2 our schedule
I have to wonder besides our special teams and goaltending how much this has affected us.
We have to be close to having one of the tougher schedules for the first half of the season
Does anyone have a reference to strength of schedules so far ?

espn has a 'relative power index' which includes a strength of schedule. I think it's just the average point percentage of opponents, but I'm not sure. according to that, Winnipeg has had the 4th hardest schedule (Carolina, Montreal, Columbus are top 3). LA, Anaheim, Washington have had the easiest. that doesn't take into account B2B, but it's a start.

because it includes SOS, the Jets' RPI is actually higher than Anaheim.

 

[Whileee]

I believe that was our 9th B2B
already which is almost 1/2 our schedule
I have to wonder besides our special teams and goaltending how much this has affected us.
We have to be close to having one of the tougher schedules for the first half of the season
Does anyone have a reference to strength of schedules so far ?

Jets are tied for 4th in terms of strength of schedule (opponents' records), but when you consider the home / road balance and the inordinate travel and number of back-to-backs the Jets have clearly had the most difficult schedule in the NHL so far this year. That probably accounts for a few or even several points in the standings, but they still don't look consistent enough to be considered a playoff team.

 

[Ducky10]

Seems like every game we've lost in the past couple of weeks was because of losing the special teams battle. And not only losing it, but giving up multiple PP goals and not even scoring once on the PP.

Going back to the Dec.11 Hawks loss the Jets have given up multiple PPG in every loss except Calgary (1) and Edmonton (0). Conversely, they haven't scored a single PP goal in any of those losses.

That's just awful.

 

[Derfel*]

Jets are tied for 4th in terms of strength of schedule (opponents' records), but when you consider the home / road balance and the inordinate travel and number of back-to-backs the Jets have clearly had the most difficult schedule in the NHL so far this year. That probably accounts for a few or even several points in the standings, but they still don't look consistent enough to be considered a playoff team.

At worst it probably accounts for 6 lost points. Where would 6 more points get us?

 

[CaptainChef]

The team we played las night has a very different story.

Times shorthanded

Winnipeg 148 (39GP)
Anaheim 132 (38GP)

So they are almost as undisciplined as we are but

PP goals allowed

Winnipeg 35 (30th) 76.3% (29th)
Anaheim 15 (1st) 88.6% (1st)

Do we need to start drafting for PK talent?

Whats the use - -we have a dang good PKer like Frolic & Chevy fritters him away. Based on their offseason moves (lack of), Jets have what they deserve.

 

[Whileee]

At worst it probably accounts for 6 lost points. Where would 6 more points get us?

On the verge of the playoffs at this point?

 

[Aavco Cup]

Whats the use - -we have a dang good PKer like Frolic & Chevy fritters him away. Based on their offseason moves (lack of), Jets have what they deserve.

Was Frolik even in the top 5 forwards PK TOI last year?

 

[Whileee]

Was Frolik even in the top 5 forwards PK TOI last year?

He averaged 1:35 TOI SH last year, behind these forwards....

Slater, Galiardi, Little, Ladd, Kane, Wheeler.....

 

[Howard Chuck]

Going back to the Dec.11 Hawks loss the Jets have given up multiple PPG in every loss except Calgary (1) and Edmonton (0). Conversely, they haven't scored a single PP goal in any of those losses.

That's just awful.

First we have to figure out why we are taking so many penalties. The roughing or fighting penalties are easy to figure out, but why are we hooking, tripping and interfering so much? I honestly think it's because we can't compete any other way, and that is either because we don't have the talent, or we do have the talent and they are lazy.

Special teams also shows us the level of either talent or motivation.

We have a select few players who show up mostly every night, but a majority or can't or won't. I don't have a preference whether it's 'can't' or 'won't', but I think it's one or the other. I can't blame it all on coaching (although it's certainly playing a part as well).

 

[Ducky10]

Was Frolik even in the top 5 forwards PK TOI last year?

5th I believe, but the leader was Slater, so there's that.

Edit, Total SH TOI for the season, not average.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

At worst it probably accounts for 6 lost points. Where would 6 more points get us?

1pt behind the last WC spot.

