Is there a competitiveness problem with the World Juniors?

[ORRFForever]

You're right. The iihf should begin lobbying to make czechoslovakia a thing again.

 

[MeHateHe]

Also, until Bohemia can send its own team to the tournament again it’s a joke

 

[Moose Head]

Have two 6 team pools. The A pool, with the top 6 seeds play a round robin. All 6 make the quarter finals And are seeded 1-6 based on their record. The 7-12 teams play a round robin. The top 2 make the quarter finals as the 7-8 seeds. 1 plays 8, ect. Teams maintain their seedlings as playoffs proceed. No brackets.

 

[Habsrule]

Hockey is thriving worldwide and the World Juniors is my favourite time of the hockey year. Every year any of Canada, USA, Russia, Sweden or Finland can win gold. That’s five teams right there. Czechia and Slovakia have upped their game over the last few years. Germany and Switzerland can knock off teams too. That’s nine teams right there.

That leaves one weaker team per tournament that will get destroyed unfortunately. This year because of Russia being banned there are two teams. If you look at any other country not in the top nine, Latvia and Norway lead the way with four current NHL players. Their is a huge gap there and it shows it at the World Junior tournament.

 

[Habsrule]

Have two 6 team pools. The A pool, with the top 6 seeds play a round robin. All 6 make the quarter finals And are seeded 1-6 based on their record. The 7-12 teams play a round robin. The top 2 make the quarter finals as the 7-8 seeds. 1 plays 8, ect. Teams maintain their seedlings as playoffs proceed. No brackets.

That is a great idea in theory but what most people are trying to get away from are the many blowout games. Adding two more teams will increase the amount of blowout games. Plus there will be ties if you seed the teams #1-6 and goal differential is the tie breaker. It would force teams to run up the score to win the tie breaker.

 

[EXTRAS]

International hockey went to hell as soon as GB stopped being able to use Canadian officers stationed in London for the period leading up to world war 2.

Something something china wants to bring this rule back something something

 

[nowhereman]

Ice hockey might be the most top-heavy international sport there is.

Imagine an international American football competition... or basketball (where America has won 16 of the last 20 summer Olympic Golds) ...

Hockey is actually one of the more competitive major international sports.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Hockey is actually one of the most competitive major international sports.

Not even close. Watch the Olympics lol.

 

[novisor]

To echo what a lot of people have said, this tournament is fine. It's been tinkered with over the years (double relegation, the semi-final bye, etc.). This thread pops up every year like clock work. We pretty much see an upset every year and already have this year with Germany beating Finland. Recently, Germany has improved and is becoming a mainstay in the top division (partly because of the hole Russia left). Switzerland used to be a team on the brink of relegation over a decade ago, but no longer (this year may be an exception but they should survive).

Russia needs to be here - if they were, it's guaranteed one of the top 5 will not make the semis . With a resurgent Czech team (2023) and a stud Slovak team (2024) you could make the case there are 6 contenders plus dark horses (if Russia was included). Slovakia beat the US last year, too.

Only thing that needs to happen is the winner of Division 1A needs to be promoted the year of so their players don't age out.

 

[Garl]

Without Russia and with the current state of the Scandinavian/Finnish junior programs, might as well replace this tournament with a 7 game series between the U.S. and Canada

How does having Russia change this?

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

Finland's team looking a little weaker this year isn't helping, nvm not having Russia of course. But there's usually always a team or 2 who looks out of place even in normal years.

This year it looks like 3 teams clearly on another level (Can/USA/Swe), an ok middle group (Fin/Slovak/Czech), and some bottom feeders.

 

[JKG33]

I mean yea that's what happens when you have an already lopsided tournament and remove one of the top 4ish countries. There's a huge gap between the top 5 and bottom 5

 

[peconcan]

Would never happen especially the USSR team but it would be alot more competitive IMO if we could have
Canada
Finland
Czechoslovakia
Switzerland
USA
USSR (yes 98% of the time it would be all russians but you could still sometimes have a a few top Belarus/Ukraine/etc guys)
Sweden
Germany

 

[Kcoyote3]

Scores of the first 10 games of the tournament. 1 game within 2 goals.

6-2
5-2
4-1
6-0
3-0
4-3
8-1
10-0
11-3
5-0

No

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I think it’s too weak without Russia. When there are so few good teams getting rid of one of them hurts a lot. Bring them back for the sake of competitiveness.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Ice hockey might be the most top-heavy international sport there is.

