Player Discussion Jake Virtanen | Jake It Or Break It Edition

[DL44]

He is a pretty good skater.

A fantastic skater.

That's great news for Virtanen that his skating can make up for a void in defensive IQ and gives him the appearance he knows what he's doing out there.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

A fantastic skater.

That's great news for Virtanen that his skating can make up for a void in defensive IQ and gives him the appearance he knows what he's doing out there.

That is true.

 

[CanaFan]

And yet hes so good at reading the play on the backcheck defensively, getting into passing lanes, and turning the play back up the ice which takes a pretty high level of awareness/IQ to do...

So what is he.. half smart half dumb?

I’d guess it means he can follow a simple defensive scheme that his coach drills into him.

Offensive IQ is an entirely different animal.

 

[Lindgren]

I’d guess it means he can follow a simple defensive scheme that his coach drills into him.

Offensive IQ is an entirely different animal.

Do you not think that there are players with decent vision/IQ when it comes to offence but lack IQ when it comes to the defensive side of the game? I don't think it's such a simple distinction -- attacking takes IQ but defending doesn't.

It's a cliche that you can coach defence but not offence, but if it were so easy every player would be effective defensively.

 

[CanaFan]

Do you not think that there are players with decent vision/IQ when it comes to offence but lack IQ when it comes to the defensive side of the game? I don't think it's such a simple distinction -- attacking takes IQ but defending doesn't.

It's a cliche that you can coach defence but not offence, but if it were so easy every player would be effective defensively.

Defense is mainly effort and paying attention to details. Most players who aren’t “good” at it simply don’t put in the effort or are more focussed on creating offense.

Besides Jake isn’t any sort of defensive genius, his effectiveness comes mainly from having the speed to get back into plays and pretty decent positioning. He doesn’t show anything special beyond that.

And since this discussion is really about his offensive hockey IQ, why are we using his defensive game as a proxy for IQ? Let’s just use his offensive game directly. Makes more sense, no?

 

[m9]

Virtanen's defensive awareness took a big jump after his first year and his offensive awareness improved in the second half of this year. Still a work in progress, but don't confuse inexperience with 'low hockey IQ'.

 

[CanaFan]

Virtanen's defensive awareness took a big jump after his first year and his offensive awareness improved in the second half of this year. Still a work in progress, but don't confuse inexperience with 'low hockey IQ'.

I dunno man, he hasn’t shown any impressive offensive results at any level since being drafted. 21 goals (WHL), 7 goals (NHL), 9 goals (AHL), and 10 goals (NHL). Considering he has elite skating, a heavy shot, and all the size/strength a player could want, these results are extremely poor. And watching him play you see very little imagination to his offensive game. It’s extreme simplicity - skate fast, shoot or throw puck straight back to the point - is pretty good evidence of a player with a fairly low level of hockey IQ. If it was higher then we’d be seeing signs of it offensively, not arguing over how good he looks defensively at times. Defense for a winger is pretty simple and isn’t a good proxy for their hockey intelligence. For a Defenseman or a Centre it is but for a Winger it really is about skating hard (Jake’s a great skater), and covering a specific region of ice in your zone.

 

[MS]

Virtanen's defensive ability comes from his explosive skating ability which allows him to hound the puck and get on top of guys quickly on the forecheck and in the neutral zone if he's moving his feet. Or catch guys on the backcheck. This isn't a function of IQ, it's just speed and effort.

In contained defensive situations where IQ and positioning come into play he's ... less good.

 

[Lindgren]

Virtanen's defensive ability comes from his explosive skating ability which allows him to hound the puck and get on top of guys quickly on the forecheck and in the neutral zone if he's moving his feet. Or catch guys on the backcheck. This isn't a function of IQ, it's just speed and effort.

In contained defensive situations where IQ and positioning come into play he's ... less good.

I'm unconvinced by this argument, and by CanaFan's. If IQ didn't enter into defensive play, even for wingers, even for wingers who are fast, then all fast wingers would be effective defensively. And I don't buy that those who are ineffective simply aren't willing to try.

If that's tangential to the argument about Jake's offensive vision/IQ, fine, but I'm not the one who brought up his defense or said it required little in the way of IQ.

 

[CanaFan]

I'm unconvinced by this argument, and by CanaFan's. If IQ didn't enter into defensive play, even for wingers, even for wingers who are fast, then all fast wingers would be effective defensively. And I don't buy that those who are ineffective simply aren't willing to try.

If that's tangential to the argument about Jake's offensive vision/IQ, fine, but I'm not the one who brought up his defense or said it required little in the way of IQ.

My criteria for being effective defensively is effort and a focus on it. A speedy winger like Kessel isn’t because he gives a lousy effort and is focussed on cheating for offensive chances. He is clearly a higher IQ player than Jake but isn’t a good defensive player.

You can’t infer being defensively sound - and that’s all Jake is, let’s not pretend he’s Patrice Bergeron - means a player has high hockey IQ. It absolutely isn’t necessary to being good defensively.

 

[Fatass]

I'm unconvinced by this argument, and by CanaFan's. If IQ didn't enter into defensive play, even for wingers, even for wingers who are fast, then all fast wingers would be effective defensively. And I don't buy that those who are ineffective simply aren't willing to try.

If that's tangential to the argument about Jake's offensive vision/IQ, fine, but I'm not the one who brought up his defense or said it required little in the way of IQ.

I totally agree. I posted a couple weeks back about the correlation between heart rate (fitness and stress) on decision making (hockey IQ basically). Jake was very heavy (fat) and way out of proper shape. The more fatigued he got, the higher his heart rate became, and the worse his decisions were. We saw a more fit and much lighter Jake making excellent defensive reads, because he was not gassed. His offensive reads were much improved too. I do believe Jake could play more with his head up and looking around.

