Post-Game Talk: Jets 3, Sabres 4 - The collapse

[Howard Chuck]

I am very happy with the forwards overall.

I think its the last thing we should be worried about on this team. When healthy, we have more than enough players to fill roles and some nice replacement depth too.

We need to worry about D, coaching and goaltending.

Mostly agree. The only time I'm concerned with forwards is during a PK, when they are too passive. But this could also be considered a defensive problem.

 

[Howard Chuck]

I agree that discipline is a problem. I'd only add one thing to this. The initial roster that Mo inherited was a heavy, grinding team. His stance on penalties at the time was that many of them (minus the stupid stick penalties) were simply a part of the style of game that the Jets played.

Now, you may disagree with Maurice on his stance on penalties with that old roster. But you can't argue he didn't find success with it, in the year we made the playoffs.

Since then, he is having to transition to a completely new style of play. With new, young players. I fully agree we must take less penalties with our more skilled, less grinding players. But this is a work in progress that only started last season. Or perhaps this season is a more accurate starting point, with our full-on youth movement. Transitioning from one style, one identity to another is not an on-off switch.

That being said, I would agree we need to see more progress in this area.

Just one note in the penalties... at the time I was on board with Maurice about the penalties, but only penalties that were a result of physical play such as roughing, etc. Hooking, tripping, interference are the result of being out skated and are simply lazy. A team as young and fast as the Jets shouldn't be outskated or out worked to the extent that they are. We still get away with many lazy plays that could be called above what's what we do get called on.

 

[surixon]

Just one note in the penalties... at the time I was on board with Maurice about the penalties, but only penalties that were a result of physical play such as roughing, etc. Hooking, tripping, interference are the result of being out skated and are simply lazy. A team as young and fast as the Jets shouldn't be outskated or out worked to the extent that they are. We still get away with many lazy plays that could be called above what's what we do get called on.

No team goes balls to the walls all the time. The best teams know when to push and when to lay off. What good teams have is really good systems so that they are in the right spots and don't have to chase/be lazy. I don't think it has anything to do with effort but with properly managing energy levels and having a good enough system that minimizes the amount of work you have to do without the puck. The Jets aren't there yet with regards to having a good system foundation when they don't have the puck. It seems we employ a system defensively that requires a lot of energy, we have players chase the other team hard. Watch some other teams and they keep a solid shape defensively with limited movement and force bad plays/turnovers just using correct reads and good positioning. It allows those teams to conserve energy. In short our coaching needs to instruct the team to work smarter not harder.

 

[LowLefty]

Soft team.
No heart.
No pride.
No killer instinct.
No leadership.
Low hockey IQ.
Poor coaching.
Horrible goaltending.

Year 6.
Why does Chevy still have a job? He is clueless on how to build a winning culture.

You forgot "Very young team" - why not chalk this up to a learning curve rather than blame everyone? Why not enjoy the team as they grow? The Jets need at least another 2 years before they mature into a well oiled machine. I'll give you this, you pretty well covered all aspects of what it takes to lose - but to assume this team is guilty of all the above is silly. The potential is huge and they are fun to watch - go back and read a few thread when the team won - fans are flip floppers - I get it - but don't throw the whole team and coaching staff under the buss when they lose a game.

 

[Puckatron 3000]

I agree that it's not always an easy change but I think you have summed up nicely why imo he has little credibility in regards to turning the discipline around. He allowed the team to get away with certain penalties in his old system so if he now try a to address it the players likely don't take him seriously.

I think it's similar with changing the team systems, he had success running one type with the old guard and now he is implementing a new one and I think there is some push back from some of the veterans. Granted we are seeing a more skilled based system more regularly now but I think it might have been more seamless with a new voice then with a coach who had to change his approach.

Now we may get to the same place by the end of the season anyways especially if management indicates Moe isn't going anywhere. At minnimum I would like to see a new goalie coach brought in this summer and possibly a new assistant to address the PK. The PP looks to slowly be coming around so I'm not that concerned about it.

Your last paragraph I agree with completely. I would add Huddy to that list.