Lacrosse

 

[SOLR]

I think it’s too weak without Russia. When there are so few good teams getting rid of one of them hurts a lot. Bring them back for the sake of competitiveness.

Nope, not at all.

 

[TheBuriedHab]

You don't love listening to Gord Miller lose his voice on Canada's garaunteed win nights vs Norway or Latvia?

 

[Statsy]

Every year any of Canada, USA, Russia, Sweden or Finland can win gold.

Does Sweden know this?

 

[Guttersniped]

That is a great idea in theory but what most people are trying to get away from are the many blowout games. Adding two more teams will increase the amount of blowout games. Plus there will be ties if you seed the teams #1-6 and goal differential is the tie breaker. It would force teams to run up the score to win the tie breaker.

It’s not a problem because the IIHF isn’t going to kick out teams to make the preliminary round more “competitive” for Canadian fans.

It’s always been top heavy.

8 teams (1977-1995)
Canada: 19 appearances
12 medals: 8 Gold 2 Silver 2 Bronze
Sweden: 19 appearances
10 medals: 1 Gold 5 Silver 4 Bronze
Finland: 19 appearances
6 medals: 1 Gold 3 Silver 2 Bronze
USA: 19 appearances
2 medals: 2 Bronze

USSR/ CIS: 16 appearances
14 medals: 9 Gold 3 Silver 2 Bronze
Russia: 3 appearances
2 medal: 1 Silver 1 Bronze

Czechoslovakia: 16/ both nations combined: 1
11 medals: 5 Silver 6 Bronze
Czech Republic: 2 appearances

Non-medal Teams:
West Germany: 12/ Germany: 3
(Best Finish: 5th in 1981)
Switzerland: 9
(Best Finish: 6th in 1987)
Norway: 5
(Best Finish: 6th in 1990)
Poland: 5
(Best Finish: 5th in 1987)
Austria: 1
(Best Finish: 8th in 1981)
Japan: 1
(Best Finish: 8th in 1993)
Ukraine: 1
(Best Finish: 8th in 1995)


10 Teams (1996-2023)
Canada: 28 appearances
23 medals: 12 Gold 8 Silver 3 Bronze
Russia: 26 appearances
21 medals: 4 Gold 9 Silver 8 Bronze
USA: 28 appearances
12 medals: 5 Gold 2 Silver 5 Bronze
Finland: 28 appearances
11 medals: 4 Gold 2 Silver 5 Bronze
Sweden: 28 appearances
10 medals: 1 Gold 6 Silver 3 Bronze
Czech Republic/ Czechia: 28 appearances
4 medals: 2 Gold 1 Silver 1 Bronze
Slovakia: 28 appearances
2 medals: 2 Bronze
Switzerland: 27 appearances
1 medal: 1 Bronze

Non-medal Teams:
Germany: 15
(Best Finish: 6th in 2021 & 2022)
Latvia: 8
(Best Finish: 7th in 2022)
Kazakhstan: 8
(Best Finish: 6th in 1999)
Belarus: 8
(Best Finish: 9th in 2001 & 2002)
Denmark: 7
(Best Result: 5th in 2017)
Austria: 5
(Best Finish: 9th in 2004)
Norway: 3
(Best Finish: 9th in 2011)
Ukraine: 3
(Best Finish: 10th in 1996, 2000 & 2004)
Poland: 1
(Best Finish: 10th in 1997)
France: 1
(Best Finish: 10th in 2002)

 

[Signupnow]

Imagine an international American football competition... or basketball (where America has won 16 of the last 20 summer Olympic Golds) ...

Hockey is actually one of the more competitive major international sports.

Its a financial sport. Not many people get to play it.. So the talent pool is reduced to the already fortunate who is by nature not hard working. This is why we don't know of any Canadian soccer player. Because it's a sport everyone can afford, I would argue hockey is the least competitive sport world wide because of the fact that it's a wintersport where only a few selected countries can play in that is well off. And that is why we see these lopsided results.

 

[BigBadBoar]

Of course any tournament would have higher quality with Russia included, however, things are as they are now. There is a hockey game and then there are lives of dozens of thousands and towns razed to the ground. Some things in this world are simply more important than hockey.

