Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Part 17

[CLW]

I don't know what your deal is because I haven't even criticized the pick here, in fact, I called it a decent pick. I never said they should have picked this player or that player either. All I did is say that Tkachuk and Hughes have been better and have accomplished more, and that KK is currently on par with a few other players drafted shortly after him in terms of impact. All facts. What is the problem?

It seems to be a general thrust of argument here, among some, that because some players are having more immediate impact they should have been picked ahead of KK.

Maybe I misunderstood your post, I'm just tired of seeing criticism of KK based on flawed reasoning. Also, KK is clearly having the most impact out of any in the 2018 draft class right now since he is having an impact in the post season and they are not, and he played a big part in making it so. He still looks like the best pick to me, all things considered.

 

[le_sean]

He had a ton of beautiful assists in his rookie year as one of the youngest players ever. Watch his AHL highlights. When you can do what he did at 19 you have yourself a helluva prospect. Had he stayed there a full year we'd be going bananas over this kid right now.

He's been inconsistent but he makes incredibly smart passes under pressure. Really saw it against the Laffs.

He had one of the better U18 Liiga seasons in the last however many years. He's just behind Gretzky and Crosby in playoff goals for U21 players. We didn't draft a bum here, guys. lol.

70 pts isn't absurd. It's probably his ceiling but tbh I really can't get a read on his ceiling. If you want to bet against him, that's fine. But if you can't see that he would've obliterated the CHL when he went a PPG in the AHL as a 19 year old for 13 games (doubt he would've dipped too far under a PPG over a whole season) then I don't know what else there is to say.

It is a little absurd to think a guy that has 1 assist in his last 30 games will somehow manage to get 50 assists per season. That’s one hell of a development curve. I hope he does it, I just don’t see it. I see slow reads and delayed decision making. Inconsistency in the good plays he makes and a step behind.

 

[Garbageyuk]

It seems to be a general thrust of argument here, among some, that because some players are having more immediate impact they should have been picked ahead of KK.

Maybe I misunderstood your post, I'm just tired of seeing criticism of KK based on flawed reasoning. Also, KK is clearly having the most impact out of any in the 2018 draft class right now since he is having an impact in the post season and they are not, and he played a big part in making it so. He still looks like the best pick to me, all things considered.

To me the great thing I'm seeing from KK is that he is looking like he'll be a good player even if he doesn't develop the offensive game everyone is hoping for. He plays physical, he works hard, he has decent hockey sense, good size, can pass, score. There isn't really a particular area where he is really lacking. However, personally, I don't see any elite potential anywhere either. This being HF, people take offense to that. It was a good pick. He's had some rough stretches, but everyone knew the Habs needed a center, and he was the best one available. No problem with the pick for me. Imo, he looks like he'll end up a really good 3C, or a solid 2C, or somewhere in between. If he becomes a good all-situations 2C, I'd still take that over a scoring winger or a 1-dimensional OFD. I just don't think he has 1C potential, and I guess that doesn't sit right with some here. Oh well.

 

[TheBuriedHab]

The big question is do you guys go into next season and trust him as the #2 guy. If we let Danault walk we have Suzuki, KK, Evans if healthy, and Poehling down the middle. Or are we forced to bring back Danault?

Look I love he's scoring some important goals, I just worry about relying on him again next year to take a big step when it clearly was too much to ask this season.

 

[Garbageyuk]

It is a little absurd to think a guy that has 1 assist in his last 30 games will somehow manage to get 50 assists per season. That’s one hell of a development curve. I hope he does it, I just don’t see it. I see slow reads and delayed decision making. Inconsistency in the good plays he makes and a step behind.

I see the same thing you do, pretty much. Problem is some people here can't seem to seperate what they'd like to happen from what is likely to happen. Reasonable views have never been popular here, this is HF after all.

 

[WeThreeKings]

The big question is do you guys go into next season and trust him as the #2 guy. If we let Danault walk we have Suzuki, KK, Evans if healthy, and Poehling down the middle. Or are we forced to bring back Danault?

Look I love he's scoring some important goals, I just worry about relying on him again next year to take a big step when it clearly was too much to ask this season.

You have to because Danault isn't gonna sign to play 3rd line center, he's gonna ask for term and money (which he has ever right to do) and the minute you do that, you're pretty much putting KK in a position where he won't be able to blossom offensively.

