Its time for Daryl Sutter to be fired

[super6646]

I get it, it's heresy in this fandom but I've about had it. I held back after the playoffs last season because he earned his rope in the regular season, but f*** this shit.

The bitchiness about Markstrom, the inability to play the prospects; I've had my complaints, but they all go back to one individual. Now I understand there has been a lot of turnover in this roster and it's not easy, but frankly, the excuses are hollow IMO. We're talking almost 3 months to get a coherent roster together.

Now I get it, someone is going to come here and say "well, his system is working at least... the team just isn't finishing and Markstrom has sucked". Well, I'll say this. When you give Trevor Lewis a regular shift, when you give Lucic a regular shift. When you play your 10.5m dollar forward 16 minutes a night, when you clearly play favourites with players who are not contributing to winning, it is kind of self-inflicted. You give Lucic games in the top 6, you don't give your skill guys time to mesh... it's hard to find a rhythm. The rush game has disappeared, and I'm sorry but it absolutely should not be a personnel issue because we've seen this team before do fine. Whatever Sutter is preaching systematically is failing, this team cannot generate speed in the neutral zone and is dumping WAYYYYYY too much. Saw the exact same thing under Ward and Peters in his second season, and idk if the players are not listening or whatever, but my guess is having Lewis continually in the top 9 is problematic. Tofolli is too f***ing slow, and even Huberdeau deserves criticism because ya the guy isn't moving enough.

As for Markstrom, well he has 16/20 starts and the vast majority of games has been under 900. Not going to win games with that, and there is no accountability. Just like in the playoffs Sutter "sticks with his guy" despite how horrifically illogical it is, same sort of idea here. We have one of the best tendies in the AHL in Wolf, you think he sees any playing time in the next year or so? Nah.

Meanwhile, our prospects that "sucked in training camp" (more like sabotaged by Sutter by not getting a chance with our NHL pool) are ripping up the AHL. Now again, someone will point out that AHL production does not necessarily lead to a player being a good NHLer. And that is true, but I would also point that that early 20s AHLers who are over a PPG tend to translate pretty well to the NHL. And if you never give them a shot, you'll never know.

I could get into the fact that Sutter has all but refused to match lines (how many times have we seen Lucic out against top lines), or that he's horrible underutilized Weegar or his stupid comments in the media and making every attempt to f*** the confidence of players, but frankly the record speaks for itself. This is a win-now roster with a -6GD and is 1 game above 500. Our team's 10.5m dollar investment is outside the top 200 in scoring rn too, so to say disappointing is a vast understatement.

Frankly, this is probably there with Geoff Ward with the worst coaching I've seen this team endure since coming back to hockey in 2015. I get the possession metrics are there, but frankly, hockey is more than just putting pucks to the net. Honestly, take out the past reputation, and tell me what has Sutter done to actively try to mediate the situation. I'm genuinely curious. Right now, I'm seeing a stubborn coach putting out an unwatchable product. I admit I thought he really proved me wrong last year, but its starting to feel like this team got carried by an insane year by our top line more than anything Sutter contributed tbh.

Edit: thread title updated. Long overdue

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[I Hate Blake Coleman]

Markstrom has been overrated since he was a prospect. Wasn't a fan of the signing. But he's better than what was before him.

 

[Iggys Dome]

Markstrom is the main problem with this team right now. Dude is rocking a cool .889 SV%, if he had a .910 we'd probably have at least two more wins. We've had 4 one goal game losses since October 29th which Markstrom has started, his highest save % in those games? .885.

Flames have had the highest level of difficulty in terms of strength of schedule to start the season, good news is we have the easiest one going forward:

Yes, Sutter could tighten the leash on our 4th line and restric their minutes. Yes he could give Weegar time on the powerplay to give us a RHS option on our second unit, but as I said in the game thread: growing pains were to be expected. You can tell me I'm a Sutter apologist and I'm smoking that copium, I'm more than confident in Sutter to turn it around. It's on the players too, by the way, to get their f***ing shit together and string some good play.

