Jagr vs Ovechkin vs Crosby: Who is the best offensive player

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

if you dont win the Hart does anyone really care about voting finishes? Just saying.

Yes they do. Those that study the game.

 

[daver]

if you dont win the Hart does anyone really care about voting finishes? Just saying.

When Rocket trophies are thrown around with no context as to the overall offensive value of a season then Hart voting can help to put some value on seasons.

Jagr won only one Hart despite his five Art Ross wins. Context is needed.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

OV--Malkin--Crosby hart voting in recent years

17/18: 9--7--17
18/19: 7--n/a--2
*based on history, OV was tracking for another top 10 finish this year, Malkin would have probably just missed and Crosby would have gotten zero votes.

But in recent years Malkin is the only one who has a zero vote season, Crosby is the only one who missed the top 10 in a healthy season and OV is the only one who came top 10 both seasons. But "oV cAn'T rEaCh ThEiR lEvEl"

And almost every media member laments the 7th place Hart from 17/18 from Ovechkin, he absolutely should have been a finalist that year and at the very least, top 5. He dragged a Capitals team dead in the water across the finish line and led them to the Cup. The Capitals were a disaster in 17/18 yet still won the division because of #8.

Like go back and listen to guys like Greg Wyshinski, the Sportnet group etc, in retrospect Ovechkin's 7th place finish for the Hart that year is insulting.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

When Rocket trophies are thrown around with no context as to the overall offensive value of a season then Hart voting can help to put some value on seasons.

Jagr won only one Hart despite his five Art Ross wins. Context is needed.

One is an actual trophy you win and the other is voted on by randoms across the league and media. No one remotely cares or mentions who was where in the MVP voting, only who won and MAYBE who was runner up if it was close.

 

[wetcoast]

Well his PPG was 1.40 through the 13/14 season for his career, it has dropped to 1.28 (I was incorrect about 1.26). If you think about it, him playing an extra 112 games (amount he missed from 11-13) definitely has him closer to 1.2 than 1.3 (when you also take into account him aging, going through 2 Cup runs, and drop in production over these past 5-6 years). He would be 10th-all time in PPG and just a hair above Malkin, maybe even lower.

The talk about his production and his shiny PPG that is always used as a trump card is most likely gone. Because his lead over 2nd place is not enough to make it into an argument for Crosby, and 10th all-time in PPG isn't as good of an argument as 6th. Basically, his calling card of pace/production, one of his main arguments, is gone.

This seems highly doubtful as he would still have a significant lead over Malkin and Ovechkin in this regard.

furthermore even if his PPG goes down a couple of points had he had full or near full health this would be offset by 2 more Harts and Art Ross trophies right?

He most certainly would have won both trophies in 12-13 had he played in only a hand full more games.

10-11 is quite likely as well.

14-15 Hart voting probably wouldn't be different but he was only 3 points away from an Art Ross with 5 less games played.

So in a nutshell even if his PPG went down 1,2,3 heck even 4 points that would be more than offset by the other things most likely achieved.

Let's also look at 11-12 when Crosby has his highest PPG in a 22 game sample with a 22-8-29 line.

Let's say he plays just 75 games that season and only has a 1.20 PPG average the rest of the way (which is below his PPG average then but I throw it out there just to show guys like MJ how ridiculous this argument is against Crosby).

That would mean 53 points in the other 53 games so he would still end up with 100 points, 9 behind Malkin and 3 more than Stamkos.

But once again if he plays in a couple of more games (which is what this post is about that I'm responding to) it's most certain that he wins another Art Ross trophy as well.

Basically the argument that somehow crosby would be viewed in a lesser light had he played more and his PPG drops a couple of % points is a pretty weak one.

 

[wetcoast]

And almost every media member laments the 7th place Hart from 17/18 from Ovechkin, he absolutely should have been a finalist that year and at the very least, top 5. He dragged a Capitals team dead in the water across the finish line and led them to the Cup. The Capitals were a disaster in 17/18 yet still won the division because of #8.

Like go back and listen to guys like Greg Wyshinski, the Sportnet group etc, in retrospect Ovechkin's 7th place finish for the Hart that year is insulting.

This narrative isn't supported by the actual stats either but it's not relevant to this thread as the thread is about best offensive player, everything in offense included as per the OP, which he has restated several times.