 

[Fatass]

My criteria for being effective defensively is effort and a focus on it. A speedy winger like Kessel isn’t because he gives a lousy effort and is focussed on cheating for offensive chances. He is clearly a higher IQ player than Jake but isn’t a good defensive player.

You can’t infer being defensively sound - and that’s all Jake is, let’s not pretend he’s Patrice Bergeron - means a player has high hockey IQ. It absolutely isn’t necessary to being good defensively.

Actually, I think playing good defensively does take processing the play. Some guys, who are fit and fast (Duchene, and Drouin come to mind) often make poor choices on defence. I think they are trying their hardest; I just don’t think they process the game as well without the puck, as they do with it.

 

[CanaFan]

Actually, I think playing good defensively does take processing the play. Some guys, who are fit and fast (Duchene, and Drouin come to mind) often make poor choices on defence. I think they are trying their hardest; I just don’t think they process the game as well without the puck, as they do with it.

Those are centres though, their defensive responsibilities are significantly more than a winger’s. Jake’s defensive duties are pretty basic and he executes then reasonably well through his skating and improved focus on it. It’s also a lot easier to be focussed on your defensive duties when it’s all that is keeping you in the NHL. Players like Kessel, Ovie, etc know they can play weak defense so long as they produce offensively.

 

[Lindgren]

Should the Canucks have higher expectations for Griffen Molino? I understand that his skating is elite, and his effort has never been questioned. Perhaps the reports that he spends a lot of time running around accomplishing nothing are off base, because that would imply some intelligence is needed to play the defensive end of the game, even for wingers.

 

[Zippgunn]

...every time I watch him play I'm reminded of my old pal Perry Anderson (nickname: "Wheels"). Fast as lightning, no offensive ability or I.Q. and tough and willing enough to be New Jersey's punch-me doll for years.

 

[CanaFan]

Should the Canucks have higher expectations for Griffen Molino? I understand that his skating is elite, and his effort has never been questioned. Perhaps the reports that he spends a lot of time running around accomplishing nothing are off base, because that would imply some intelligence is needed to play the defensive end of the game, even for wingers.

Or maybe the reverse. It’s not actually hard for a winger to play passable defense. If he can’t do it in the AHL then something is definitely wrong.

 

[Lindgren]

Or maybe the reverse. It’s not actually hard for a winger to play passable defense. If he can’t do it in the AHL then something is definitely wrong.

I'd call that "something" a lack of intelligence or processing on the defensive side of the game.

 

[CanaFan]

I'd call that "something" a lack of intelligence or processing on the defensive side of the game.

So he’s well below average then while Jake is just average but helped by being fast, strong, and focussed on it.

I will concede Jake isn’t below average defensively, but he is offensively.

That work for you?

 

[Lindgren]

So he’s well below average then while Jake is just average but helped by being fast, strong, and focussed on it.

I will concede Jake isn’t below average defensively, but he is offensively.

That work for you?

Trying to establish just what percentage of Jake's effectiveness defensively has to do with effort and physical attributes and what percentage has to do with IQ, or whatever one wants to call it, is more-or-less pointless, I think. But it seems clear to me that IQ is involved in a significant way. If you think he's got average defensive IQ and that, coupled with superior physical attributes and effort, makes him better than a simply average defender, I wouldn't argue.

 

[CanaFan]

Trying to establish just what percentage of Jake's effectiveness defensively has to do with effort and physical attributes and what percentage has to do with IQ, or whatever one wants to call it, is more-or-less pointless, I think. But it seems clear to me that IQ is involved in a significant way. If you think he's got average defensive IQ and that, coupled with superior physical attributes and effort, makes him better than a simply average defender, I wouldn't argue.

Sure, I can’t argue against that.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I'm unconvinced by this argument, and by CanaFan's. If IQ didn't enter into defensive play, even for wingers, even for wingers who are fast, then all fast wingers would be effective defensively. And I don't buy that those who are ineffective simply aren't willing to try.

If that's tangential to the argument about Jake's offensive vision/IQ, fine, but I'm not the one who brought up his defense or said it required little in the way of IQ.

Stamkos & Ovechkin are great examples.

 

[F A N]

Those are centres though, their defensive responsibilities are significantly more than a winger’s. Jake’s defensive duties are pretty basic and he executes then reasonably well through his skating and improved focus on it. It’s also a lot easier to be focussed on your defensive duties when it’s all that is keeping you in the NHL. Players like Kessel, Ovie, etc know they can play weak defense so long as they produce offensively.

Seems to me you're implying that as long as a winger can skate and focused on his defensive duties he can be a decent or at least not be a liability defensively in the NHL. I don't think that's true at all.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Seems to me you're implying that as long as a winger can skate and focused on his defensive duties he can be a decent or at least not be a liability defensively in the NHL. I don't think that's true at all.

Hard to argue your points here.

 

[CanaFan]

Seems to me you're implying that as long as a winger can skate and focused on his defensive duties he can be a decent or at least not be a liability defensively in the NHL. I don't think that's true at all.

I guess you don’t then.

 

[MS]

I'm unconvinced by this argument, and by CanaFan's. If IQ didn't enter into defensive play, even for wingers, even for wingers who are fast, then all fast wingers would be effective defensively. And I don't buy that those who are ineffective simply aren't willing to try.

If that's tangential to the argument about Jake's offensive vision/IQ, fine, but I'm not the one who brought up his defense or said it required little in the way of IQ.

Speed PLUS effort/motor.

It's very difficult to think of a fast, hard-working player who is a weak defensive player. Of course there are guys who are fast but don't move their feet without the puck on their stick.