 

[Boomstick]

The whole team isn't playing up to expectations. I'm a Sutter fan, but that's his job. His job is to ice the best possible roster and teach them how to play.
Mangiapane on pace for what 12 goals? That's terrible.
I'm done with the Lucic, Lewis, Rooney, Ritchie players. Every season we have 3 or 4 of the same player, guys who can't do much granted they're bottom 6, but they're still out there getting minutes. At least contribute something once in awhile. There's been so many different guys in our bottom 6 signing 1 year deals that I can't even remember half of them and they've all been the exact same lousy player that skates around and pretty much does nothing else.
Markstrom I really don't have much to say about except that I'm disappointed in his performance.
Huberdeau disappointing, Weegar disappointing, Mangiapane disappointing, Dube disappointing.
Kadri was great his first 10 games, mediocre since.
Nothing is working, nothing is gelling and that falls on Sutter. He has to get the team either believing in his system or at least to get a jump in their step. Against the Penguins when we had offensive pressure we kept the puck in their end for minutes at a time and that's how they generated all of their scoring chances and got their loan goal. We're very tough to get the puck off of our sticks when there is effort. Unfortunately that effort isn't in play very often.
I'm just a fan, but you can tell what kind of a game it's going to be after the first cycle of all 4 lines. In Pittsburgh the 1st period was awful, looked like we were skating in mud. Once we start out a game like that it's a guaranteed loss. And one thing that's always bothered me with this team through years of watching is when we have an early lead just keep playing that way, but nope, we sit back and let the momentum shift and watch the other team get back into it. When we win we're not winning 4-1 or anywhere near dominance. Our goal differential is terrible.
It's all just been frustrating. I realize we've had a very tough bunch of opponents right from the start, but coming out of the games with 4 wins in the first 5 games against Colorado, Edmonton, Carolina were quality teams that we beat. Then we lay eggs against Buffalo, Seattle and blow leads against NYI etc. Frustration level is off the charts.
I got home yesterday after work and the 3rd period was starting. Turned it on, but paid no attention. It was just background noise. I knew they weren't going to come back when down 2-0. No heart, no desire, no determination.
I don't know if it's Treliving's call to bring up AHL players, but we need to inject this team with some hungry high energy kids and let them wreak havoc. Don't bury them with 4 minutes a game, just give them an opportunity instead of watching Rooney, Ritchie, Lucic and Lewis skate around and do pretty much nothing.
So I am in agreement that Sutter needs to work with his talent and stop giving prime minutes to players who have no business being out there.
And holy hell Markstrom, make some saves please. You look fine on actual scoring chances but the stuff he's letting in has been very low percentage shots. You can't just keep giving up easy outside goals and expect us to compete, it deflates the players. I may say something that some fans may not like, but we should have kept Monahan and our 1st. He's got 5 goals, 9 assists in 21 games. That's more goals than the majority of our roster. Could have kept Monahan, and not signed Ritchie and Rooney and brought up a kid for their spot in the lineup and do whatever else was necessary to make the money work.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

Look say what you want about overreacting and hyperbole but Trevor Lewis on the top line?

Really?

 

[Kahvi]

Look say what you want about overreacting and hyperbole but Trevor Lewis on the top line?

Really?

That's my biggest problem with Sutter's coaching right now. And the fact that Pelletier, Zary, Phillips are not even given a chance. Who knows if they are good or dog shit or something between, but ffs just give them a chance in the top-6. This should happen as soon as the next home games, I dont think the travel from Wranglers is too much for a 3 day call-up and a game or two.

 

[23Monahan]

That's my biggest problem with Sutter's coaching right now. And the fact that Pelletier, Zary, Phillips are not even given a chance. Who knows if they are good or dog shit or something between, but ffs just give them a chance in the top-6. This should happen as soon as the next home games, I dont think the travel from Wranglers is too much for a 3 day call-up and a game or two.

