Is this a full rebuild or what?

[ILikeItILoveIt]

There are two types of "rebuilds": A Tank Rebuild and Competitive Rebuild. The former (without saying it) plans to lose enough to get Top 4 picks for 2-to-3 years. The latter keeps a core of vets, puts kids in key positions to develop them, and tries to win with the goal of making the playoffs WHILE the kids become the stars.

We are attempting the latter. We could have done it with Joey and Duchene, but Trotz didn't like their brand of leadership, so we now have ROR, Nyquist, and Schenn along with our holdover vets FF9, Saros, McD, and Josi.

If we succeed, we make the playoffs and give the kids a great development year. If we suck, we'll be drafting from a Top 8 position, which helps the Rebuild but it's not the goal of the Rebuild.

The vets, new and old, will likely play to their potential. That will not be enough for us to make the playoffs. The kids will need to take the next step forward, as opposed to regressing from last year.

As this unfolds, you won't be able to swing a dead cat without hitting a #1 Round Draft Pick. This should be the most exciting year in Milwaukee in a long, long time.

So, choosing a few successes from 3 categories (Old/New Vets, Pred kids in Nashville, Pred Kids in Milwaukee) will define the success of our Rebuild over the next 3 years. Ideally, we'll have the predictable "fighting for the last few playoff spots" kinda year, but with a much bigger upside as we find out which Kids form our Core-of-the-Future Cup Contending Team.

 

[Top 6 Spaling]

I sincerely hope you aren't comparing Ryan O'Reilly to Josh Bailey on any sort of level.

On ice, of course not. Off-ice, everything I've heard of Bailey is that he's a fantastic leader. It's impossible for us as fans to know, but he's an example of someone I would have been fine bringing in for the mentor/culture role.

 

[Scoresberg]

On ice, of course not. Off-ice, everything I've heard of Bailey is that he's a fantastic leader. It's impossible for us as fans to know, but he's an example of someone I would have been fine bringing in for the mentor/culture role.

You don't overhaul your organization culture with one-year deals to joshbaileys. You overhaul it over the years with oreilly's and schenns.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

You don't overhaul your organization culture with one-year deals to joshbaileys. You overhaul it over the years with oreilly's and schenns.

Case in point, a year removed from Getzlaf retiring and after a year of letting the kids flounder out there with just Adam Henrique, Cam Fowler, and the corpse of Jakob Silfverberg, the Ducks also handed out similar (but probably worse?) multi-year deals to "culture" guys Radko Gudas and Alex Killorn.

 

[LCPreds]

I know what the words of the plan are but don’t necessarily feel like this team is any better today than it was two weeks ago. Or last season. Will see how it goes. I have no desire to keep paying for tickets if they intend to just coast along in the middle (or bottom third-ish) thanks to Saros standing on his head and winning games. Watching a goalie under siege most nights just doesn’t do it for me. Good news is I have time to evaluate and make that call.

Now if they cut the beer prices to 50% alongside the food it might entice me regardless…

 

[nine_inch_fang]

I know what the words of the plan are but don’t necessarily feel like this team is any better today than it was two weeks ago. Or last season. Will see how it goes. I have no desire to keep paying for tickets if they intend to just coast along in the middle (or bottom third-ish) thanks to Saros standing on his head and winning games. Watching a goalie under siege most nights just doesn’t do it for me. Good news is I have time to evaluate and make that call.

Now if they cut the beer prices to 50% alongside the food it might entice me regardless…

No one expects them to be better than the previous years, they very well could be the same or maybe slightly better but probably a step back in the standings. That is all were talking about here though, the standings.

Any talk about this team not having a different direction and much better future projections compared to the last few summers is disingenuous. Whether this new plan works nobody can know but the on ice product and the conversations surrounding it will be completely different.

Overall result in the standings ≠ the same viewing experience

 

[LCPreds]

No one expects them to be better than the previous years, they very well could be the same or maybe slightly better but probably a step back in the standings. That is all were talking about here though, the standings.

