Player Discussion Jake Virtanen | Jake It Or Break It Edition

[Cupless44]

This has become my least favorite thread.

Firstly, after 4 bloody years it is time to stop talking about Ehlers or Nylander. That draft is long gone.

Secondly, no matter that Virtanen is making progress, is the most physical forward on the team by a mile, is the best skater easily, has improved his work ethic and defensive play significantly, is becoming a better passer, really is only lacking some finish to be very close to a 2nd line power forward it is still constant negativity from those who long ago labeled him a bust.

Even though Virtanen has been one of the best Canucks in the 2nd half of the season, after he plays a good game it is cinstantly a bunch of negative comments.

I know for some posters maintaining your narrative and defending your opinion is what is most important to you but at some point some balance is required. If you cannot see significant development and improvement in Virtanen’s game that goes beyond his point totals I don’t know what you are watching.

Keep dumping on him, I look forward to your bust comments when his unique blend of high end speed and power comes together in a very effective player before he is 24. He is already the most entertaining guy to watch many nights.

 

[brokenhole]

This has become my least favorite thread.

Firstly, after 4 bloody years it is time to stop talking about Ehlers or Nylander. That draft is long gone.

Secondly, no matter that Virtanen is making progress, is the most physical forward on the team by a mile, is the best skater easily, has improved his work ethic and defensive play significantly, is becoming a better passer, really is only lacking some finish to be very close to a 2nd line power forward it is still constant negativity from those who long ago labeled him a bust.

Even though Virtanen has been one of the best Canucks in the 2nd half of the season, after he plays a good game it is cinstantly a bunch of negative comments.

I know for some posters maintaining your narrative and defending your opinion is what is most important to you but at some point some balance is required. If you cannot see significant development and improvement in Virtanen’s game that goes beyond his point totals I don’t know what you are watching.

Keep dumping on him, I look forward to your bust comments when his unique blend of high end speed and power comes together in a very effective player before he is 24. He is already the most entertaining guy to watch many nights.

Eddie Shack was entertaining too.

 

[tantalum]

In the end Virtanen has seemed to play well enough the last 30 or so games. The problem I have is that it has been in garbage time and that makes it a very hard read. As a general rule, I tend not to to put a lot of faith in player performance, good OR bad, in garbage time. And this season it's been garbage time for a very very long time. If I was to ignore it's garbage time I'd say ya he's played well but I don't see a huge corner being turned or upswing in future potential. He looks like he may be a solid bottom 6 forward. That would be a step forward to be sure but also not something to be hugely excited about.

Still there are some positives in his game that seem to be sticking. That's good to see. While he didn't pick himself in the draft he will still be forever linked to Ehlers/Nylander and unfortunately that means there will be comparisons and, I don't know, grudges personally held against him. Those feelings should be directed at scouting and management but that isn't how hockey fandom works it seems.

 

[bbud]

This has become my least favorite thread.

Firstly, after 4 bloody years it is time to stop talking about Ehlers or Nylander. That draft is long gone.

Secondly, no matter that Virtanen is making progress, is the most physical forward on the team by a mile, is the best skater easily, has improved his work ethic and defensive play significantly, is becoming a better passer, really is only lacking some finish to be very close to a 2nd line power forward it is still constant negativity from those who long ago labeled him a bust.

Even though Virtanen has been one of the best Canucks in the 2nd half of the season, after he plays a good game it is cinstantly a bunch of negative comments.

I know for some posters maintaining your narrative and defending your opinion is what is most important to you but at some point some balance is required. If you cannot see significant development and improvement in Virtanen’s game that goes beyond his point totals I don’t know what you are watching.

Keep dumping on him, I look forward to your bust comments when his unique blend of high end speed and power comes together in a very effective player before he is 24. He is already the most entertaining guy to watch many nights.

What's more important is next year continued improvement and confidence Green has him on a way better track and he's a kid what i really am interested in is his game in 3 to 4 years let him develop lets see then.

 

[DL44]

Coming along nicely.

Like a blossoming flower.

 

[PhilMick]

Coming along nicely.

Like a blossoming flower.

One of those ones that blooms once every 10 years and smells like a dead body?

(I'm sorry I couldn't resist )

 

[m9]

I continue to be impressed by his improving play in the offensive zone. Driving the net, screens, even a few decent passes along the way. I'm not as concerned about the points because he's been directly or indirectly involved in a good amount of goals lately. Looking forward to seeing him in a consistent top-9 role next season.

 

[DL44]

One of those ones that blooms once every 10 years and smells like a dead body?

(I'm sorry I couldn't resist )

Now your optimism is out of hand.
Its just silly homerism to suggest he's a generational talent.