Regarding discipline, and Maurice's credibility problem, I'm less sure on. I'm not sure there is a credibility problem. Personally, I haven't seen any evidence of the players not taking him seriously. Other than the fact we're still taking lots of penalties. But perhaps even some new, bad-ass, iron fisted coach would have similar problems turning this team's discipline around. Or maybe you're right, that a new coach would more easily set a new direction. That's conjecture, which is fine. But I don't think we can know for sure one way or another.

 

[surixon]

Your last paragraph I agree with completely. I would add Huddy to that list.

Regarding discipline, and Maurice's credibility problem, I'm less sure on. I'm not sure there is a credibility problem. Personally, I haven't seen any evidence of the players not taking him seriously. Other than the fact we're still taking lots of penalties. But perhaps even some new, bad-ass, iron fisted coach would have similar problems turning this team's discipline around. Or maybe you're right, that a new coach would more easily set a new direction. That's conjecture, which is fine. But I don't think we can know for sure one way or another.

It's definitely conjecture but people get used to certain behaviors of their boss. If your boss allowed you to leave early every Friday for a year you'd get used to it. Now your boss mandates you stay untyour shift is done, there will likely be push back so you got used to the old circumstances.

But I do agree that the fact that the team as a whole seems to be adapting to his new system albeit more slowly than I would have liked to see indicates that Maurice still very much appears to have the team's ear albeit a couple of pieces need to be reigned in a bit.

 

[Evil Little]

My hipster vote for TSN Turning Point was when Petan had to serve Hellebuyck's two minutes for nice save.

 

[Dayofthedogs]

I like this line alot. I do. Its not having any sort of line on bottom 6 other then them that hurts this team.

Edit. Also if mathias and armia we not injured and played as much as lowry they would be down at his production p/60

I'd agree with this. The Petan line would look a lot better with Dano and Stempniak or Frolik on the wing and probably be closer to a good 3rd line with MLA being the leagues best 4th line.

Just joking about Stemp and Frolik.... love beating that dead horse.

Seriously though... a Connor/Petan/Dan line next year might be fun to watch.

 

[Flair Hay]

My hipster vote for TSN Turning Point was when Petan had to serve Hellebuyck's two minutes for nice save.

That was a ludicrous penalty I was swearing at from the couch.

I get that slashing people's sticks isn't fair game anymore. But it's too far when you are calling a guy for tieing up a stick in the crease.

 

[ecolad]

I have refrained from making any comment on "the hit" until now,because I have been too filled with emotion. My thoughts are:

(1) McCabe has shown in his early career that he has no respect for other player safety, and in fact, prides himself on seeking out "predatory hits" that create maximum damage and pain. He uses a technique whereby he simply watches for the target to be in a compromising spot, awaiting a pass, and then approaches aggressively hoping to time the hit with the arrival of the puck. Planned, anticipatory, and very impactful. Certainly not illegal but an approach that most players and the League do not find favor with. Since the League is literally helpless to stop these "predatory hits", things will change only when McCabe himself finds that he has become the target and gains some first-hand respect for the real consequences of such hits.

(2) Almost everyone (including Maurice) has jumped to the conclusion that there was nothing technically wrong or illegal with the actual contact itself. Everyone is satisfied that McCabe`s skates are still at least arguably on the ice at impact- therefore no foul. If you watch carefully however McCabe uses a unique hitting style as well -generally lowering his body mass slightly by flexing his knees, then literally thrusting himself forward and upward by staightening his legs, facing squarely towards the target. The raised arms/shoulders usually deliver the blow so generated but the helmeted head also can, as in this unfortunate case, make contact as well. The Dept, of Safety should, in my opinion, look at this as exactly the same as visibly having one`s skates leave the ice surface.