Subjective Hart voting then some revisionism of that vote afterwards relates to the OP how exactly?

 

[daver]

Subjective Hart voting then some revisionism of that vote afterwards relates to the OP how exactly?

It tends to put some context on the subjective view by some that "goals are everything".

 

[nowhereman]

And almost every media member laments the 7th place Hart from 17/18 from Ovechkin, he absolutely should have been a finalist that year and at the very least, top 5. He dragged a Capitals team dead in the water across the finish line and led them to the Cup. The Capitals were a disaster in 17/18 yet still won the division because of #8.

Like go back and listen to guys like Greg Wyshinski, the Sportnet group etc, in retrospect Ovechkin's 7th place finish for the Hart that year is insulting.

This is trending into revisionist history. Ovechkin finished 9th and, no, he did not deserve to be top 5, much less the top 3. He didn't even finish top 10 in scoring that year. IMO, it's a bit ridiculous to say that Ovechkin "dragged" his stacked roster, who had just won the President's Trophy the previous two seasons, "across the finish line" all the way to first place in the Western Conference. And if "almost every media member" lamented the decision (which wasn't the case), why didn't they vote for him in the first place?

In reality, OV finished about where he should have in that Hart race. If anyone was short-changed on a finalist's spot it was McDavid, with Giroux not far behind.

 

[Midnight Judges]

This is trending into revisionist history. Ovechkin finished 9th and, no, he did not deserve to be top 5, much less the top 3. He didn't even finish top 10 in scoring that year. IMO, it's a bit ridiculous to say that Ovechkin "dragged" his stacked roster, who had just won the President's Trophy the previous two seasons, "across the finish line" all the way to first place in the Western Conference. And if "almost every media member" lamented the decision (which wasn't the case), why didn't they vote for him in the first place?

In reality, OV finished about where he should have in that Hart race. If anyone was short-changed on a Hart nominee it was McDavid, with Giroux not far behind.

Revisionist history is you calling the Capitals 2018 roster stacked. Here's 17 NHL.com panelists predictions for the 17-18 season. Zero of them even have the Capitals winning the division. Most have them 3rd place or wild card.

Stanley Cup predictions for 2017-18

The window was supposed to be closed after they lost Justin Williams, Karl Alzner, Marcus Johansson, Nate Schmidt, and Kevin Shattenkirk.

Perhaps you are mixing them up with the 2016 or 2017 teams.

Regardless, you're also just plain wrong about Ovechkin. Ovie's been underrated recently a good bit. He's the greatest and most consistent goal scorer of all time. You can pencil in his 50 before the season starts. You can't do that for any other player. The Capitals have had elongated periods of playing like crap over the past 3 seasons, except for Ovechkin - who has been consistently excellent.

 

[nowhereman]

Revisionist history is you calling the Capitals 2018 roster stacked. Here's 17 NHL.com panelists predictions for the 17-18 season. Zero of them even have the Capitals winning the division. Most have them 3rd place or wild card.

Stanley Cup predictions for 2017-18

The window was supposed to be closed after they lost Justin Williams, Karl Alzner, Marcus Johansson, Nate Schmidt, and Kevin Shattenkirk.

Perhaps you are mixing them up with the 2016 or 2017 teams.

Regardless, you're also just plain wrong about Ovechkin. Ovie's been underrated recently a good bit. He's the greatest and most consistent goal scorer of all time. You can pencil in his 50 before the season starts. You can't do that for any other player. The Capitals have had elongated periods of playing like crap over the past 3 seasons, except for Ovechkin - who has been consistently excellent.

They won the Stanley Cup that season, coming off back-to-back President Trophies, and you're going to argue with me that they weren't stacked or, at the very least, an exceptionally talented team? But, yeah, thanks for posting those Stanley Cup predictions, lmfao. Apparently, the Oilers were going to be battling the Hawks for the Western Conference title, even though both teams ended up being amongst the worst in the league. Am I supposed to accept these pointless predictions as an indication that the Capitals were a middling roster that was being "dragged" into first place by their 11th place scorer?