 

[rune74]

In the end Virtanen has seemed to play well enough the last 30 or so games. The problem I have is that it has been in garbage time and that makes it a very hard read. As a general rule, I tend not to to put a lot of faith in player performance, good OR bad, in garbage time. And this season it's been garbage time for a very very long time. If I was to ignore it's garbage time I'd say ya he's played well but I don't see a huge corner being turned or upswing in future potential. He looks like he may be a solid bottom 6 forward. That would be a step forward to be sure but also not something to be hugely excited about.

Still there are some positives in his game that seem to be sticking. That's good to see. While he didn't pick himself in the draft he will still be forever linked to Ehlers/Nylander and unfortunately that means there will be comparisons and, I don't know, grudges personally held against him. Those feelings should be directed at scouting and management but that isn't how hockey fandom works it seems.

Hmm if you refer to garbage time as time the canucks are no longer in a playoff picture I get that a bit. But they aren't playing teams that are just coming in not trying to win, these games still matter. The players shouldn't be looking at these games not mattering, and as professionals I don't think they are. Players hate to lose and that's why you don't see them embracing a tank no matter the team.

 

[tantalum]

Hmm if you refer to garbage time as time the canucks are no longer in a playoff picture I get that a bit. But they aren't playing teams that are just coming in not trying to win, these games still matter. The players shouldn't be looking at these games not mattering, and as professionals I don't think they are. Players hate to lose and that's why you don't see them embracing a tank no matter the team.

I'll put it this way...you often see players and even teams play really well in garbage time. The Oilers did it for years. It doesn't mean anything is going to translate to the next year.

So yes players are professionals and they hate to use etc etc etc. They are also human and when the pressure is off (i.e. out of the race) some are better able to perform and "surprise" only to have camp roll around and not be able to duplicate the success when it matters. On the flip side you can have secure player turn the intensity down and coast and have a bad performance. All I'm saying.

 

[DL44]

I'll put it this way...you often see players and even teams play really well in garbage time. The Oilers did it for years. It doesn't mean anything is going to translate to the next year.

So yes players are professionals and they hate to use etc etc etc. They are also human and when the pressure is off (i.e. out of the race) some are better able to perform and "surprise" only to have camp roll around and not be able to duplicate the success when it matters. On the flip side you can have secure player turn the intensity down and coast and have a bad performance. All I'm saying.

I would say the better and more likely explanation is simply development. He started the season inconsistently... and his 'good game rate' has steadily improved as the season's gone along.

I wouldn't tie that to something like "pressure". Way too vague and general of a concept to try to paint here.

He's learning. He's being coached. He's gaining experience. He's beginning to chain positive performances together. He had similar very good performances earlier in the season as well... That early-ish Detroit game was still one of his best of the season.

 

[tantalum]

The problem is the exact same things were said of Granlund. Turns out that was a mirage. Borderline players very often have these runs that ultimately mean nothing. And they see to really happen during garbage time. Maybe it's not much garbage time as being the reason in and of itself but that it is during garbage times these types of players get ice. Once camp and the new season rolls around the patience of a coaching staff is suddenly limited again. So, is Virtanen getting the icetime because of his play or has it been because the team sucks and they might as well play him. If they were in a playoff race I somehow think he wouldn't be playing nearly as much and once the new season comes around they are again in a playoff race.

 

[megatron]

ANd its not exactly like Virtanen is "going on a run". The bar is low that we make a big deal out of rushes and shots on net. The guy is sub 20 points right now, lol.
A 32 year old Hansen who has been scratched multiple times has more pro-rated points. Ughhh.

 

[m9]

The problem is the exact same things were said of Granlund. Turns out that was a mirage. Borderline players very often have these runs that ultimately mean nothing. And they see to really happen during garbage time. Maybe it's not much garbage time as being the reason in and of itself but that it is during garbage times these types of players get ice. Once camp and the new season rolls around the patience of a coaching staff is suddenly limited again. So, is Virtanen getting the icetime because of his play or has it been because the team sucks and they might as well play him. If they were in a playoff race I somehow think he wouldn't be playing nearly as much and once the new season comes around they are again in a playoff race.

Markus Granlund came onto to the team at the end of the 2015-16 for "garbage time" and was absolutely terrible. One of the worst players on the team during that stretch, completely invisible. He was then okay during the regular season last year. This year he was terrible again, but has missed the majority of the "garbage time" with an injury. I get what point you are trying to make, but Granlund is a really bad example.

 

[Canucks1096]

Seriously?....Baertschi, Gaunce and Granlund were basically hurt a lot this year.....and the jury's still out on whether they're 'core' players or 'marginal' assets.....there's a good possibility all of them will be exposed to Seattle in the 2020 expansion draft.

