Jagr vs Ovechkin vs Crosby: Who is the best offensive player

[JasonRoseEh]

Both Crosby and Malkin have shown they are both much closer to their peak levels than ovechkin has been in 10 years.

Malkin this year has 74 points in 55 games which is 109 in 82. In 17-18 he had 98 points in 78 games

Crosby last season had 100 points in 79 games while finishing 4th in selke.

when was the last time ovechkin scored 90 points? Your answer? 09-10.

Yet he's led his team every single year in points but 3 of them since he entered the league. He was second on his team in points the years he wasn't first btw. As you can see, the Capitals aren't producing many 90+ point scorers and haven't really since 2011ish yet they remain one of the best teams in the league, led by Ovechkin.

For reference, Crosby has led his team in all but 5 seasons during his career, a couple of which he was 3rd on his team or worse. Injuries were a factor in a couple but even then, he's led his team at best the same amount of times Ovechkin has. The Penguins generally have a couple players in and around 100 points in recent years as well.

Just a little context for secondary assist counters out there.

 

[Varan]

In terms of overall accomplishments AND play, Ovechkin and Jagr in terms of peak are very close. I too would have given Ovechkin a huge nod if 2010 turned out different. But purely offense, I’ve always felt Jagr is the better of the 3.

Harts aside, Lindsays aside, any accolades.....just offense, Jagr just has way to many strengths IMO compared to the others.

Both Jagr and Crosby have 11 top 10 point finishes but obviously Jagr has 5 to Crosbys 2. Crosby has 12 top 10 PPG finishes with 5x leading the league, Jagr has 9 while leading the league 3x. Although Jagr finished top 3 in PPG(9) compared to Crosby(8), but Crosby has more top 3 point finishes(8) to Jagr(7). Both have 10 top 10 assists finishes(with Jagr leading the league in assists 3 times to 1), but Jagr is an 8x top 10 goal finisher compared to Crosby’s 4 but Crosby lead the league in goals 2 times despite Jagr’s stronger and higher goal totals.

Crosby is up there, but I feel what tilts it towards Jagr heavily are those extra scoring titles, more and stronger goal finishes, while being overall offensively superior when it comes to career totals.

I guess it all depends on the wording of the question as it’s too vague because so many things can be asked. Is it general? Prime? Peak? Best season?

I agree with everything you said though!

 

[GreatGonzo]

Both Crosby and Malkin have shown they are both much closer to their peak levels than ovechkin has been in 10 years.

Malkin this year has 74 points in 55 games which is 109 in 82. In 17-18 he had 98 points in 78 games

Crosby last season had 100 points in 79 games while finishing 4th in selke.

when was the last time ovechkin scored 90 points? Your answer? 09-10.

You are pointing out obvious things, why? What’s your point? Malkin and Crosby have clearly been more consistent than Ovechkin, but that doesn’t mean they are peaking, only they were able to maintain a higher level of play, but “higher” doesn’t mean Ovechkin hasn’t maintained a high level of player as well, that’s where your logic fails you. It’s either Crosby/Malkin or bust.

Ovechkin had 87 and 89 points the last two years while leading the league in goals both times with 49 and 51. He had 11 less points than Crosby in 2019 with 16 more goals. In 2018, he had 2 less points than Crosby(87 to 89) with 20 more goals. Malkin was superior to both in 2018 while being the inferior of the 3 in 2019.

don’t let all that context get in the way of your dislike for the man.

 

[slapKing]

I guess it all depends on the wording of the question as it’s too vague because so many things can be asked. Is it general? Prime? Peak? Best season?

I agree with everything you said though!

I posted on page 5 that when I mentioned who is the best offensive player, I meant just that. Over the course of their professional careers. So in general. There peaks, primes, longevity etc. are wrapped into one. The data I posted in the OP was just a reference/starting point for the discussion.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I guess it all depends on the wording of the question as it’s too vague because so many things can be asked. Is it general? Prime? Peak? Best season?

I agree with everything you said though!

For sure it’s a bit of a complicated subject. I try to simplify it as such, JUST offense, as in what they accomplished offensively, their point totals, their finishes, numbers, etc. I’ve always felt when talking about players in terms of offense, it’s not hard to stick. To purely objective material and arguments. But then it turns into, does Ovechkins goal scoring totals and dominance equate to Crosby’s better point finishes and PPG? Does Crosby’s PPG best Jagr’s scoring titles?