I suspect however that there will be no review and of course young McCabe will continue with his bragging in his pressers and will continue to seek predatory hits (until he has his own come-to-Jesus moment). [mod]

 

[Whileee]

I have refrained from making any comment on "the hit" until now,because I have been too filled with emotion. My thoughts are:

(1) McCabe has shown in his early career that he has no respect for other player safety, and in fact, prides himself on seeking out "predatory hits" that create maximum damage and pain. He uses a technique whereby he simply watches for the target to be in a compromising spot, awaiting a pass, and then approaches aggressively hoping to time the hit with the arrival of the puck. Planned, anticipatory, and very impactful. Certainly not illegal but an approach that most players and the League do not find favor with. Since the League is literally helpless to stop these "predatory hits", things will change only when McCabe himself finds that he has become the target and gains some first-hand respect for the real consequences of such hits.

(2) Almost everyone (including Maurice) has jumped to the conclusion that there was nothing technically wrong or illegal with the actual contact itself. Everyone is satisfied that McCabe`s skates are still at least arguably on the ice at impact- therefore no foul. If you watch carefully however McCabe uses a unique hitting style as well -generally lowering his body mass slightly by flexing his knees, then literally thrusting himself forward and upward by staightening his legs, facing squarely towards the target. The raised arms/shoulders usually deliver the blow so generated but the helmeted head also can, as in this unfortunate case, make contact as well. The Dept, of Safety should, in my opinion, look at this as exactly the same as visibly having one`s skates leave the ice surface.

I suspect however that there will be no review and of course young McCabe will continue with his bragging in his pressers and will continue to seek predatory hits (until he has his own come-to-Jesus moment). [mod]

Actually, I agree. It looked like McCabe was "hunting" for that big hit on Laine, and he got a bit lucky. Often, that is a mis-timed play and he'll get caught. The timing has to be perfect, or Laine chips it past him and is gone. Neither Laine nor Scheifele expected McCabe to be moving up for that hit, because it was an unusual decision, especially against a fast and talented line.

The hit itself wasn't illegal, and lots of hockey fans have traditionally liked that kind of play. Scott Stevens was famous for that type of play. But it wasn't as though it was just a run-of-the-mill play. He took a gamble and cruised up to make a big hit, and he was successful. Players know the intent, and they likely will remember that next time they play McCabe. Laine and others will keep their heads up. Buff, Lowry, etc. will want to make sure he feels some pain and try to take some starch out of his game.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

You forgot "Very young team" - why not chalk this up to a learning curve .

Very young team does not have to mean poor team. Look at the Blue Jackets. Its time to stop the excuses and for Jets fans to expect better.

The culture of acceptable mediocrity has to end.

 

[KingBogo]

Very young team does not have to mean poor team. Look at the Blue Jackets. Its time to stop the excuses and for Jets fans to expect better.

The culture of acceptable mediocrity has to end.

Actually the Blue Jackets are a great example of how quickly fortunes can change for a very young team as they start to gain experience. Last year they were a complete mess and last in their division. This season the are cruising along in 1st. Last season they were a very bad team. The same players a year older this season are a very good team.

 

[Howard Chuck]

Just want to say that there is a lot of great conversion in this thread on the team and it's issues. I appreciate the thoughts and how they are presented.

 

[Male75FromFinland]

Actually the Blue Jackets are a great example of how quickly fortunes can change for a very young team as they start to gain experience. Last year they were a complete mess and last in their division. This season the are cruising along in 1st. Last season they were a very bad team. The same players a year older this season are a very good team.

Blue Jackets has coach who demand nothing short of perfection from its leaders when it comes about playing for the team.

 

[KingBogo]

Blue Jackets has coach who demand nothing short of perfection from its leaders when it comes about playing for the team.

I didn't say we didn't need a better coach, just that a very young team can go from very inconsistent mess to a very strong team in a relatively short period of time if the talent is there.

 

[ffh]

Actually the Blue Jackets are a great example of how quickly fortunes can change for a very young team as they start to gain experience. Last year they were a complete mess and last in their division. This season the are cruising along in 1st. Last season they were a very bad team. The same players a year older this season are a very good team.

They were very bad for the 1st 2 weeks of year. After 0-7 start they went 8 games over .500 the rest of the way. Laine ehlers and morrissey are the only kids who should have played this year.