Sutter wasn't even willing to give them a top 6 look in the preseason, played them with bottom six guys or with eachother against tougher squads and then said they weren't good enough. There is no way he is going to actually try them in the top 6 in a real game. Sutter is not the coach you bring in if you want to develop prospects, he would much rather play Trevor Lewis in the top 6.

 

[Body Checker]

It's a very dangerous time for the organization. Gave Sutter an extension but it looks like the players are already tuning him out. Alot riding on him for Treliving. The unwillingness to allow and accept mistakes by young players really sets you on a path to nowhere in today's NHL. You need the speed, skill, enthusiasm, ELCs and ability to progress throughout a season from young players. Now yes you don't overload with youth. However Lucic, Lewis and Ritchie are only regressing. Plus the Rooney signing for $1.3 million???? That's just Treliving getting involved in the UFA market and playing fantasy manager. My god there's players like that on waivers every fall. Like absolutely no reason taking up valuable cap space like that. Also I'm over Sutter's pressers. He's making the team about himself now. The Huberdeau bathroom comment was uncalled for and I do agree pissed off the group.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

He is an ageist for sure. Definitely doesn’t believe in a meritocracy

Disappointing cause he’s a really good coach.

 

[Mobiandi]

He's been given too many lunchpail duds to fall in love with

 

[super6646]

It's a very dangerous time for the organization. Gave Sutter an extension but it looks like the players are already tuning him out. Alot riding on him for Treliving. The unwillingness to allow and accept mistakes by young players really sets you on a path to nowhere in today's NHL. You need the speed, skill, enthusiasm, ELCs and ability to progress throughout a season from young players. Now yes you don't overload with youth. However Lucic, Lewis and Ritchie are only regressing. Plus the Rooney signing for $1.3 million???? That's just Treliving getting involved in the UFA market and playing fantasy manager. My god there's players like that on waivers every fall. Like absolutely no reason taking up valuable cap space like that. Also I'm over Sutter's pressers. He's making the team about himself now. The Huberdeau bathroom comment was uncalled for and I do agree pissed off the group.

Sutter has always had an ego. He can say whatever he wants about the team, but he certainly doesn’t mind the spotlight.

 

[Kranix]

I would also point that that early 20s AHLers who are over a PPG tend to translate pretty well to the NHL. And if you never give them a shot, you'll never know.

Where are you getting this? It's probably less than 1 in 5 guys who put up a ppg+ in their 23 yr old AHL season have something even close to an NHL career.
It doesn't translate.
I would like to see Phillips individual rates for this year in the A, though.

 

[Mazatt]

He's been given too many lunchpail duds to fall in love with

Treliving had to take a hard line stance like Dubas did for Babcock way back when when he got rid of Roman Polak and Matt Martin. Don't resign Lewis, don't sign Rooney, etc. Let Sutter know his job is coaching, and that Treliving's job is to put the best roster together, and that doesn't involve useless vets listlessly going around.

Even now, there's no reason Treliving can't be proactive and put Lewis, Rooney, etc. on waivers and call Phillips/Zohorna/Pelletier/etc. up. If you take away the slugs and only give Sutter young players, he'll have to play them. This is a Sutter issue but also a huge compliance from management issue

 

[Some Other Flame]

After his performance against the Oilers and hell even Dallas and his work so far this season, you really have to wonder whether that line of Gaudreau-Lindholm-Tkachuk made Sutter look better than he actually he is

 

[super6646]

After his performance against the Oilers and hell even Dallas and his work so far this season, you really have to wonder whether that line of Gaudreau-Lindholm-Tkachuk made Sutter look better than he actually he is

I really think it did. Even last year he was pretty questionable decisions being made, but winning solves all of that. Not so much this year

 

[Yepthatsme]