 

[DAChampion]

The big question is do you guys go into next season and trust him as the #2 guy. If we let Danault walk we have Suzuki, KK, Evans if healthy, and Poehling down the middle. Or are we forced to bring back Danault?

Look I love he's scoring some important goals, I just worry about relying on him again next year to take a big step when it clearly was too much to ask this season.

They can't go with four padawans down the middle. It's risky and then if there's an injury they have to play Dauphin or whoever.

It's either Danault or a UFA.

 

[Archijerej]

The quality of Suzuki, who imo has a very good chance to become a true #1C takes of pressure off Kotkaniemi and allows him to develop at his own pace. The physical maturity will be crucial for his game, as he clearly struggles with balance, coordination and endurance during the course of the season. Having Danault, or another quality middle-6 C is also crucial to provide a pillow for JK for the next 2 years or so.

Now, assuming the current lines remain largely intact next season, who could we target as a winger for Kotkaniemi? I'm assuming Byron is pushed down the lineup. I was thinking of something like Killorn-Kotkaniemi-Anderson/Caufield.

This of course would require clearing Drouin's cap hit of our books.

 

[Archijerej]

You have to because Danault isn't gonna sign to play 3rd line center, he's gonna ask for term and money (which he has ever right to do) and the minute you do that, you're pretty much putting KK in a position where he won't be able to blossom offensively.

That's patently absurd.

He's in a position to produce offensively at this very moment, playing with the second highest paid forward on the team, who was on pace for 30 goals.

Next season, he will be in an even better position to produce, when Byron gets replaced by another winger, or even if Drouin comes back to life.

There's absolutely no need to be hard on Kotkaniemi, but there's equally no need to seek every excuse in the book for him.

 

[Hins77]

We need to stop overthinking about KK celling. If he would be as much dominant than an elite player. He would already showing it. He doesnt. He has some great tools, but he has some weakness too. i doubt he will improve those weakness largely in the NHL to become an elite guy like barkov. He will become a 35-45 points producer on his best year. Like 2nd centerman. But thats all. We don’t need to project our first centerman here. His draft selection shouldnt be third. This is not his fault. Shall we expecting better at 3. Yeah absolutely. But this is what we get

 

[Mrb1p]

We need to stop overthinking about KK celling. If he would be as much dominant than an elite player. He would already showing it. He doesnt. He has some great tools, but he has some weakness too. i doubt he will improve those weakness largely in the NHL to become an elite guy like barkov. He will become a 35-45 points producer on his best year. Like 2nd centerman. But thats all. We don’t need to project our first centerman here. His draft selection shouldnt be third. This is not his fault. Shall we expecting better at 3. Yeah absolutely. But this is what we get

Sounds like a post about Max Pacioretty in 2010.

 

[Mrb1p]

The big question is do you guys go into next season and trust him as the #2 guy. If we let Danault walk we have Suzuki, KK, Evans if healthy, and Poehling down the middle. Or are we forced to bring back Danault?

Look I love he's scoring some important goals, I just worry about relying on him again next year to take a big step when it clearly was too much to ask this season.

If not at 21 in his fourth season, then when do they get serious about actually using him in a top 6 role? He was good this hear before the stretch got ridicilous. He had 20 points in 34 games. Thats a 50 points pace.

Id sign Danault if he 100% accepts hes not getting top 6 minutes unless theres injuries or Id go with someone else. They cant use Poehling, theyd need to sign a vet IMO. Getzlaf, Krejci, Bonino, Nash, Martinook, Bellemare are all good options IMO, depending on how much you want to spend.

Getzlaf on a 2 years deal ? Imagine what hed be able to do for a guy like KK and for the team after seeing Perry.

 

[Hins77]

Sounds like a post about Max Pacioretty in 2010.

I wasnt in pacio shoes Im not in Kk shoes either. Thats rely to him what kind of player he wants to be. He has plenty of time i agree. I would say at 23. Its whats you dee is what you get. So in 2 years

 

[Miller Time]

We need to stop overthinking about KK celling. If he would be as much dominant than an elite player. He would already showing it. He doesnt. He has some great tools, but he has some weakness too. i doubt he will improve those weakness largely in the NHL to become an elite guy like barkov. He will become a 35-45 points producer on his best year. Like 2nd centerman. But thats all. We don’t need to project our first centerman here. His draft selection shouldnt be third. This is not his fault. Shall we expecting better at 3. Yeah absolutely. But this is what we get

We shouldn't talk about his projected ceiling because you project his ceiling to be.... What he's already shown his ability to be... At 20....

