Player Discussion Jeff Gorton

[McRanger]

One bad trade. And it was for two 2nd rounders and Aleksi Saarela, a b-level prospect.

2016 was the only year he's been at the helm of the team where it might be reasonable to "buy" and he traded two 2nd rounders for a rental. We really assume he wouldn't have made major trades involving 1st rounders during years the team was was expected to make deep playoff runs?

We're talking about the Rangers AGM during that time who probably handled 99% of the day-to day of the team under Sather. Gorton had a big hand in building the Rangers up, likely more than anyone else including Sather, and has a big hand in where we are today. He took over significantly better situation than most GMs so rightly the expectations are higher. This "woe is Jeff" stuff is ridiculous.

 

[Riche16]

There's no grade yet for Gorton.

"Incomplete" doesn't begin to describe his tenure.

After this draft won't be close to assessing how he's doing.

This instant gratification world is getting to some people.

 

[kovazub94]

2016 was the only year he's been at the helm of the team where it might be reasonable to "buy" and he traded two 2nd rounders for a rental. We really assume he wouldn't have made major trades involving 1st rounders during years the team was was expected to make deep playoff runs?

We're talking about the Rangers AGM during that time who probably handled 99% of the day-to day of the team under Sather. Gorton had a big hand in building the Rangers up, likely more than anyone else including Sather, and has a big hand in where we are today. He took over significantly better situation than most GMs so rightly the expectations are higher. This "woe is Jeff" stuff is ridiculous.

At my work I do things that my boss asks of me even if I don't agree.

Even Staal trade has all the characteristics of Sather's actions from the immediate past, while being VERY different from everything else Gorton has done until now.

 

[McRanger]

At my work I do things that my boss asks of me even if I don't agree.

Even Staal trade has all the characteristics of Sather's actions from the immediate past, while being VERY different from everything else Gorton has done until now.

Gorton (along with Gordie Clark) has been given a large portion of the credit for our '12-'15 success. Logically he should also be partly to blame for the state of the current team. As GM moves like the Eric Staal trade or the Shattenkirk/Stepan contracts are, right or wrong, his moves. And others like the Marc Staal extension, completed only a few months before Sather publicly stepped down, are also likely his moves.

Or we can go the route where Gorton does not get any blame for the things he does as GM if they sound like something Sather would do. Sather gutted the team in '04, so if this rebuild fails we can just blame him for that as well. It's not a bad strategy, keeping a familiar villain as a target of our ire.

 

[haveandare]

Gorton (along with Gordie Clark) has been given a large portion of the credit for our '12-'15 success. Logically he should also be partly to blame for the state of the current team. As GM moves like the Eric Staal trade or the Shattenkirk/Stepan contracts are, right or wrong, his moves. And others like the Marc Staal extension, completed only a few months before Sather publicly stepped down, are also likely his moves.

Or we can go the route where Gorton does not get any blame for the things he does as GM if they sound like something Sather would do. Sather gutted the team in '04, so if this rebuild fails we can just blame him for that as well. It's not a bad strategy, keeping a familiar villain as a target of our ire.

Or we can accept the fact that we don’t know what is who’s doing prior to him being named GM and judge him based on what he does while in the position

 

[Off Sides]

Exactly my point, jas. Sather traded away multiple years worth.

It's not a 1st but the 2nd they traded for Smith became the #33 pick for this upcoming draft.

 

[True Blue]

It's not a 1st but the 2nd they traded for Smith became the #33 pick for this upcoming draft.

I am not somehow disputing that Gorton has also included draft picks. But utilizing Smith is a little revisionist history. During the playoffs last year, these boards were singing his praises and loved the trade.

 

[True Blue]

Or we can accept the fact that we don’t know what is who’s doing prior to him being named GM and judge him based on what he does while in the position

Exactly this. Well put. Everything else is conjecture.

 

[Miamipuck]

I think we should all be a little more intellectually honest about this stuff. All GM's make mistakes, bad picks, poor trades, things they would take back.

Even if the Staal trade was Sather's idea, Gorton's name was on the GM door. If I am told to do something I vehemently disagree with, I usually don't do it.