I agree with a lot of what you have said as well. Both deserving players, all 3 have been highly offensive talents. 3 of the best all time for sure.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

You are pointing out obvious things, why? What’s your point? Malkin and Crosby have clearly been more consistent than Ovechkin, but that doesn’t mean they are peaking, only they were able to maintain a higher level of play, but “higher” doesn’t mean Ovechkin hasn’t maintained a high level of player as well, that’s where your logic fails you. It’s either Crosby/Malkin or bust.

Ovechkin had 87 and 89 points the last two years while leading the league in goals both times with 49 and 51. He had 11 less points than Crosby in 2019 with 16 more goals. In 2018, he had 2 less points than Crosby(87 to 89) with 20 more goals. Malkin was superior to both in 2018 while being the inferior of the 3 in 2019.

don’t let all that context get in the way of your dislike for the man.

Those 87 and 89 points left him out of the top 10 in scoring. Ovechkin simply cannot reach the level of Crosby and Malkin anymore. They still are at that super elite level. Ovechkin is a great goal scorer. Yes but guy can’t even hit 30 assists anymore. He is what he is.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Those 87 and 89 points left him out of the top 10 in scoring. Ovechkin simply cannot reach the level of Crosby and Malkin anymore. They still are at that super elite level. Ovechkin is a great goal scorer. Yes but guy can’t even hit 30 assists anymore. He is what he is.

And yet another point you missed....

Crosby wasn’t as superior as you like to make him out to be within those 2 years. He was outside the top 10 because he didn’t have enough assists while still leading the league in goals. This “level” you keep referring to is simply a lot of tire pumping on your part.

Who cares if he can’t hit 30 assists, he can hit 50 goals.....when was the last time Crosby hit 50 goals? How about Malkin? That’s the same game you are playing. Also “another level.” 11 points less with 16 more goals and 2 less points with 20 more goals is just such an elite level, Ovechkin is clearly a scrub compared to the almighty Crosby.

I guess Crosby has never been on Jagr’s level of play then. The bum has only hit 120 points ONCE. Jagr did it 3 times. Crosby has only hit more than 40 goals TWICE, Jagr hit the 40 goal mark 6 times and the 50 goal mark 3 times. Wow that was Easy.....

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

OV--Malkin--Crosby hart voting in recent years

17/18: 9--7--17
18/19: 7--n/a--2
*based on history, OV was tracking for another top 10 finish this year, Malkin would have probably just missed and Crosby would have gotten zero votes.

But in recent years Malkin is the only one who has a zero vote season, Crosby is the only one who missed the top 10 in a healthy season and OV is the only one who came top 10 both seasons. But "oV cAn'T rEaCh ThEiR lEvEl"

 

[filinski77]

Both Crosby and Malkin have shown they are both much closer to their peak levels than ovechkin has been in 10 years.

Malkin this year has 74 points in 55 games which is 109 in 82. In 17-18 he had 98 points in 78 games

Crosby last season had 100 points in 79 games while finishing 4th in selke.

when was the last time ovechkin scored 90 points? Your answer? 09-10.

	Goals	Points	Goals/gp	Points/gp
Ovechkin -17/18	1st	11th	N/A	N/A
Crosby - 17/18	33rd	10th	N/A	N/A
Malkin - 17/18	4th	4th	N/A	N/A
Ovechkin -18/19	1st	15th	N/A	N/A
Crosby - 18/19	21st	5th	N/A	N/A
Malkin - 18/19	103rd	50th	85th	25th
Ovechkin -19/20	1st	18th	N/A	N/A
Crosby - 19/20	123rd	80th	36th	13th
Malkin - 19/20	35th	14th	19th	6th

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1) In reality, NONE of these 3 are remotely close to their peak levels, despite Malkins 4th place and Crosby's 5th place point finish, it's not like either were relatively close to even competing for the Ross.

2) Ovechkin has had a better season than Crosby head-to-head 2 of the last 3 seasons, so by your logic, if Crosby is closer to his peak than Ovechkin is, despite Ovechkin performing better over the last 3 years, then I guess Ovechkin's peak was just that much better than Crosbys

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

OV--Malkin--Crosby hart voting in recent years

17/18: 9--7--17
18/19: 7--n/a--2
*based on history, OV was tracking for another top 10 finish this year, Malkin would have probably just missed and Crosby would have gotten zero votes.