 

[Male75FromFinland]

I didn't say we didn't need a better coach, just that a very young team can go from very inconsistent mess to a very strong team in a relatively short period of time if the talent is there.

Agree, and we should seriously consider who of our veterans will be with the team 5 years from now and start making tough decisions to clear room for younger players.

We have young player for every position that needs more experience (good and bad) and are ready to take bigger role

Hellenbyuck
Morrisey
Trouba
Ehlers
Scheifele
Laine

 

[ForsakenSabre]

I have refrained from making any comment on "the hit" until now,because I have been too filled with emotion. My thoughts are:

(1) McCabe has shown in his early career that he has no respect for other player safety, and in fact, prides himself on seeking out "predatory hits" that create maximum damage and pain. He uses a technique whereby he simply watches for the target to be in a compromising spot, awaiting a pass, and then approaches aggressively hoping to time the hit with the arrival of the puck. Planned, anticipatory, and very impactful. Certainly not illegal but an approach that most players and the League do not find favor with. Since the League is literally helpless to stop these "predatory hits", things will change only when McCabe himself finds that he has become the target and gains some first-hand respect for the real consequences of such hits.

(2) Almost everyone (including Maurice) has jumped to the conclusion that there was nothing technically wrong or illegal with the actual contact itself. Everyone is satisfied that McCabe`s skates are still at least arguably on the ice at impact- therefore no foul. If you watch carefully however McCabe uses a unique hitting style as well -generally lowering his body mass slightly by flexing his knees, then literally thrusting himself forward and upward by staightening his legs, facing squarely towards the target. The raised arms/shoulders usually deliver the blow so generated but the helmeted head also can, as in this unfortunate case, make contact as well. The Dept, of Safety should, in my opinion, look at this as exactly the same as visibly having one`s skates leave the ice surface.

I suspect however that there will be no review and of course young McCabe will continue with his bragging in his pressers and will continue to seek predatory hits (until he has his own come-to-Jesus moment). [mod]

[mod] Most Sabres fans love Laine and were like man why did it have to be him. I hope he comes back soon and owns the rest of the season. He's my favorite rookie. [mod] Here is to a speedy recovery for Laine

 

[Dayofthedogs]

Very young team does not have to mean poor team. Look at the Blue Jackets. Its time to stop the excuses and for Jets fans to expect better.

The culture of acceptable mediocrity has to end.

Let's not forget that Columbus is getting all world goaltending and has been relatively healthy all year. Oh they've also played 4 less games then us and have had a much easier schedule.

Give me a goaltender who puts up a .940 save percentage and a 73% quality start rating and I'll show you a winning coach.

Torts isnt driving that bus to success don't kid yourself.

 

[KingBogo]

They were very bad for the 1st 2 weeks of year. After 0-7 start they went 8 games over .500 the rest of the way. Laine ehlers and morrissey are the only kids who should have played this year.

You are what your record is. They were 2 points below the Jets last season. And what kids shouldn't have been playing this season?

 

[stimpsoncat]

I have refrained from making any comment on "the hit" until now,because I have been too filled with emotion. My thoughts are:

(1) McCabe has shown in his early career that he has no respect for other player safety, and in fact, prides himself on seeking out "predatory hits" that create maximum damage and pain. He uses a technique whereby he simply watches for the target to be in a compromising spot, awaiting a pass, and then approaches aggressively hoping to time the hit with the arrival of the puck. Planned, anticipatory, and very impactful. Certainly not illegal but an approach that most players and the League do not find favor with. Since the League is literally helpless to stop these "predatory hits", things will change only when McCabe himself finds that he has become the target and gains some first-hand respect for the real consequences of such hits.