And Stecher and Hutton?.....both replaceable d-men.....bring zero offense and continue to get abused in their own zone.....They're both 'gamers' but don't see how Green has impacted their development at all.

The guys who've improved under Green's tutelage include Virtanen, Goldobin, Demko, Boeser and Horvat...and kids like Sautner and Brisebois appear to be knocking on the door from Utica. I also have high hopes for Gaudette and Motte... Green demands accountability and hard work.....if you've got it you'll get on just fine with him.

Yes I am serious. Granlund was healthy for almost the first 50 something games. Baertschi was healthy for like the first 30 games. Gaunce was healthy from Nov to Jan. When they were healthy they showed no improvement Under Green. If those player got hurt midseason. We should just ignore what happened before that? Regardless if there core player or Marginal Asset. Green job is to make young player improve. Green didnt make those 5 players improve.

I didn't know Green was the coach for the Canucks and Utica this season. Brisebois has nothing to do with Green. Green never coached him. Demko made hugh improvement this year and it was under a different coach.

It seem like a double standard you give Green credit for Goldobin and Sautner. But I think those 2 players are similiar level to Baertschi and Hutton/Stecher and Green doesn't get blame for those players not taking the next steps?

Virtanen points pace didn't go up and making more mistakes. That is not much of an improvement to me.

Horvat and Boeser. 2 can't miss prospects. I think it's fair to say they would been successful with any coach.

I am a Canucks fans that call things the way I see it. Some Canucks fans will just think what they what to think

I am not saying Green bad with young players. But I don't see much evidences on how he is so good with young players. I will give him some credit for Goldobin however I think first few months he was in Utica really helped him and that was a different coach of course

 

[Cupless44]

The problem is the exact same things were said of Granlund. Turns out that was a mirage. Borderline players very often have these runs that ultimately mean nothing. And they see to really happen during garbage time. Maybe it's not much garbage time as being the reason in and of itself but that it is during garbage times these types of players get ice. Once camp and the new season rolls around the patience of a coaching staff is suddenly limited again. So, is Virtanen getting the icetime because of his play or has it been because the team sucks and they might as well play him. If they were in a playoff race I somehow think he wouldn't be playing nearly as much and once the new season comes around they are again in a playoff race.

The physical skills and strength of Virtanen are far beyond Granlund though.

 

[Intangibos]

This has become my least favorite thread.

Firstly, after 4 bloody years it is time to stop talking about Ehlers or Nylander. That draft is long gone.

People might stop talking about it if people don't act like it was maybe the biggest blunder since Bourdon and for a long time saying so meant you were a Benning hater. I'd like to see some Benning supporters agree that not only we should have picked Ehlers, but that the pick was an unbelievably bad mistake. We fired our GM a few months prior because of muh drafting only to have our draft guru GM pick Virtanen over 2 all stars that almost everyone here wanted.

I assume you mean they should stop it too, but given the circumstances it's not realistic. Also, to be fair, we still hear about Hodgson and Schroeder so Ehlers should certainly be fair game.

Secondly, no matter that Virtanen is making progress, is the most physical forward on the team by a mile, is the best skater easily, has improved his work ethic and defensive play significantly, is becoming a better passer,

We all think Virtanen is making progress, but he was also a fringe AHLer pretty recently so that isn't saying much. Personally I actually like Virtanen, but he still is nowhere near where he needs to be.

really is only lacking some finish to be very close to a 2nd line power forward it is still constant negativity from those who long ago labeled him a bust.

Brendan Gaunce is only lacking some finish to be an elite 3rd line shutdown player.

Even though Virtanen has been one of the best Canucks in the 2nd half of the season, after he plays a good game it is cinstantly a bunch of negative comments.

Somewhat fair but at the same time when the people defending the Virtanen pick point to a game where he played well while Ehlers is dominant for the Jets the negative comments are somewhat valid.

I know for some posters maintaining your narrative and defending your opinion is what is most important to you but at some point some balance is required. If you cannot see significant development and improvement in Virtanen’s game that goes beyond his point totals I don’t know what you are watching.

First of all for almost all posters defending your opinion is important. People don't like to be wrong. I try to remove my own biases from my opinions and support good decisions regardless of my feelings towards management (see Boeser, Pettersson, Dahlen, Goldobin, Baertschi, Stetcher, Vanek and probably some players that didn't work out that I've forgotten about), but we're not perfect. We have these opinions for a reason and quite honestly one side this board isn't exactly putting together a winning argument. Plenty of posters here can recognize the significant development and improvement in Virtanen's game but he just isn't the player we should have and I'd like to see the other side acknowledge that it was a catastrophic pick and Gillis would never have lived it down either. If you cannot see posters here that recognize the improvement by Virtanen I don't know what forums you're reading.