But in recent years Malkin is the only one who has a zero vote season, Crosby is the only one who missed the top 10 in a healthy season and OV is the only one who came top 10 both seasons. But "oV cAn'T rEaCh ThEiR lEvEl"

Crosby has been second in hart voting in 3 of the last 4 years buddy lol

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Crosby has been second in hart voting in 3 of the last 4 years buddy lol

OK congratulations, doesn't change the fact he just came 17th in a healthy season and would have gotten zero votes this year. So in a way you're correct, OV hasn't reached that level recently. Also, how's Malkin's record been recently? 1 top 20 finish in the last 7 years? Amazing!

Btw, average hart finish in the last few years (Crosby--OV)

5 years: 5.6--7.2
4 years: 5.75--8.5
3 years: 7--9.3
2 years: 9.5--8

What a huge difference, definitely on different levels there. Now consider Crosby was getting zero votes this year and OV was going to be ~10th again so Crosby pretty clearly has the 2 worst seasons between them recently. I'm not sure what this magical fantasy level you think Crosby is at but the reality is right there (I didn't include Malkin because his record is embarrassing).

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

OK congratulations, doesn't change the fact he just came 17th in a healthy season and would have gotten zero votes this year. So in a way you're correct, OV hasn't reached that level recently. Also, how's Malkin's record been recently? 1 top 20 finish in the last 7 years? Amazing!

Btw, average hart finish in the last few years (Crosby--OV)

5 years: 5.6--7.2
4 years: 5.75--8.5
3 years: 7--9.3
2 years: 9.5--8

What a huge difference, definitely on different levels there. Now consider Crosby was getting zero votes this year and OV was going to be ~10th again so Crosby pretty clearly has the 2 worst seasons between them recently. I'm not sure what this magical fantasy level you think Crosby is at but the reality is right there (I didn't include Malkin because his record is embarrassing).

15-16 Crosby 3rd in scoring 2nd in hart. Ovechkin?
16/17. Crosby 2nd in scoring 2nd in hart. Ovechkin?
17-18 both were outta the top 5 in hart
18-19. Crosby 5th in scoring 2nd in hart. Ovechkin?

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

15-16 Crosby 3rd in scoring 2nd in hart. Ovechkin?
16/17. Crosby 2nd in scoring 2nd in hart. Ovechkin?
17-18 both were outta the top 5 in hart
18-19. Crosby 5th in scoring 2nd in hart. Ovechkin?

I don't know what you're trying to say and why you're asking questions when I posted the #s right there lol. There's no difference in their average finishes, Crosby might have more high end finishes but he also has the worst (17/18 and again this year).

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I don't know what you're trying to say and why you're asking questions when I posted the #s right there lol. There's no difference in their average finishes, Crosby might have more high end finishes but he also has the worst (17/18 and again this year).

Again this year. What do you expect he’s played 41 games lol. Crosby would have had 10+ more points than ovechkin. But let me guess injuries blah blah right? As for 17/18 the year ov won the smythe Crosby had 21 in 12 against ov 27 in 24. Let’s not forget

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Again this year. What do you expect he’s played 41 games lol. Crosby would have had 10+ more points than ovechkin. But let me guess injuries blah blah right? As for 17/18 the year ov won the smythe Crosby had 21 in 12 against ov 27 in 24. Let’s not forget

I don't know why you keep mentioning pts, no one said OV is a better pt producer in recent years than Crosby. Crosby gets more pts every year but their average hart finishes are still similar. So clearly Crosby's pts aren't as big of a deal as you seem to think because OV going sub PPG is still getting elite hart finishes.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I don't know why you keep mentioning pts, no one said OV is a better pt producer in recent years than Crosby. Crosby gets more pts every year but their average hart finishes are still similar. So clearly Crosby's pts aren't as big of a deal as you seem to think because OV going sub PPG is still getting elite hart finishes.

If it’s not top 5 it’s not an elite hart finish. There finishes are no where close recently

 

[GreatGonzo]

Again this year. What do you expect he’s played 41 games lol. Crosby would have had 10+ more points than ovechkin. But let me guess injuries blah blah right? As for 17/18 the year ov won the smythe Crosby had 21 in 12 against ov 27 in 24. Let’s not forget

Let’s not forget Who won the cup and Smythe that year?.....

Does this same logic apply to 2016? Ovechkin had 12 points in 12 games with 5 goals. Crosby had 19 points in 24 with 6 goals. I guess Ovechkin deserves some credit?....your call.

If it’s not top 5 it’s not an elite hart finish. There finishes are no where close recently

Hart voting has nothing to do with the discussion regardless. Offensively, there isn’t a whole lot separating them over the last few years.