(2) Almost everyone (including Maurice) has jumped to the conclusion that there was nothing technically wrong or illegal with the actual contact itself. Everyone is satisfied that McCabe`s skates are still at least arguably on the ice at impact- therefore no foul. If you watch carefully however McCabe uses a unique hitting style as well -generally lowering his body mass slightly by flexing his knees, then literally thrusting himself forward and upward by staightening his legs, facing squarely towards the target. The raised arms/shoulders usually deliver the blow so generated but the helmeted head also can, as in this unfortunate case, make contact as well. The Dept, of Safety should, in my opinion, look at this as exactly the same as visibly having one`s skates leave the ice surface.

I suspect however that there will be no review and of course young McCabe will continue with his bragging in his pressers and will continue to seek predatory hits (until he has his own come-to-Jesus moment). [mod]

Great post, I agree completely. Unfortunately, there will always be jerks who try to make these predatory hits, just like theres always going to be jack***** trying to take knees out, deliver head shots, etc. Some players just think its cool to deliver maximum pain and injure other players. They have zero respect for other player safety, which is sad because we're talking about brain injuries here which can not only hurt a career but also ruin a persons life if they take too many. Concussing someone is nothing to brag about. In a perfect world McCabe would at some point find himself on the other side of the equation which might change his attitude but unfortunately this never seems to happen. More likely he will just end up injuring more players with predatory hits and everyone will keep saying "it was a clean hit". It may be clean by the current rules, but it was predatory and he did thrust upwards to produce maximum impact and damage. Theres no way to stop these hits until the players start to have some respect for each other.

 

[ffh]

You are what your record is. They were 2 points below the Jets last season. And what kids shouldn't have been playing this season?

You said they were a mess all year. They were a mess for 2 weeks. They were good for 5.5 months. [mod]

 

[LowLefty]

Very young team does not have to mean poor team. Look at the Blue Jackets. Its time to stop the excuses and for Jets fans to expect better.

The culture of acceptable mediocrity has to end.

They are not a poor team and their young players are doing well considering. They flashed a stat during the intermission that was interesting - top scoring "under 23" line in the league - think about where this line will be in a year or 2. The facts are not excuses - this team is young and you need to be patient with them as they develop. That won't stop many from blaming the coach, goalie, or individuals when they lose - but they will lose as they learn. This ownership group knows that and have been very clear in communicating the youth movement and the rebuild. As for this coaching staff, they will be spending the better part of their time developing the players at a reasonable pace - what's reasonable you ask? 2 or 3 years IMO which is shared by ownership and management. The pcs are now in place (for the most part) and now they need to develop - they're still a blast to watch regardless of the win/loss record.

 

[Eyeseeing]

I have refrained from making any comment on "the hit" until now,because I have been too filled with emotion. My thoughts are:

(1) McCabe has shown in his early career that he has no respect for other player safety, and in fact, prides himself on seeking out "predatory hits" that create maximum damage and pain. He uses a technique whereby he simply watches for the target to be in a compromising spot, awaiting a pass, and then approaches aggressively hoping to time the hit with the arrival of the puck. Planned, anticipatory, and very impactful. Certainly not illegal but an approach that most players and the League do not find favor with. Since the League is literally helpless to stop these "predatory hits", things will change only when McCabe himself finds that he has become the target and gains some first-hand respect for the real consequences of such hits.

(2) Almost everyone (including Maurice) has jumped to the conclusion that there was nothing technically wrong or illegal with the actual contact itself. Everyone is satisfied that McCabe`s skates are still at least arguably on the ice at impact- therefore no foul. If you watch carefully however McCabe uses a unique hitting style as well -generally lowering his body mass slightly by flexing his knees, then literally thrusting himself forward and upward by staightening his legs, facing squarely towards the target. The raised arms/shoulders usually deliver the blow so generated but the helmeted head also can, as in this unfortunate case, make contact as well. The Dept, of Safety should, in my opinion, look at this as exactly the same as visibly having one`s skates leave the ice surface.

I suspect however that there will be no review and of course young McCabe will continue with his bragging in his pressers and will continue to seek predatory hits (until he has his own come-to-Jesus moment). [mod]

[mod]
This is a ridiculous notion.
Great open ice hit nothing more nothing less.
Has the league assessed a suspension ?
Laine will bounce back lesson hopefully learned.
[mod]