And I'm not sure what your little rant at the end has to do with anything? What does OV being the greatest, most consistent goalscorer of all time have to do with him not deserving a top 5 Hart finish in 2017-2018. I'm not "wrong about Ovechkin", because I never even made any sweeping judgements about the guy or tried to discredit his 3 years of "consistent excellence". I just said he didn't deserve to be a Hart finalist that season and I imagine I'm not alone in this thinking. You're arguing with a straw man.

You live in your own little world, don't you, Midnight Judges?

 

[Midnight Judges]

They won the Stanley Cup that season, coming off back-to-back President Trophies, and you're going to argue with me that they weren't stacked or, at the very least, an exceptionally talented team? But, yeah, thanks for posting those Stanley Cup predictions, lmfao. Apparently, the Oilers were going to be battling the Hawks for the Western Conference title, even though both teams ended up being amongst the worst in the league. Am I supposed to accept these pointless predictions as an indication that the Capitals were a middling roster that was being "dragged" into first place by their 11th place scorer?

And I'm not sure what your little rant at the end has to do with anything? What does OV being the greatest, most consistent goalscorer of all time have to do with him not deserving a top 5 Hart finish in 2017-2018. I'm not "wrong about Ovechkin", because I never even made any sweeping judgements about the guy or tried to discredit his 3 years of "consistent excellence". I just said he didn't deserve to be a Hart finalist that season and I imagine I'm not alone in this thinking. You're arguing with a straw man.

You live in your own little world, don't you, Midnight Judges?

I didn't think I was going to have to spell out that stacked teams don't get picked to be 3rd or wild cards, with 0 out of 17 panelists putting them in first.

You were wrong. Be a man and admit it.

 

[nowhereman]

I didn't think I was going to have to spell out that stacked teams don't get picked to be 3rd or wild cards, with 0 out of 17 panelists putting them in first.

You were wrong. Be a man and admit it.

So because 17 NHL panelists were horribly wrong in their ridiculously off-base pre-season predictions, many of which actually look laughable in hindsight, I need to admit I was "wrong"? Sure thing, pal...

It's hilarious that you think some random pre-season poll proves your point. Since 2016-17, no team has more points than the Washington Capitals. The year they won the Cup, they had an all-time great winger, multiple first line-caliber centers, a Norris-caliber defenseman and a Vezina-winning goaltender. They were an elite team, no matter how much you'd like to rewrite history to prop up OV and make it look like he dragged a bunch of sadsacks to victory. But you're going to rest your case on some pre-season poll? Do I really need to spell out to you why that line of thinking is so ridiculous?

 

[Gurglesons]

And almost every media member laments the 7th place Hart from 17/18 from Ovechkin, he absolutely should have been a finalist that year and at the very least, top 5. He dragged a Capitals team dead in the water across the finish line and led them to the Cup. The Capitals were a disaster in 17/18 yet still won the division because of #8.

Like go back and listen to guys like Greg Wyshinski, the Sportnet group etc, in retrospect Ovechkin's 7th place finish for the Hart that year is insulting.

Not sure how the Caps were “dragged to a cup” by Ovechkin. If anything Kuznetsov did that and Ovechkin played shotgun.

And it is a little hard for me to buy that narrative. I think a good portion of the media stated if the Caps beat the Pens they’d win the cup. And luckily for the Caps the Pens back to back proved to be me too much physically on them with literally their entire 2nd line in Hags - Malkin - Kessel entering the 2nd round injured.

 

[Varan]

Not sure how the Caps were “dragged to a cup” by Ovechkin. If anything Kuznetsov did that and Ovechkin played shotgun.

And it is a little hard for me to buy that narrative. I think a good portion of the media stated if the Caps beat the Pens they’d win the cup. And luckily for the Caps the Pens back to back proved to be me too much physically on them with literally their entire 2nd line in Hags - Malkin - Kessel entering the 2nd round injured.

Are you seriously using that excuse? Explain what happened to them the following year when they got the extra rest from their "early" playoff exit

 

[Gurglesons]

Are you seriously using that excuse? Explain what happened to them the following year when they got the extra rest from their "early" playoff exit

No excuse. Caps won that series.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Why are you guys discussing Hart voting or the Hart Trophy at all? Has ZERO to do with the thread.

When Rocket trophies are thrown around with no context as to the overall offensive value of a season then Hart voting can help to put some value on seasons.