Any talk about this team not having a different direction and much better future projections compared to the last few summers is disingenuous. Whether this new plan works nobody can know but the on ice product and the conversations surrounding it will be completely different.

Overall result in the standings ≠ the same viewing experience

Maybe I’m not understanding your point but all I really care about is the viewing experience when it comes to actually paying to go to dozens of games a season. I don’t care if they are necessarily better standings wise. I just want the product on the ice to be more enjoyable to watch than what has been happening the last season or two. Seeing signs indicating a promising future would also be nice.

 

[Edgework]

Reasons this year could be more fun to watch:

(A) the young players could improve. There are a lot of them, and some seem primed to make a step forward.

(B) brunette could be better than Hynes at delivering a watchable product.

Reasons they could be not fun:

(C) the young players could stagnate, and then we could realize there’s no “young talent” there, just young versions of mushy middle-6 hockey. That would be somewhat depressing, honestly[1].

(D) multiple injuries. It’s a thing in hockey, and it can certainly change the product[2].


Footnotes:
[1] but in that case, the path would at least be clear: we would have to fully tank to improve.

[2] Injuries probably led to a net positive in terms of watchability last year, but that’s not the norm

 

[Armourboy]

Based on this thread I guess I need to say it again, THESE SIGNINGS ARE NOT ABOUT GETTING BETTER.

We are in a rebuild, and have been in a rebuild for several years, it's just not the " you stink to high heaven and pray you don't end up still being that way after a decade " kind of rebuild.

The goal here is to create an environment where the kids learn how to play the game and do all of the things off the ice so that they, not 36 year olds are carrying the team.

Starting in two seasons these current signing will start rolling out with Nyquist. Then the following Schenn moves out, then the one after O'Reilly is gone. Every time one of those rolls out a new kid rolls in to take that spot, and if you did things right they will be teaching and showing those dudes how the team is going to operate.

Stop worrying about trying to trade guys and tank, it's never going to happen. For starters it can't happen unless Forsberg and Josi want it too, and even if they do you aren't going to get much for them because they get to decide where they go. The team you are trading with knows this, so it wouldn't even be worth it.

Same thing with Saros, no one is going to give you more than a 32-26 pick and a prospect they dont mind losing for a goalie. Thinking you are going to get anything else is a pipe dream, and honestly that may be generous.

So kick back and relax and see what the kids do when given an opportunity each season and see how it goes. That's exactly what you would be doing if they were tanking, except they wouldn't have anyone to lean on when stuff goes bad.

 

[Olderfan]

Just a couple of questions/observations:
1. Aren’t Forsberg and Josi members of the “Country Club”? Only difference being is they personally exhibit star level skills, especially Josi. My concern is their acceptance of the “new culture”. That concern is secondary to my concern of their injury status. Neither(apparently) was close to playing in the playoffs; Josi having career concussion fears and Forsberg taking a terrible looking blow.Till they show up and play in camp, I’ll remain converned.
2. Will Trotzy let AB be the coach? He’s never had to deal with that. I’m concerned he’ll forget his role; he has always been very hands on. AB is THE coach and BT is THE GM. Different jobs!

 

[nine_inch_fang]

Maybe I’m not understanding your point but all I really care about is the viewing experience when it comes to actually paying to go to dozens of games a season. I don’t care if they are necessarily better standings wise. I just want the product on the ice to be more enjoyable to watch than what has been happening the last season or two. Seeing signs indicating a promising future would also be nice.

The whole "mushy middle" term has come about because no matter what Poile tried to do with his core of players he couldn't move the needle out of that middle. It became painfully clear that the problem wasn't the ancillary players moved around the edges of the team, the mushy middle problem was literally the mushy core of the team.

Trotz has changed everything possible. And is looking toward the future and building these kids into the next core, this time hopefully it's a core that has some give a shit, true determination.