Keep dumping on him, I look forward to your bust comments when his unique blend of high end speed and power comes together in a very effective player before he is 24. He is already the most entertaining guy to watch many nights.

I think busts can be relative to expectations. I love Manny Malhotra, but was he a bust for a #7 pick?
Hodgson was a bonafide NHLer for years and got a 5M contract from Buffalo because of his performance for a short while and we all consider him a bust. I think Virtanen's potential is David Booth and that's a pretty good player and I wouldn't call him a bust regardless of better players getting drafted later if he reaches that potential. However if Virtanen is a low end 2RW or a 3RW I personally don't think he's in "bust" territory but it's understandable for him to be looked at that way given the context.

 

[Canucks1096]

I continue to be impressed by his improving play in the offensive zone. Driving the net, screens, even a few decent passes along the way. I'm not as concerned about the points because he's been directly or indirectly involved in a good amount of goals lately. Looking forward to seeing him in a consistent top-9 role next season.

Last 20 games Virtanen has 4 points and a -8. He is involve in a good amount of goals lately? Can you tell me at least 5 to 10 goals that Virtanen was involve in that didn't get a point?

Seem like a lot of guys more interested in watching a figure skater than a hockey player.

 

[Kryten]

Last year AHL 65gp 9g 10a 19p 48pims -11
This year NHL 73gp 9g 10a 19p 46pims -11

 

[Canucks1096]

This has become my least favorite thread.

Firstly, after 4 bloody years it is time to stop talking about Ehlers or Nylander. That draft is long gone.

Secondly, no matter that Virtanen is making progress, is the most physical forward on the team by a mile, is the best skater easily, has improved his work ethic and defensive play significantly, is becoming a better passer, really is only lacking some finish to be very close to a 2nd line power forward it is still constant negativity from those who long ago labeled him a bust.

Even though Virtanen has been one of the best Canucks in the 2nd half of the season, after he plays a good game it is cinstantly a bunch of negative comments.

I know for some posters maintaining your narrative and defending your opinion is what is most important to you but at some point some balance is required. If you cannot see significant development and improvement in Virtanen’s game that goes beyond his point totals I don’t know what you are watching.

Keep dumping on him, I look forward to your bust comments when his unique blend of high end speed and power comes together in a very effective player before he is 24. He is already the most entertaining guy to watch many nights.

If you actually google sports busts. It said failed to meet expectation. He was 6th overall pick that was suppose to be top forward. He is not so it's fair to say he is bust.

I don't know what you are watching if you don't see all those mistakes he is making out there.

Yes he is making some progress but it is not good enough. Not even close to be good enough. Everything is doing better he still not producing more. No matter how you slice and dice it Virtanen need to put go the points. Not sure you can't justify 19 points this season.

Close to becoming a 2nd line powerforward. 2nd line forward is at least about 45 to 50 points. So he is about 25 to 30 points shy of that. Not sure how that is close.

If Virtanen wasn't Canadian and a local boy. All of us will not be having this debate right now

 

[Buresflyingelbow]

If you actually google sports busts. It said failed to meet expectation. He was 6th overall pick that was suppose to be top forward. He is not so it's fair to say he is bust.

I don't know what you are watching if you don't see all those mistakes he is making out there.

Yes he is making some progress but it is not good enough. Not even close to be good enough. Everything is doing better he still not producing more. No matter how you slice and dice it Virtanen need to put go the points. Not sure you can't justify 19 points this season.

Close to becoming a 2nd line powerforward. 2nd line forward is at least about 45 to 50 points. So he is about 25 to 30 points shy of that. Not sure how that is close.

If Virtanen wasn't Canadian and a local boy. All of us will not be having this debate right now

People are just stating that the 20/21 year old is starting to look better and there is light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[m9]

Last 20 games Virtanen has 4 points and a -8. He is involve in a good amount of goals lately? Can you tell me at least 5 to 10 goals that Virtanen was involve in that didn't get a point?

Seem like a lot of guys more interested in watching a figure skater than a hockey player.

Watch the games yourself.

Or don't, I don't care.

 

[BenningHurtsMySoul]

Last year AHL 65gp 9g 10a 19p 48pims -11
This year NHL 73gp 9g 10a 19p 46pims -11

It's not great progress, but it's progress.

 

[Kryten]

It's not great progress, but it's progress.

Not very different from his rookie year to this year stats wise. Hopefully he breaks out but I personally dont see it even with 20 minutes a game. His conditioning has improved a lot though

 

[clunk]

Not a fan, and have never been a fan of this player.

He has good streaks of play, and has improved since the draft, but he's not going to be anything more than a bottom 6 player.

I felt he didn't really get a fair shake when Willie was here, but even with more icetime now, I'm not really convinced.