If Gorton was that much against the trade it doesn't happen. Gorton was the ultimate decision maker and that trade falls on him. I don't know why we have to move goalposts and make it so that trade was Sather. All the Rangers moves are on Gorton's watch when his name is in the GM's door, rightly or wrongly.

 

[McRanger]

Or we can accept the fact that we don’t know what is who’s doing prior to him being named GM and judge him based on what he does while in the position

Like the Eric Staal trade that we were discussing?

Or is that exempt for being too Sather-ish?

 

[haveandare]

Like the Eric Staal trade that we were discussing?

Or is that exempt for being too Sather-ish?

It’s a simple system.

Was Gorton the GM when the trade was made? If yes, it’s his trade to judge him on. If no, it’s not his trade to judge him on.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

Or we can accept the fact that we don’t know what is who’s doing prior to him being named GM and judge him based on what he does while in the position

Think there was a Brooks report or something around the time that said Gorton was the one who handled the Staal and Girardi extensions

 

[McRanger]

Exactly this. Well put. Everything else is conjecture.

So we were good with conjecture when we were giving Gorton credit for the successes during his time as AGM but not cool with him taking his share of the blame?

 

[McRanger]

It’s a simple system.

Was Gorton the GM when the trade was made? If yes, it’s his trade to judge him on. If no, it’s not his trade to judge him on.

Its a simple system and one that's ignored whenever inconvenient.

This is the place that still gives Neil Smith credit for somehow drafting Lundqvist after he got fired.

 

[Off Sides]

I am not somehow disputing that Gorton has also included draft picks. But utilizing Smith is a little revisionist history. During the playoffs last year, these boards were singing his praises and loved the trade.

I often find myself outside of the general board take on things.

 

[GordonGecko]

Like the Eric Staal trade that we were discussing?

Or is that exempt for being too Sather-ish?

Eric Staal was a reasonable trade by any standard going in. Who could have thought Eric would be completely ineffective on the Rangers for some inexplicable reason (*cough* AV? *cough*). As soon as he moved to the next team he was a stud again

 

[kovazub94]

Eric Staal was a reasonable trade by any standard going in. Who could have thought Eric would be completely ineffective on the Rangers for some inexplicable reason (*cough* AV? *cough*). As soon as he moved to the next team he was a stud again

It isn’t about Staal’s performance. It is about team needed to sell (Yandle) instead of buy.

 

[True Blue]

I often find myself outside of the general board take on things.

Fair enough. I hated both trades (Staal & Smith). But came around on the Smith deal, given his performance. Hated the E. Staal trade. But who knows? Could be AV's usage of him was poor. I still think that Smith is capable of better performance than he showed this year. And I believe that he will be given every opportunity to get his job back under a new coach.

 

[Jersey Girl]

Eric Staal was a reasonable trade by any standard going in. Who could have thought Eric would be completely ineffective on the Rangers for some inexplicable reason (*cough* AV? *cough*). As soon as he moved to the next team he was a stud again

Except Staal was already having a bad season in Carolina by his standards at the time of the trade - 33 points in 63 games. Was that AV's fault too? Cough cough?

Not a bad strategy though - keep a familiar victim as target of our ire.

 

[Off Sides]

Fair enough. I hated both trades (Staal & Smith). But came around on the Smith deal, given his performance. Hated the E. Staal trade. But who knows? Could be AV's usage of him was poor. I still think that Smith is capable of better performance than he showed this year. And I believe that he will be given every opportunity to get his job back under a new coach.

I just don't like rentals at all, I think it's normally a total waste of an asset although if a team is among the top contenders I understand the idea.

I actually watched Smith some when he was with Detroit over the years, so I had some preconceived notions.

Smith and Skjei did play relatively well in those playoffs, but it was relative to how poor Holden and Staal were. McD/Girardi were not exactly very good either, I tend to think that made the Smith pair look better than they actually were.

Smith I do think can play better than this year, but he is inconsistent, and not like in the sense that he has some good and bad games, he has samples of pretty decent play where it looks like he has found a "I can play 2nd pair well" but other stretches of really poor play, like "scratch me I am terrible" and he always had that.

It's part of the reason I do question Gorton's player evaluation, another is Shattenkirk, I too think he can play better than he did this season, but if they are intending for him to play top pair minutes consistently and do well with those minutes at even strength, I think their evaluation is off.

