Is Messier a top-5 All-Time player?

[Big Phil]

IMO the list goes as follows: Gretzky, Orr, Howe, Lemieux and Richard round out the top 5. After that you've got Beliveau, Harvey, Sawchuk, Shore, Hull and even Lafleur. Then Messier. But even then you could say Bossy, Trottier and Robinson etc. weer just as good. Messier is in the top 15 lets just say.

 

[mcphee]

My lawyer will be in touch.

And you're right, I certainly wasn't watching when Messier had the speed of Beliveau in his prime. Certainly not top end speed when Beliveau was in full stride.

Messier was a cheapshot artist and Beliveau was not, if that is your definition of tough.

Messier did play by the Howe rules. It seems the rule standards were diffrent for those 2. I would want Messier on any team I had though. Someone would have to play behind Le Gros Bill. Crosby fan, one thing people forget abouty Beliveau is that he was challenged physically early in his career and he answered the challenge. Check his PM's as hi scareer went on. Regarding the skating,yeah Messier was faster,but was he in a relative sense ? Everyone's faster now . You can say that that relative to the skating of the players in their generation, one was faster. I'd say speed,esp. outside speed was Messier's advantage, but pure vision and playmaking ability, Messier isn't in his league. Calling players complete is a decptive term I think, like saying Gretzky wasn't complete, there was no reason for him to be.

 

[Stuart McDonald]

No question. Messier's not even close to top five. I would have a hard time putting him in my top 10 FORWARDS.

 

[big_steve]

Here's how I think the Top 15 shakes out:
1. Bobby Orr
2. Wayne Gretzky(easily ahead of Orr career-wise but I still think Orr was the greater player)
3. Mario Lemieux
4. Gordie Howe
5. Maurice Richard
6. Jean Beliveau
7. Doug Harvey
8. Patrick Roy
9. Eddie Shore
10. Bobby Hull
11. Terry Sawchuk
12. Guy Lafleur
13. Ray Bourque
14. Mark Messier
15. Jacques Plante

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

Sorry, but one game doesn't erase the fact Lafleur didn't live up to his billing internationally. In 24 Canada Cup and world championship games, The Flower scored exactly four times. That's not great no matter how you slice it, especially for a pure goal scorer.

Stamina? Lafleur didn't have anywhere near the longevity of Messier and that's a measure of stamina. There's no question he was more dazzling than Messier at their peaks, but he only burned brightly for about six years and then faded quickly. It's no secret he was a heavy smoker and maybe that had something to do with it. Messier played at a higher level for longer and that's a factor in measuring greatness IMO. He scored 47 goals in his 17th season in the league at a time when goals were at a premium. Lafleur's goal total his 17th year? Twelve.

I don't know how anyone can believe a guy who is second in all-time points isn't in the same ballpark as Lafleur. Unless, of course, you're a Habs fan.

Stamina?? Don't worry, with the invention of that magic little pill, even Viagara Pimp and his worshippers can step up to the plate!!

 

[chooch*]

Stamina?? Don't worry, with the invention of that magic little pill, even Viagara Pimp and his worshippers can step up to the plate!!

That Sather agrees with me about "Toe" Gretz must really stick in your craw.

Fo shizzle!

Imagine Messier in his prime being dumped for Jimmy Carson. FO SHIZZLE!!

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

That Sather agrees with me about "Toe" Gretz must really stick in your craw.

Fo shizzle!

Imagine Messier in his prime being dumped for Jimmy Carson. FO SHIZZLE!!

I don't know if you ever noticed, but I'm not obsessed with Wayne Gretzky- you and your little friend on the other hand seem uncomfortably keen on him... Is your hatred really thinly veiled admiration and adoration? You seem to focus a lot on the star players with the longer blondish hair

That must help put the shazam back in yo fizzle, eh ?

 

[Ogopogo*]

No question. Messier's not even close to top five. I would have a hard time putting him in my top 10 FORWARDS.

slava,

Welcome to hfboards!

 

[EagleBelfour]

I couldn't agree more.

People talk of the Rocket like he was a god. He was a hockey player who scored 50 goals in 50 games. He didn't cure canceer. He was good, but I think people's perception of him is distorted because he played in the days where men where men and women didn't vote.

You've got to be french canadian to understand what the rocket was for all of us ...

(You can't compare player who plays in different ERA. Eddie Shore - The Rocket - Bobby Hull - Mark Messier ... nah you can't)

 

[alanschu]

I'm not doubting Gretzky being the best, but its interesting when people say Gretzky led the Oilers to the cups and Mess won 4 cups that way but the first cup they won it was Messier who got playoff MVP. When Gretzky was checked tight then he was stuck, Messier could hit you back and battle out of it.

Gretzky was "stuck" to 35 points in 19 games those playoffs. I can't really recall a time when Gretzky was "checked tight." He was too busy blowing past them setting up mad passes for Kurri, or scoring himself.

 

[c-carp]

Team 1040 (local radio station) all morning, upon hearing of Messier's official retirement, continued to say he was a top 5 player of all time (the other four obviously Howe, Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux).

Does anyone here agree? I mean, there's an argument if you consider intangibles, but for it to be unanimous that Messier was better than Harvey, Lafleur, Bossy, Dionne, Potvin, Trottier, Beliveau, Richard, Morenz.. I just can't fathom that.

Any second opinions?

Initial thoughts, I say no but this is a legit question.