The mysterious disappeance of Mangiapane and Dube is having a lot of the ripple effects that people are complaining about right now. Brett Ritchie has as many even strength points, a higher P/60, and has been on the ice for half the goals that Mangiapane has. Ditto for Lewis compared to Dube, although Lewis has only been on for 3 less than him. These grinder style players are playing inflated minutes because they are flat out playing better hockey than two guys who were supposed to be key players in our top 6. Mangiapane and Dube combined for 53 goals last year. They’re nothing playing with the most offensively gifted centre they’ve played with and that are on ice for 24 total this season. Mangiapane was on the ice for 34 goals against 5v5 last year, he’s on pace to be scored against 58 times this year. Sutter hasn’t lost the room and his style hasn’t changed, two of our young key contributors have been no shows to begin this season, and the effects have been felt throughout the lineup.

 

[Zirakzigil]

The mysterious disappeance of Mangiapane and Dube is having a lot of the ripple effects that people are complaining about right now. Brett Ritchie has as many even strength points, a higher P/60, and has been on the ice for half the goals that Mangiapane has. Ditto for Lewis compared to Dube, although Lewis has only been on for 3 less than him. These grinder style players are playing inflated minutes because they are flat out playing better hockey than two guys who were supposed to be key players in our top 6. Mangiapane and Dube combined for 53 goals last year. They’re nothing playing with the most offensively gifted centre they’ve played with and that are on ice for 24 total this season. Mangiapane was on the ice for 34 goals against 5v5 last year, he’s on pace to be scored against 58 times this year. Sutter hasn’t lost the room and his style hasn’t changed, two of our young key contributors have been no shows to begin this season, and the effects have been felt throughout the lineup.

This. Cant blame Sutter for the fact that the offensive guys arent showing up and the grinders are.

 

[super6646]

The mysterious disappeance of Mangiapane and Dube is having a lot of the ripple effects that people are complaining about right now. Brett Ritchie has as many even strength points, a higher P/60, and has been on the ice for half the goals that Mangiapane has. Ditto for Lewis compared to Dube, although Lewis has only been on for 3 less than him. These grinder style players are playing inflated minutes because they are flat out playing better hockey than two guys who were supposed to be key players in our top 6. Mangiapane and Dube combined for 53 goals last year. They’re nothing playing with the most offensively gifted centre they’ve played with and that are on ice for 24 total this season. Mangiapane was on the ice for 34 goals against 5v5 last year, he’s on pace to be scored against 58 times this year. Sutter hasn’t lost the room and his style hasn’t changed, two of our young key contributors have been no shows to begin this season, and the effects have been felt throughout the lineup.

You have 3 ppg players in the AHL who could challenge for spots rather than playing grinders. Also doesn't explain Huberdeau's start too.

This. Cant blame Sutter for the fact that the offensive guys arent showing up and the grinders are.

The grinders have absolutely not shown up lol. Ritchie had a nice hot streak for 5 games and has done nothing since. Lucic has been a ghost too.

 

[Yepthatsme]

You have 3 ppg players in the AHL who could challenge for spots rather than playing grinders. Also doesn't explain Huberdeau's start too.


The grinders have absolutely not shown up lol. Ritchie had a nice hot streak for 5 games and has done nothing since. Lucic has been a ghost too.

…and Mangiapane is a whopping 6 years of improvement removed from putting up 46 points in 39 AHL games and he has arguably been worse than all those grinders putting up similar offense with only one “nice hot streak to start the year, while getting scored on way more. You complain about meritocracy but want guys waived outplaying other current roster players for guys who may help and may just struggle playing the pro game at the start, like most prospects. Sounds pretty hypocritical.

You’re right though, Huberdeau is the first player in the NHL to struggle out of the gate playing for a new team and a very different system for the first time in his career. That’s gotta be on Sutter.

 

[super6646]

…and Mangiapane is a whopping 6 years of improvement removed from putting up 46 points in 39 AHL games and he has arguably been worse than all those grinders putting up similar offense with only one “nice hot streak to start the year, while getting scored on way more. You complain about meritocracy but want guys waived outplaying other current roster players for guys who may help and may just struggle playing the pro game at the start, like most prospects. Sounds pretty hypocritical.