Oh, E Staal, I made light of the trade when Gorton was saying he thought it may energize Staal to move to the Rangers, I don't think Staal was bad because he needed energy, I think he was poor because he had some recent injury issues and he was not completely over them by the time of the trade or while playing for the Rangers. AV did not do him any favors, he should have left him on a 3rd line with Stalberg and Lindberg. But even before coaching took hold the Rangers already had centers and management traded for another anyway.

 

[GordonGecko]

Not a bad strategy though - keep a familiar victim as target of our ire.

It's hard not to blame him by default after how he ran this team into the ground

 

[Jersey Girl]

It's hard not to blame him by default after how he ran this team into the ground

I know, I read the AV Fired thread. Many posters here believe he's the worst coach in the history of hockey.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

At the end of the day, you have to attribute credit/blame to the GM who was in charge at the time. But that doesn't mean the AGM (or now, the team President) can't exert an influence.

My personal belief is that Gorton came over, became a voice in the room, and that prodded Slats in a better (but hardly perfect) direction during the last few years of his tenure. Similarly, I think after he moved upstairs, Slats continued to be a voice in Gorton's ear, especially during his first year as GM, and you can see that influence in the fact that Gorton went for it at the 2016 TDL.

So, while yes, at the end of the day, each gets credit/blame for the moves made while he was GM – after all, it's on you to decide whether or not to listen to those other voices – the narrative above is utterly reasonable/possible and why (along with what he did as interim GM in Boston) I'm so optimistic about Gorton taking the helm.

 

[haveandare]

Its a simple system and one that's ignored whenever inconvenient.

This is the place that still gives Neil Smith credit for somehow drafting Lundqvist after he got fired.

I'm only speaking for myself and suggesting a logical way to judge the moves.

 

[NYR713]

The time to see what Gorton can do is now. He's been able to dabble with a team that was on the down-turn, made some good and bad moves(more good than bad, I feel) and now is going to run a clean slate. I see that he notices problem areas and moves to rectify them.

On the bad...
Staal trade was Saarella and two 2nds... Staal was a dud and none of those 3 assets have seen an NHL game, although it's still early. The organization wanted to buy.
Maybe Brendan Smith was another bad move, but the fan-base was definitely behind resigning him and maybe he'll still be a legit NHL defender if he's in shape and with a more simplified defensive system.
JT Miller included in the McDonagh deal

On the good side...
Got something for nothing concerning Yandle's rights (4th rd pick once he signed contract, I believe?)
Zib + 2nd for Brassard + 7th is a total win
Stepan for #7 (Andersson) will be a win, I think.
Raanta for DeAngelo... meh but it's still a backup G for a young RHD which is an organizational need
Girardi bought out
Shattenkirk signed at what most called a discount
Decision to go total rebuild when only 3 points out of a playoff spot and a bunch of trade value available in a season
Fire AV and staff - A decision I believe was made at the same time as rebuild.

Drafting wise, he took over in 2015 after the draft so he has 2 under his belt... '16 and '17
No 1st or 2nd rd pick in 2016. If Day, Gettinger or Ronning become NHL players, it was a good draft. Signed Vesey and Gilmour.
2017 Andersson and Chytil in 1st rd... Chytil looks like total steal and would have been top 10 in 2018 draft if he was 2 weeks younger.
No 2nd rd pick but then signs Pionk who may now be a regular NHL player.

Now, outside of some leftover Cap Anchors like Staal, the slate is clean and his to create. The team is already younger, but still with veterans. With all the prospects he's acquired through the 2017 trades and three 1st rd picks as well as 2 picks in each of the 2nd and 3rd rd, he's got a foundation to work from. There is also some cap space available and a few more players that can be moved, or condensed together for an upgrade.

I need to see what he can do with all these picks, prospects and some of the veteran guys like Zucc, Namestnikov, etc. in terms of getting some young difference makers for the near future. I think there are opportunities to condense some of those different values into a young, premiere player. This off-season and '18-19 season is the big "make or break" moment for Gorton in my eyes.

Please... don't f*** it up haha. If we end up with Jessiman, McIlrath types out of the draft, Namestnikov resigned at $5M+ long term and someone like Kreider traded away for peanuts, I'll remove that sum bitch myself.