I can't promise you personally will enjoy this product more than the last few years but I can promise the circumstances surrounding the team are uncomparable.. We fans finally get the true youth movement we've wanted, the supporting cast of veterans are proven winners with a ton of give a shit and determination, and there's a new head coach that is supposed to have a knack for communication and pushing players to be better.

They might earn 90 points again next season but if they do that I highly doubt you'll be disappointed with the journey this young team took you on.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

Just a couple of questions/observations:
1. Aren’t Forsberg and Josi members of the “Country Club”? Only difference being is they personally exhibit star level skills, especially Josi. My concern is their acceptance of the “new culture”. That concern is secondary to my concern of their injury status. Neither(apparently) was close to playing in the playoffs; Josi having career concussion fears and Forsberg taking a terrible looking blow.Till they show up and play in camp, I’ll remain converned.
2. Will Trotzy let AB be the coach? He’s never had to deal with that. I’m concerned he’ll forget his role; he has always been very hands on. AB is THE coach and BT is THE GM. Different jobs!

As to number 1. Yes they are part of the country club mentality but they can't be moved. We can only hope that between Trotz's moves and Brunette's coaching style they can get with the program. If they don't this year then maybe Trotz tries to move them next offseason but I have a feeling they'll "get it".

Number 2 could be a valid worry, time will tell.

 

[Kat Predator]

who did St. Louis tank for?

A cup team doesn't have to bottom out just to get "that" player. It also doesn't always work out. What luck has AZ, NYR, NJ, and Buffalo had with their bottoming out. Intentionally tanking for the sole purpose of an early draft pick doesn't always work out. Ask Edmonton who after a decade finally made it to a conference final and that was after 6+ years of the best player in the world. And what about Toronto with their main 4? For every team that tanks and has cup wins not long after, there's also the Buffalo's, Edmonton's, Toronto's and Arizona's that either can't get out of the basement despite years of high draft picks or manage to have excellent regular seasons and get into the playoffs only to get stopped in round 1 most of the time leaving them in no different place than an 8th seed who barely gets in.

I will also add that St Louis won with a coaching change that changed the culture. That culture change is what Trotz is aiming for here.

It always works out if you (1) only consider the team that wins the cup, (2) ignore teams that win the cup and didn't bottom out, (3) focus exclusively on the high draft picks and ignore all other factors.

 

[101st_fan]

How long does "culture change" buy the team if the on ice product takes a backwards step?

 

[nine_inch_fang]

How long does "culture change" buy the team if the on ice product takes a backwards step?

To me that depends on how big the step is and the reason for that step but probably this coming and part of next season. If things don't seem to be improving by then we could be in for a rough ride.

 

[101st_fan]

To me that depends on how big the step is and the reason for that step but probably this coming and part of next season. If things don't seem to be improving by then we could be in for a rough ride.

I doubt the bulk of the fanbase gives it that long. This briefs well when there isn't an on-ice product. Once games start, people will expect results.

 

[hido]

How long does "culture change" buy the team if the on ice product takes a backwards step?

My guess would be: not long

 

[nine_inch_fang]

I doubt the bulk of the fanbase gives it that long. This briefs well when there isn't an on-ice product. Once games start, people will expect results.

I'm sure the twattershpere will have their panties in a bunch before the preseason is over.

 

[101st_fan]

I'm sure the twattershpere will have their panties in a bunch before the preseason is over.

If the team takes a step back, I expect the masses to be upset by Christmas/New Years. Being on the outside looking in, although remaining in contention, was too much for a large segment of the fanbase. A step back from that, no matter what the "culture" is in the locker room, is not going to play well.

 

[NSH615]

If the team takes a step back, I expect the masses to be upset by Christmas/New Years. Being on the outside looking in, although remaining in contention, was too much for a large segment of the fanbase. A step back from that, no matter what the "culture" is in the locker room, is not going to play well.