 

[Varan]

Let’s not forget Who won the cup and Smythe that year?.....

Does this same logic apply to 2016? Ovechkin had 12 points in 12 games with 5 goals. Crosby had 19 points in 24 with 6 goals. I guess Ovechkin deserves some credit?....your call.

Hart voting has nothing to do with the discussion regardless. Offensively, there isn’t a whole lot separating them over the last few years.

Ok that was a killer response damn

 

[Varan]

For sure it’s a bit of a complicated subject. I try to simplify it as such, JUST offense, as in what they accomplished offensively, their point totals, their finishes, numbers, etc. I’ve always felt when talking about players in terms of offense, it’s not hard to stick. To purely objective material and arguments. But then it turns into, does Ovechkins goal scoring totals and dominance equate to Crosby’s better point finishes and PPG? Does Crosby’s PPG best Jagr’s scoring titles?

I agree with a lot of what you have said as well. Both deserving players, all 3 have been highly offensive talents. 3 of the best all time for sure.

I guess it matters of preference when players are this close in talent and skill. Do you weigh consistency of pace more than goals? Do you like goals more than point totals? Do you like winning awards more?

Literally any answer is right and there isn't a definitive one.

 

[Varan]

I posted on page 5 that when I mentioned who is the best offensive player, I meant just that. Over the course of their professional careers. So in general. There peaks, primes, longevity etc. are wrapped into one. The data I posted in the OP was just a reference/starting point for the discussion.

ahh thanks!

 

[daver]

I posted on page 5 that when I mentioned who is the best offensive player, I meant just that. Over the course of their professional careers. So in general. There peaks, primes, longevity etc. are wrapped into one. The data I posted in the OP was just a reference/starting point for the discussion.

Peak/Peak Season
Jagr
Crosby/OV

Jagr's healthy peak seasons put him ahead of Crosby's partial peak seasons despite similar levels of per game production. I t hink OV's 07/08 is on par with Jagr's 98/99 season despite less overall offensive dominance but Jagr has more high end seasons (#1/#2 offensive player) than OV.

Prime

Crosby/Jagr
OV

Crosby has more seasons as a Top 3 - 5 scorer than Jagr does which levels things off. OV morphed into a triggerman moreso than an all around offensive force halfway into his career.

Longevity

Crosby
Jagr/OV

Crosby's longevity of being a Top 1/2 player in the world is surpassed only Howe and Wayne. It is amazing that he is above two players who have amazing longevity on their own.

Playoffs

Crosby
Jagr/OV

This should be the most obvious ranking. Crosby has the most high end Cup runs, other high end playoff runs, and high end playoff series.

 

[daver]

Crosby scored 149 points, 71 goals over 93 games from November 2010 to December 2011

NHL.com Stats

Ovechkin scored 145 points, 71 goals over 93 games from January 2009 to February 2010

NHL.com Stats

Adding to this:

Here are the team Goals For and point totals of their teammates during these stretches:

Pens (296 GF):

Crosby - 149 points, +34
Malkin - 86 points, - 14
Letang - 52 points, + 19
Dupuis - 46 points, +19

Caps (371 GF):

OV - 145 points, +38
Backstrom - 119 points, +43
Semin - 105 points, +27
Green - 103 points, +37

 

[Acallabeth]

I understand that discussing this stuff with you daver is like talking to a tree, but still:

Prime
Crosby/Jagr
OV
Crosby has more seasons as a Top 3 - 5 scorer than Jagr does which levels things off. OV morphed into a triggerman moreso than an all around offensive force halfway into his career.

Jagr has 5 Art Rosses and one 149-point 2nd place behind Lemieux. I think this prime is kinda more impressive than Crosby coming 3rd in scoring race with ~85 points several times.

Playoffs

Crosby
Jagr/OV

This should be the most obvious ranking. Crosby has the most high end Cup runs, other high end playoff runs, and high end playoff series.

Crosby also has the most series when he was completely shut down. Like against the Caps in 2016, when he got 2 secondary assists in 7 games and was still awarded Conn Smythe lol.

 

[tacogeoff]

15-16 Crosby 3rd in scoring 2nd in hart. Ovechkin?
16/17. Crosby 2nd in scoring 2nd in hart. Ovechkin?
17-18 both were outta the top 5 in hart
18-19. Crosby 5th in scoring 2nd in hart. Ovechkin?

if you dont win the Hart does anyone really care about voting finishes? Just saying.

 

[Artorius Horus T]

Jagr. A no brainer.