Some takes are really not worth sharing lol

 

[Hins77]

We shouldn't talk about his projected ceiling because you project his ceiling to be.... What he's already shown his ability to be... At 20....

Some takes are really not worth sharing lol

What is dislike in his progression curve. His stats doesnt going up. His best years was hist first. Since. He didnt be close from 45/50 pts.

 

[Miller Time]

What is dislike in his progression curve. His stats doesnt going up. His best years was hist first. Since. He didnt be close from 45/50 pts.

20.
Years.
Old.


How do you like Tkachuk's progression curve?

 

[azcanuck]

It is a little absurd to think a guy that has 1 assist in his last 30 games will somehow manage to get 50 assists per season. That’s one hell of a development curve. I hope he does it, I just don’t see it. I see slow reads and delayed decision making. Inconsistency in the good plays he makes and a step behind.

Long windup with his shots too. He has a good hockey mind but his body is slow to react to everything.
How many good scoring chances did he give his wingers in the Peg series? ZERO

 

[azcanuck]

20.
Years.
Old.


How do you like Tkachuk's progression curve?

Tkachuk? Consistent 20 goal scorer and power forward on a terrible team. Top 5 in hits and shots , first ever to do so.
Not a bad player

 

[Miller Time]

Long windup with his shots too. He has a good hockey mind but his body is slow to react to everything.
How many good scoring chances did he give his wingers in the Peg series? ZERO

We watched a different series apparently.

 

[Miller Time]

Tkachuk? Consistent 20 goal scorer and power forward on a terrible team. Top 5 in hits and shots , first ever to do so.
Not a bad player

No one said he was.

Important to read the posts rather than react to a word that appears to trigger you for some reason.

 

[waitin425]

I see some in this thread want to bash KK....can't wait for game 1 now....crow is always eaten after some crazy KK bashing.

Game 1...KK scores and assist....book it

 

[azcanuck]

I see some in this thread want to bash KK....can't wait for game 1 now....crow is always eaten after some crazy KK bashing.

Game 1...KK scores and assist....book it

I like his playoff mentality. He is crashing the net and scoring his goals there.
But in the meantime you like your center to create opportunities for the wingers, and he has done virtually none of that.
I'm guessing his wingers are complaining about wanting a better centerman.

 

[Habs Icing]

People writing off KK was something. He's still young and was being mismanaged towards the end of the season. If people were watching the games and not the stat sheet they would see the upside KK has. I'm happy he is playing so well in the playoffs, his doubters are pretty quiet these days.

I promised myself I would keep quiet about KK because it's just pointless to argue about him right now. But your post just pushed my buttons.

1) Most of KK's critics (and I'm one) never wrote him off. We simply did not accept the projection that he is a top 6 center. Those two points are not exactly the same thing.
2) Many of his fans are raving about his play in the playoffs. Great. I won't disagree but has he shown skills to prove he'll be a top 6 center. I don't think so. And that's where we get into problems. His fans over-reactive to his competent play and foresee a top 6 center and his critics see a #3 C. Only time will show us what he'll become. His fans refuse to accept this and continue to post unrealistic claims for this kid. His critics are simply fed up with the pointless debate. I know I am.
3) Last year's Suzuki is this year's KK if we go with years after draft. Last year's Suzuki is head and shoulders above this year's KK. And Suzuki has shown he will be a top 6 center. And yes I know development isn't linear but it is demonstrative and KK's play hasn't shown he has the skill or the IQ to be a top 6 center. He's playing with Anderson and Byron and has received PP minutes and demonstrated zilch when it comes to setting up his line mates. I know his fans are gonna jump on his 4 goals in 10 games and I'll counter that those 4 goals in 10 games are a statistical anomaly. I can see him not scoring for the rest of the playoffs and it no longer becomes 4 in 10 but 4 in 17. In other words it's a small sample size so we can't draw any conclusions. If you look at his play, however, you see the making of a #3 and not a top 6 center.

And I think this will be my last post on KK until the 2025 season.

 

[azcanuck]

We watched a different series apparently.

show me some video of his playmaking.

 

[Miller Time]

I see some in this thread want to bash KK....can't wait for game 1 now....crow is always eaten after some crazy KK bashing.

Game 1...KK scores and assist....book it

Assist might be a stretch... Anderson/Byron have a combined 3 goals in the last 43 games