 

[Ducky10]

First we have to figure out why we are taking so many penalties. The roughing or fighting penalties are easy to figure out, but why are we hooking, tripping and interfering so much? I honestly think it's because we can't compete any other way, and that is either because we don't have the talent, or we do have the talent and they are lazy.

Special teams also shows us the level of either talent or motivation.

We have a select few players who show up mostly every night, but a majority or can't or won't. I don't have a preference whether it's 'can't' or 'won't', but I think it's one or the other. I can't blame it all on coaching (although it's certainly playing a part as well).

So it's either talent or effort level? Sorry, I disagree, I don't see an issue with the Jets effort level and I don't believe they lack talent level to be better on special teams. Imo it is definitely personnel and system related when it comes to special teams, Stuart on the PK and Ladd on the PP come to mind first, change the personnel and then re-evaluate the system.

Penalties aren't always a matter of not having the talent to compete, sometimes they're lazy, sometimes it's bad calls but most often it's a matter of discipline, both the players and coaching staff need to be accountable for the latter.

 

[surixon]

First we have to figure out why we are taking so many penalties. The roughing or fighting penalties are easy to figure out, but why are we hooking, tripping and interfering so much? I honestly think it's because we can't compete any other way, and that is either because we don't have the talent, or we do have the talent and they are lazy.

Special teams also shows us the level of either talent or motivation.

We have a select few players who show up mostly every night, but a majority or can't or won't. I don't have a preference whether it's 'can't' or 'won't', but I think it's one or the other. I can't blame it all on coaching (although it's certainly playing a part as well).

When looking at the team's penalty leaders we find that 5 if the top 7 are defenseman which makes me wonder if there is something off with our system that causes are defenders to take more penalties. It should be pointed out that our forwards for the most part are decently disciplined in comparison with only Ladd, Lowry, Peluso and Thor with greater than 20 penalty minutes. Our skilled forwards are actually very disciplined for the most part.

My biggest problem is Buff. He leads the team in penalty minutes by 12 and while he sometimes gets unfairly dinged for being so big, there are still way too many lazy penalties like that slash the other night. He's clearly talented enough that he shouldn't be as undisciplined as he is.

 

[Derfel*]

1pt behind the last WC spot.

True enough. Possibly in the WC spot at best.

 

[CaptainChef]

Surprised to see that we are not the worst in the NHL for PK or PP. Worst for both is Calgary & they are a couple % points worse than us for both!

 

[KCjetsfan]

i'm at the point where i just want some entertainment from my 2.5 hour commitment to them. I got it in AZ with a loss, I definitely did not get it in ANA.

sad, I think.

 

[Howard Chuck]

So it's either talent or effort level? Sorry, I disagree, I don't see an issue with the Jets effort level and I don't believe they lack talent level to be better on special teams. Imo it is definitely personnel and system related when it comes to special teams, Stuart on the PK and Ladd on the PP come to mind first, change the personnel and then re-evaluate the system.

Penalties aren't always a matter of not having the talent to compete, sometimes they're lazy, sometimes it's bad calls but most often it's a matter of discipline, both the players and coaching staff need to be accountable for the latter.

I think we agree in a way. Discipline and effort level are related in my opinion. For example, you can stop skating and hook or you can skate your butt off and make an actual hockey play. Discipline or lazy? In either case, it needs to be fixed.

If we have the talent level, then they are certainly not demonstrating it on a consistent basis.

 

[Howard Chuck]

When looking at the team's penalty leaders we find that 5 if the top 7 are defenseman which makes me wonder if there is something off with our system that causes are defenders to take more penalties. It should be pointed out that our forwards for the most part are decently disciplined in comparison with only Ladd, Lowry, Peluso and Thor with greater than 20 penalty minutes. Our skilled forwards are actually very disciplined for the most part.

My biggest problem is Buff. He leads the team in penalty minutes by 12 and while he sometimes gets unfairly dinged for being so big, there are still way too many lazy penalties like that slash the other night. He's clearly talented enough that he shouldn't be as undisciplined as he is.

Buff does get some unfair calls, but he gets more that he deserves.

Ladd is horrible with his stick, it's always in the other players hands and makes me crazy. Watching other teams, they are able to skate and take away possession, I don't know why we can't unless we just aren't able.

If we are able, then our coach had better do something about it. It's killing us.

 

[surixon]

Buff does get some unfair calls, but he gets more that he deserves.