You’re right though, Huberdeau is the first player in the NHL to struggle out of the gate playing for a new team and a very different system for the first time in his career. That’s gotta be on Sutter.

Gaudreau and Tkachuk aren't struggling with their new systems and rosters... its been 3 months. The "establishing chemistry" excuse is really just that, an excuse. The Flames are playing with their 10.5m dollar winger with grinders, the results aren't surprising.

Mangiapane is "arguably worse" than those grinders. What a load of shit. He hasn't been good, but Lucic hasn't been NHL caliber for a calender year and Ritchie is a 12th forward on a good day who cannot contribute on any special teams. I'll just agree to disagree and not endeavour further in this argument.

 

[super6646]

Win now team playing 500 hockey.

Awesome!

 

[Mazatt]

The Flames are playing with their 10.5m dollar winger with grinders, the results aren't surprising.

Are they really playing him with grinders? Well over 50% of Huberdeau's 5v5 ice time is on the lines of:
Hubdereau - Lindholm - Toffoli
and
Huberdeau - Backlund - Coleman.

Then 20% is pretty much evenly split between Lewis and Backlund, or Kadri w/ Toffoli or Mangiapane.

There was a limited stretch of time where Lewis was put on that 3rd line but now he isn't there. Backlund, Coleman and Mangiapane last season had better underlying xG% than the Flames top line. Lindholm and Toffoli, while not stars, are still two capable scorers with varying capabilities defensively and in supporting the play. The results the Flames are getting aren't because Huberdeau is with grinders, Huberdeau just hasn't been good and the Flames rush ability without Gaudreau, Kylington, and Tkachuk is shot.

You can't tell me that there's a world where it makes sense you replace Mangiapane on a line with Huberdeau, and it drops off cause the guys are just grinders, or that Mangiapane can 'transform' grinders.



There are certainly issues with Sutter's coaching (ice time in general is non-sensical, Lucic and Lewis make awful plays and see no dimishing returns in opportunity, potential better AHL options aren't used), but the fact of the matter is the Flames do not have a roster to succeed, or at the very least do not have the players necessary to succeed playing like they need to. If I'm making a list of the 3 biggest issues with the Flames right now, Sutter doesn't even come into the honorable mentions.

 

[super6646]

Are they really playing him with grinders? Well over 50% of Huberdeau's 5v5 ice time is on the lines of:
Hubdereau - Lindholm - Toffoli
and
Huberdeau - Backlund - Coleman.

Then 20% is pretty much evenly split between Lewis and Backlund, or Kadri w/ Toffoli or Mangiapane.

There was a limited stretch of time where Lewis was put on that 3rd line but now he isn't there. Backlund, Coleman and Mangiapane last season had better underlying xG% than the Flames top line. Lindholm and Toffoli, while not stars, are still two capable scorers with varying capabilities defensively and in supporting the play. The results the Flames are getting aren't because Huberdeau is with grinders, Huberdeau just hasn't been good and the Flames rush ability without Gaudreau, Kylington, and Tkachuk is shot.

You can't tell me that there's a world where it makes sense you replace Mangiapane on a line with Huberdeau, and it drops off cause the guys are just grinders, or that Mangiapane can 'transform' grinders.



There are certainly issues with Sutter's coaching (ice time in general is non-sensical, Lucic and Lewis make awful plays and see no dimishing returns in opportunity, potential better AHL options aren't used), but the fact of the matter is the Flames do not have a roster to succeed, or at the very least do not have the players necessary to succeed playing like they need to. If I'm making a list of the 3 biggest issues with the Flames right now, Sutter doesn't even come into the honorable mentions.

The problem is huberdeau was hurt the majority of the time he was playing with lindholm, and since he’s come back has almost exclusively played with backlund-Coleman. You cannot seriously tell me that a player is going to be putting up a ppg when his line mates are 40 pt producers.