To the issue of competitiveness in junior hockey: The problem with many games being not exactly competitive is much about certain psychological fragility of the junior players and teams. Sometimes a team which is considered the underdog gives a very good stand and can even make a surprise. But sometimes a team allows, say, 2 goals at the beginning, then they break down and the rest of the game looks like the US-SUI game yesterday. Or the game is close until some sequence when one team scores two or three goals in a quick succession and again, the other team collapses and the game if effectively over. Of course this happens in men's hockey too, but much more frequently in junior hockey where the players don't have so much of experience.
Despite this, I can still enjoy the exciting games where the underdog gives a brave stand, at least for the major part of the game.

 

[Deep Blue Metallic]

Bring back Russia. This tournament immediately gets far more interesting and competitive. They always provide a wild-card element no matter where they're rated. Politics aside, their absence is undeniably felt.

Beyond that, it's a matter of someone from the carousel of annually promoted teams - Germany, Latvia, Denmark, Austria, Kazakhstan, Belorussia, etc. - to step up and compete with the big boys who are in the tournament almost every year.

Canada. USA. Sweden. Russia. Finland. Czechia. Slovakia. It's been that way for many years.

Anyone else wants it, come and get it. Invest mountains of money in rinks and coaches, and still expect to be smoked. Better be patient.

 

[Pieck]

Idk why people expect parity. It’s not the NHL with a salary cap, it’s international hockey at the junior level, there will be blowouts. Some years more than others.

The underdog stories are actually one of the main reasons I watch these days. I don’t sit through every blowout but I try to catch the start of every game at least to see if an upset might happen. And every year, there’s at least one (usually more) and it’s great to watch. I get that not everyone is like me in this regard, but if it’s not your cup of tea you don’t have to watch every game lol. And the tournament shouldn’t have to have a ridiculously small number of teams and become elitist just to appeal to you either.

In these types of threads I think the mid-low level nations get treated unfairly too. Like we always say there are only 5 good teams, but what does it matter when Slovakia took last year’s champs to OT in the quarterfinal and they aren’t a top 5 team? Is that not competitive enough? Switzerland lost 11-3 yesterday but they won 3 games last year and had 4th and 5th place finishes very recently, does that not matter anymore? Latvia lost 10-0 but they didn’t get blown out a single time last year despite finishing 5th in their group, is that not a sign of a competitive group? Germany just beat Finland. And of course, Czechia has finished top 4 twice in a row with a silver medal last year, but it feels like no one cares that they’re stepping up and decides to just cry about Russia not being there instead (note: obviously the quality is higher with Russia, probably higher than ever atm, but I don’t see the point in discussing their involvement anymore it’s been beaten to death)

Since I started closely following this tournament in 2017, I’ve seen like 10 different countries with decent teams. Not all at once obviously. That will never happen, and that’s okay. I just don’t see how it’s the end of the world if “only” 5-6 teams out of 10 have a legit chance of winning, with 2-3 more dark horses who will make the contenders work for their victories.

 

[Gold Standard]

Idk why people expect parity. It’s not the NHL with a salary cap, it’s international hockey at the junior level, there will be blowouts. Some years more than others.

The underdog stories are actually one of the main reasons I watch these days. I don’t sit through every blowout but I try to catch the start of every game at least to see if an upset might happen. And every year, there’s at least one (usually more) and it’s great to watch. I get that not everyone is like me in this regard, but if it’s not your cup of tea you don’t have to watch every game lol. And the tournament shouldn’t have to have a ridiculously small number of teams and become elitist just to appeal to you either.

In these types of threads I think the mid-low level nations get treated unfairly too. Like we always say there are only 5 good teams, but what does it matter when Slovakia took last year’s champs to OT in the quarterfinal and they aren’t a top 5 team? Is that not competitive enough? Switzerland lost 11-3 yesterday but they won 3 games last year and had 4th and 5th place finishes very recently, does that not matter anymore? Latvia lost 10-0 but they didn’t get blown out a single time last year despite finishing 5th in their group, is that not a sign of a competitive group? Germany just beat Finland. And of course, Czechia has finished top 4 twice in a row with a silver medal last year, but it feels like no one cares that they’re stepping up and decides to just cry about Russia not being there instead (note: obviously the quality is higher with Russia, probably higher than ever atm, but I don’t see the point in discussing their involvement anymore it’s been beaten to death)

Since I started closely following this tournament in 2017, I’ve seen like 10 different countries with decent teams. Not all at once obviously. That will never happen, and that’s okay. I just don’t see how it’s the end of the world if “only” 5-6 teams out of 10 have a legit chance of winning, with 2-3 more dark horses who will make the contenders work for their victories.

I agree with you. I enjoy the tournament as it is currently structured. and that includes the two banned teams staying banned for the immediate future.