Ladd is horrible with his stick, it's always in the other players hands and makes me crazy. Watching other teams, they are able to skate and take away possession, I don't know why we can't unless we just aren't able.

If we are able, then our coach had better do something about it. It's killing us.

It's interesting trying to isolate the penalty issue on the team. As stated our top 6 combined has 13 less penalty minutes than our two biggest culprits (Buff and Trouba), which leads me to believe that there isn't a skill or that big of a discipline issue with regards to the top of the line up. Sure guys like Ladd could clean up his stick infractions a bit but I don't think those players need that much adjusting.

Buff and Trouba are clearly skilled enough players that they shouldn't need to take penalties to compete. Trouba has been much more disciplined since being moved over to play with Buff which leads me to believe most of his issues earlier were due to having to cover for Stuart. Buff on the other hand has continued to take penalties regularly which points out to me that he's undisciplined and clean up his act.

The other big culprits are Thorburn and Stuart who both are tasked with playing bigger roles than they are capable of and likely take penalties due to a lack of talent and some discipline issues. The simplest solution would be to upgrade these spots with more talented players.

 

[Hhane Snidy]

It's interesting trying to isolate the penalty issue on the team. As stated our top 6 combined has 13 less penalty minutes than our two biggest culprits (Buff and Trouba), which leads me to believe that there isn't a skill or that big of a discipline issue with regards to the top of the line up. Sure guys like Ladd could clean up his stick infractions a bit but I don't think those players need that much adjusting.

Buff and Trouba are clearly skilled enough players that they shouldn't need to take penalties to compete. Trouba has been much more disciplined since being moved over to play with Buff which leads me to believe most of his issues earlier were due to having to cover for Stuart. Buff on the other hand has continued to take penalties regularly which points out to me that he's undisciplined and clean up his act.

The other big culprits are Thorburn and Stuart who both are tasked with playing bigger roles than they are capable of and likely take penalties due to a lack of talent and some discipline issues. The simplest solution would be to upgrade these spots with more talented players.

What a great post.

 

[Aavco Cup]

Surprised to see that we are not the worst in the NHL for PK or PP. Worst for both is Calgary & they are a couple % points worse than us for both!

Calgary has only given up 24 PP goals because they don't get penalized as much as we do. We need to get better at the PK or we need to go less often to the box. Preferrably a little of both.

 

[Howard Chuck]

It's interesting trying to isolate the penalty issue on the team. As stated our top 6 combined has 13 less penalty minutes than our two biggest culprits (Buff and Trouba), which leads me to believe that there isn't a skill or that big of a discipline issue with regards to the top of the line up. Sure guys like Ladd could clean up his stick infractions a bit but I don't think those players need that much adjusting.

Buff and Trouba are clearly skilled enough players that they shouldn't need to take penalties to compete. Trouba has been much more disciplined since being moved over to play with Buff which leads me to believe most of his issues earlier were due to having to cover for Stuart. Buff on the other hand has continued to take penalties regularly which points out to me that he's undisciplined and clean up his act.

The other big culprits are Thorburn and Stuart who both are tasked with playing bigger roles than they are capable of and likely take penalties due to a lack of talent and some discipline issues. The simplest solution would be to upgrade these spots with more talented players.

That's an interesting analysis of the penalty minutes.

 

[Howard Chuck]

Well we all have our theories of what the cause is behind the penalties and how we defend them. I hope that the coaching staff is look as hard at it, because it sure doesn't seem like they've done much about it.

 

[Hank Chinaski]

It's just easier to point to lack of talent. But our horrid special teams in combination with terrible goaltending and it's a wonder we're losing so many games.

Hopefully the goaltending is in a process of being fixed not only short term, but long term with Hellebuyck. As far as the PP and PK, I got no idea. I do have one idea. Remove the special teams coach.

Yep, the "lack of talent" meme is a bit lazy and not very accurate IMO.

It is hard for my to pin all the special teams struggles on coaching. Not saying anything new, but the Jets use some really, really bad players on their penalty kill. No one has come even remotely close to replacing what Kane and Frolik were capable of on the PK.

I do think the powerplay would benefit from better coaching, but again, there are personnel issues as well. They seem to lack a true quarterback on the first unit.