The problem is there seems to be a huge split in what the fanbase wants. 1/2 seem to want to do what Chicago did last year and 1/2 understand what that means to the team overall and that there is no guarantee that it works and would rather stay competitive. Because of this, social media will always look to be angry.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

The problem is there seems to be a huge split in what the fanbase wants. 1/2 seem to want to do what Chicago did last year and 1/2 understand what that means to the team overall and that there is no guarantee that it works and would rather stay competitive. Because of this, social media will always look to be angry.

I doubt it's all that close to 50/50. At best the tank/rebuild is a (often quite) vocal minority of fans that follow roster building/drafting relatively closely (e.g. the type of fan that would be involved on this board and highly active on social media). I'd gauge the vast majority of fans are more like my dad is, who will watch every Kings/Dodgers/Galaxy game, know the majority of the players fairly well, is knowledgeable about the game, and for who the concept of purposely building an awful team is a completely foreign concept (mind you, he'd still watch the games and root for wins regardless).

 

[nine_inch_fang]

So we're wondering how long it'll take the people that want to lose every game in hopes of drafting a unicorn are going to take to complain about losing?

 

[ShagDaddy]

Just a couple of questions/observations:
1. Aren’t Forsberg and Josi members of the “Country Club”? Only difference being is they personally exhibit star level skills, especially Josi. My concern is their acceptance of the “new culture”. That concern is secondary to my concern of their injury status. Neither(apparently) was close to playing in the playoffs; Josi having career concussion fears and Forsberg taking a terrible looking blow.Till they show up and play in camp, I’ll remain converned.
2. Will Trotzy let AB be the coach? He’s never had to deal with that. I’m concerned he’ll forget his role; he has always been very hands on. AB is THE coach and BT is THE GM. Different jobs!

As for 1 this is the exact same thought process I had when asking about the captaincy next year. I agree with Nine-inch that they’ll “get it”. I don’t think either of their on ice efforts have ever been in question. Sometimes they both tend to try to do too much. None of us can speak to their off ice dedication and preparation.

As for 2, Trotz has actually referenced this a couple of times already. He’s acknowledged that he’s had to catch himself a few times already so he’s aware of it. That’s a positive sign. He and Brunette have a great relationship and I think that’ll help both of them talk openly about their roles.

 

[wmupreds]

As someone who leans a little more toward the rebuilding side, the nice thing about what Poile has been able to do over the last couple years is it gives Trotz a couple different ways he can go. If a team gets desperate for goaltending and offers an absolute ransom for Saros, he can take it and torpedo the team in the short term, but they have way more in the pipeline than most tanking teams including an extremely promising goalie prospect. Meaning it shouldn't take a Buffalo or Detroit style long term tank to get back on track. On the flip side, with the number of assets at his disposal Trotz could feasibly pull off some moves to make the team instantly competitive if the right opportunities came up. And that's not necessarily a decision that has to be made right this second.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

As someone who leans a little more toward the rebuilding side, the nice thing about what Poile has been able to do over the last couple years is it gives Trotz a couple different ways he can go. If a team gets desperate for goaltending and offers an absolute ransom for Saros, he can take it and torpedo the team in the short term, but they have way more in the pipeline than most tanking teams including an extremely promising goalie prospect. Meaning it shouldn't take a Buffalo or Detroit style long term tank to get back on track. On the flip side, with the number of assets at his disposal Trotz could feasibly pull off some moves to make the team instantly competitive if the right opportunities came up. And that's not necessarily a decision that has to be made right this second.

You say you lean more toward the rebuild side. Isn't that what Trotz has done since the TDL? The only remaining high priced "talented" veterans left are Josi, Forsberg, and Saros. He's completely rebuilt this team into his vision of a competitive team that is going through a youth movement to build a future core that, hopefully, competes for a cup.

Too many people that want the team to intentionally lose and tank for draft picks use the term rebuild.

Two summers ago Poile started a "competitive retool/rebuild" he kind of lost track of that a little and tried one last ditch effort to compete. Trotz is finishing that vision in a way that Poile never would have. What neither are going to do is lose just for the sake of losing.