Backlund-Coleman could have great underlying stats, and in fact that entire line with huberdeau has had good underlyings, but how is a playmaker going to produce at es when he’s playing with two players who aren’t goal scorers? Backlund hasn’t had a 20 goal season in a few years and same applies with coleman.

It’s about putting players in a position to succeed, and I’ll be the first to say huberdeau hasn’t come close to meeting expectations. But right now the team is not setting him up for success nor a lot of other players.

 

[Mazatt]

The problem is huberdeau was hurt the majority of the time he was playing with lindholm, and since he’s come back has almost exclusively played with backlund-Coleman. You cannot seriously tell me that a player is going to be putting up a ppg when his line mates are 40 pt producers.

Backlund-Coleman could have great underlying stats, and in fact that entire line with huberdeau has had good underlyings, but how is a playmaker going to produce at es when he’s playing with two players who aren’t goal scorers? Backlund hasn’t had a 20 goal season in a few years and same applies with coleman.

It’s about putting players in a position to succeed, and I’ll be the first to say huberdeau hasn’t come close to meeting expectations. But right now the team is not setting him up for success nor a lot of other players.

I don't necessarily disagree, but again it comes back to the rest of the roster just not... being good? Or at least not performing.

Sensibly the best line for Huberdeau to be on is something like; Huberdeau - Kadri - Mangiapane, where he has a capable finisher, and an offensive centre to carry the pace. But ever since a hot start, Kadri has sucked, and Mangiapane all season hasn't been much of a finisher. And if you put him with Lindhom and Toffoli you kill what has been one of the Flames only productive lines by taking Ruzicka off of it.

For better or for worse the best, most consistent centre on the roster at looking impactful has been Backlund and if you want to get Huberdeau going to play with pace, Backlund historically has been a guy that can do so. There just isn't a line combination that you look at and expect ES production from that isn't already the one ES producing line.


Unless of course we can posit that Toffoli is inconsequential to Ruzicka's success, and try Huberdeau - Backlund - Toffoli (I wouldn't hate it), get Mangiapane on the top line, and surround Kadri with checkers, but even then it's taking apart the one functional line to get the chance at more functional lines. Somehow the Flames forward group keeps coming back to that same conundrum, but it denotes to me that there's a much larger roster construction issue at hand beyond Sutter being cooked or what not.

 

[super6646]

I don't necessarily disagree, but again it comes back to the rest of the roster just not... being good? Or at least not performing.

Sensibly the best line for Huberdeau to be on is something like; Huberdeau - Kadri - Mangiapane, where he has a capable finisher, and an offensive centre to carry the pace. But ever since a hot start, Kadri has sucked, and Mangiapane all season hasn't been much of a finisher. And if you put him with Lindhom and Toffoli you kill what has been one of the Flames only productive lines by taking Ruzicka off of it.

For better or for worse the best, most consistent centre on the roster at looking impactful has been Backlund and if you want to get Huberdeau going to play with pace, Backlund historically has been a guy that can do so. There just isn't a line combination that you look at and expect ES production from that isn't already the one ES producing line.


Unless of course we can posit that Toffoli is inconsequential to Ruzicka's success, and try Huberdeau - Backlund - Toffoli (I wouldn't hate it), get Mangiapane on the top line, and surround Kadri with checkers, but even then it's taking apart the one functional line to get the chance at more functional lines. Somehow the Flames forward group keeps coming back to that same conundrum, but it denotes to me that there's a much larger roster construction issue at hand beyond Sutter being cooked or what not.

Kadri has had almost no playing time with huberdeau and a rather decent sample size struggling with dube and Mangiapane. Mangiapane-backlund-Coleman wee dynamite last year, it seems to me that swapping those two would make the most sense. And if dube isn’t getting it done, there’s 3 ppg prospects down in the ahl who deserve a shot.

It seems to me the team just cannot fathom being a bit creative. If sutter tried everything and failed than we have to look at the GM, but right now I’m seeing a coach being stubborn for the sake of his ego rather than helping the team.