Jagr won only one Hart despite his five Art Ross wins. Context is needed.

He lost to Domink Hasek and Chris Pronger, Besides Harts have nothing to do with offensive abilities. His 5 scoring titles say more of that. Everything he did statistically was dominant within that time span.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Not sure how the Caps were “dragged to a cup” by Ovechkin. If anything Kuznetsov did that and Ovechkin played shotgun.

And it is a little hard for me to buy that narrative. I think a good portion of the media stated if the Caps beat the Pens they’d win the cup. And luckily for the Caps the Pens back to back proved to be me too much physically on them with literally their entire 2nd line in Hags - Malkin - Kessel entering the 2nd round injured.

The Capitals were a team that lost multiple players the year before, lost their starting goaltender during the season and had no other player in the top 25 in scoring until the final games of the regular season. Ovechkin drags them to the division win.

Down 2-0 to the Colombus, again Ovechkin guarantees victory and delivers, dragging them out of a round they were dead in the water in. Also, not many had the Capitals favoured over the Bolts in the ECF let alone beating Vegas.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

This is trending into revisionist history. Ovechkin finished 9th and, no, he did not deserve to be top 5, much less the top 3. He didn't even finish top 10 in scoring that year. IMO, it's a bit ridiculous to say that Ovechkin "dragged" his stacked roster, who had just won the President's Trophy the previous two seasons, "across the finish line" all the way to first place in the Western Conference. And if "almost every media member" lamented the decision (which wasn't the case), why didn't they vote for him in the first place?

In reality, OV finished about where he should have in that Hart race. If anyone was short-changed on a finalist's spot it was McDavid, with Giroux not far behind.

6 points seperated Ovechkin and Hall and the Capitals did not remotely have a stacked roster in 17/18. The year after flaming out WITH a stacked roster they lost significant players to free agency and how are you calling a roster stacked when your starting goaltender suddenly loses their confidence?

Ovechkin led them to winning their division as well and won the Rocket by 5 goals, finishing 9th was laughable in the MVP discussion that year.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

They won the Stanley Cup that season, coming off back-to-back President Trophies, and you're going to argue with me that they weren't stacked or, at the very least, an exceptionally talented team? But, yeah, thanks for posting those Stanley Cup predictions, lmfao. Apparently, the Oilers were going to be battling the Hawks for the Western Conference title, even though both teams ended up being amongst the worst in the league. Am I supposed to accept these pointless predictions as an indication that the Capitals were a middling roster that was being "dragged" into first place by their 11th place scorer?

And I'm not sure what your little rant at the end has to do with anything? What does OV being the greatest, most consistent goalscorer of all time have to do with him not deserving a top 5 Hart finish in 2017-2018. I'm not "wrong about Ovechkin", because I never even made any sweeping judgements about the guy or tried to discredit his 3 years of "consistent excellence". I just said he didn't deserve to be a Hart finalist that season and I imagine I'm not alone in this thinking. You're arguing with a straw man.

You live in your own little world, don't you, Midnight Judges?

We digress and this will be the last post on this but just where do you think Ovechkin's pre season MEME of "We're not gonna be suck this year" came from? Media members grilling them on the vacuum players leaving left and how they're significantly worse. 17/18 wasn't considered an elite team by anyone and they were favored to make a Cup run by less. Hell most had them losing to Colombus in the 1st.

 

[bobholly39]

And almost every media member laments the 7th place Hart from 17/18 from Ovechkin, he absolutely should have been a finalist that year and at the very least, top 5. He dragged a Capitals team dead in the water across the finish line and led them to the Cup. The Capitals were a disaster in 17/18 yet still won the division because of #8.

Like go back and listen to guys like Greg Wyshinski, the Sportnet group etc, in retrospect Ovechkin's 7th place finish for the Hart that year is insulting.

Ovechkin finished 9th in 2017-2018 for the Hart, and 7th in 2018-2019. Not sure if you got your rank confused, or your season wrong. Also - i think your outcry is a bit misplaced honestly. 2017-2018 was simply one of those weird seasons with so many strong candidates for the harts. Looking at fellow Russian Malkin - he seemed like a strong favorite to win the hart very late in the season, and barely registered in the voting at the end. Ovechkin had a decent year in 2018 - but many other players had great years too, and i think his hart placement is fine as is. Maybe in a season with weaker top end competition, instead of 9th he finishes 5th or so - but that's true of voting in every year, with fluctuations.

To be honest coming back to 2017-2018, the player I felt might have been most deserving of the hart was Kucherov, and he barely finished 6th. Lots of competition.

Revisionist history is you calling the Capitals 2018 roster stacked. Here's 17 NHL.com panelists predictions for the 17-18 season. Zero of them even have the Capitals winning the division. Most have them 3rd place or wild card.

Stanley Cup predictions for 2017-18

The window was supposed to be closed after they lost Justin Williams, Karl Alzner, Marcus Johansson, Nate Schmidt, and Kevin Shattenkirk.

Perhaps you are mixing them up with the 2016 or 2017 teams.

Regardless, you're also just plain wrong about Ovechkin. Ovie's been underrated recently a good bit. He's the greatest and most consistent goal scorer of all time. You can pencil in his 50 before the season starts. You can't do that for any other player. The Capitals have had elongated periods of playing like crap over the past 3 seasons, except for Ovechkin - who has been consistently excellent.

The Caps are big favorites to win the cup in 2016 - and the lose to Pens in round 2, who go win the cup.
2017 - even bigger favorites, it's time for revenge...and they choke again, and Pens win again. Ovi never past round 2. Washington either.

All that negativity going into the following season - who do you expect the experts to pick to win division, the back to back cup champs, or the team that seems destined to never make it past round 2? That doesn't really say anything at all about how stacked or not the team was.

Caps have had an excellent roster for many years in a row now - and 2017-2018 was no different. Weird to get caught up on this

 

[daver]

Caps have had an excellent roster for many years in a row now - and 2017-2018 was no different. Weird to get caught up on this

That's because not everyone feels this way



about OV's claim to fame.

 

[daver]

Hart voting is overwhelmingly favoured towards point totals, not goal totals or assist totals.

The Top 3 point getters receive six times as many Hart wins/nominations than the Top 3 goalscorers, who are marginal better than the Top 3 players in assists.

OV's Rocket wins are appropriately valued in his Hart voting which many times have been viewed less valuable than Crosby's Top 3 -5 point finishes.

 

[Midnight Judges]

All that negativity going into the following season - who do you expect the experts to pick to win division, the back to back cup champs, or the team that seems destined to never make it past round 2? That doesn't really say anything at all about how stacked or not the team was.

In service to Crosby, you are willing to claim that a "stacked" team would be picked for 3rd place in their division or a wild card spot by the vast majority, with 0 out of 17 panelists putting them in first. Sure, they had a decent roster. But calling them stacked is just plain false.

Your post amounts to nonsensical history revision. I really don't know what lies you wouldn't embrace in service to Crosby. Claiming he's good at defense when all available objective data says Crosby is garbage defensively has been fun.

 

[daver]

Not sure how the Caps were “dragged to a cup” by Ovechkin. If anything Kuznetsov did that and Ovechkin played shotgun.

So if 27 points, 5 points behind your own linemate, with three other teammates scoring 20 points plus is "dragging a team to a Cup" I wonder how one defines Crosby's 31 points, five points behind a teammate, with no other Pen even close to 20 points (Geurin 15 points)?

 

[bobholly39]

In service to Crosby, you are willing to claim that a "stacked" team would be picked for 3rd place in their division or a wild card spot by the vast majority, with 0 out of 17 panelists putting them in first. Sure, they had a decent roster. But calling them stacked is just plain false.

Your post amounts to nonsensical history revision. I really don't know what lies you wouldn't embrace in service to Crosby. Claiming he's good at defense when all available objective data says Crosby is garbage defensively has been fun.

My post has nothing to do with Crosby - and I've certainly not posted anything in regards to his defense. What are you talking about?

You're being overly sensitive to the word "stacked". Washington was a stacked team in 2016, in 2017, in 2018, in 2019, and again in 2020.

Tampa is stacked and disappointed in playoffs last year.
If they again fall flat in round 1 this year - i'm certain experts will likely be more harsh with them in pre-season predictions for the following year. Doesn't mean their roster wouldn't still be stacked. Which is what happened with Washington.