Is Messier a top-5 All-Time player?

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by kmad, Sep 13, 2005.

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  1. kmad

    kmad riot survivor

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    Team 1040 (local radio station) all morning, upon hearing of Messier's official retirement, continued to say he was a top 5 player of all time (the other four obviously Howe, Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux).

    Does anyone here agree? I mean, there's an argument if you consider intangibles, but for it to be unanimous that Messier was better than Harvey, Lafleur, Bossy, Dionne, Potvin, Trottier, Beliveau, Richard, Morenz.. I just can't fathom that.

    Any second opinions?
     
  2. Snap Wilson

    Snap Wilson Registered User

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    Oh jesus, who cares?
     
  3. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    Being a huge Oilers fan and a huge Messier fan, I must say NO!

    People who say Messier is a top 5 player all time simply do not have much knowledge of the history of the NHL.

    Messier shakes out around 20-30 in the rankings.
     
  4. kmad

    kmad riot survivor

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    not you, apparently

    I'd say it's simply media hype. If he hadn't retired recently, nobody would be touting him as a top five.
     
  5. I agree that he is not top 5. But he also is higher than merely 20-30.

    I would say he should be somewhere between 10 and 15.

    The Hockey News once ranked him 11th or 12th, or something like that. I think that position is quite appropriate for Messier on an all-time list.
     
  6. flambers

    flambers Registered User

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    I am obviously a Flames fan but how the heck is Messier in the 20 to 30 range? I just don't get how the Points (2nd overall), only player to be the Captain on two Cup teams, 6 Cups all together, 2 Harts plus other awards. In my opinion he is top 10 probably top 5. To say he is in the 20 - 30 range is just to funny.
     
  7. Brad*

    Brad* Guest

    I don't believe he fits in to that exclusive top-five or so players in NHL history, but rather falls just short, in the tier below. He's been an outstanding player for a quarter century through a rapidly changing league, which is something only a select few can say they've accomplished. He falls short of those like Gretzky, Lemieux, and Orr because their talents were above and beyond anything that the NHL has ever seen, while Messier's were a cut below. Still, he had a tremendous career, and I would definitely rank him in the top 25 of all time, but I would probably not put him in my top five. Not far off mind you, but not quite in that group.
     
  8. K9

    K9 Registered User

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    I'd definitely put Richard, Beliveau, Bossy, Lafleur ahead of him....so for me Messier is in at about 9
     
  9. flambers

    flambers Registered User

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    If Messier is not in the top 10, 20, 25 or 30. Who is ahead of him?

    Gretzky
    Howe
    Orr
    Richard

    Are obvious great players... but I would have a tough time naming another 21 guys that are ranked higher then Messier.
     
  10. flambers

    flambers Registered User

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    I agree with Richard but I would not put any of the rest higher than Messier.
     
  11. K9

    K9 Registered User

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    So for me Messier is about 9th overall ever, for you he's about 6th overall ever, for another poster he's about 25th ever...it's all subjective anyway, there is no definitive list. Some people argue Lemieux over Gretzky, some people argue Orr over Gretzky, and I've definitely heard great arguments here in Quebec for putting Richard as 1 overall. Kind of a moot point
     
  12. Stephen

    Stephen Registered User

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    It's hard to say, really.

    Messier's numbers and individual accomplishments are every bit as impressive or better than all those players. He was more durable and effective as a player for a much greater period than most of those players listed. While most players breaking in in the late 70s and early 80s generally declining and retiring in their early 30s, Messier lasted into his mid 40s. Also, you can make the argument that the competition Messier faced in the 90s and 00s is superior physically to competition of the past when you consider things like size, conditioning, training, etc. But then you could also say that Messier's numbers were inflated because of the high scoring 80s and early 90s, that he played with Gretzky in Edmonton for 4 of his 6 cups.

    It's tough, but I do think that Messier should be in the top 10, if not the top 5.
     
  13. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    You just haven't researched hockey history.

    Wayne Gretzky
    Gordie Howe
    Bobby Orr
    Mario Lemieux
    Maurice "Rocket" Richard
    Eddie Shore
    Bobby Hull
    Jean Believeau
    Ray Bourque
    Doug Harvey
    Phil Esposito
    Stan Mikita
    Cy Denneny
    Howie Morenz
    Jaromir Jagr
    Guy Lafleur
    Bill Cowley
    Cecil " Babe" Dye


    These 18 players all had greater careers than Messier so he is #19.
     
  14. revolverjgw

    revolverjgw Registered User

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    Jagr, no way is he ''greater'' than Messier. Statistically, he's better, far inferior in other respect. No Smythe, half the Harts, inferior D and physical game, one-third the Cups and captain of none of them, he was never naked in front of Gary Coleman, and nobody's going to tell their grandchildren about Mullet Power, they'll tell them about the guaranteed victory and the hat trick, among other true heroics. I can't see an NHL GM taking 10-15 prime years of Jagr over 10-15 prime years of a true warrior. Not if they want to win as many Stanley Cups as possible.

    There's a few other guys there I disagree with, mainly Cowley and Mikita, but they're definitely all valid though, I can accept everybody else on that list except Jagirl.
     
  15. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    Top 5? No. Gretzky, Orr, Howe, Lemieux and Richard are the consensus among those in the know. (Gretzky, Howe and Orr are usually in the top three, and their order is dependent on who you talk to. Lemieux is a consensus fourth - a drop from the top three but not much of one - and Richard is another drop from five). I'd say he's somewhere between 11 and 20 for the all-time great players, and between 5th and 10th among centres. (Behind Gretzky, Mario, Beliveau and Esposito. Tough call between Messier, Clarke, Trottier, Morenz and Mikita).

    PS: I think this thread might be better served in the History of Hockey forum.
     
  16. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    I think if I had to choose careers, I'd take Messier's six Cup rings, 1 Conn Smythe Trophy (really, the most important individual award of them all), 2 Hart Trophies and a reputation for hard-nosed, physical play and leadership; over Jagr's two Cups (which came early in his career, and he wasn't nearly as valuable in any of them as Messier was in his six), 1 Hart Trophy, multiple Art Ross Trophies and reputation for surly, aloof and lazy behaviour. In fact, ask any player in the game who had the greater career and which career they'd rather have, they'll take Messier.
     
  17. EagleBelfour

    EagleBelfour Registered User

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    Wayne Gretzky
    Bobby Orr
    Mario Lemieux
    Patrick Roy
    Maurice Richard
    Gordie Howe
    Jean Beliveau
    Jacques Plante
    Terry Sawchuk
    Phil Esposito
    Bobby Hull
    -----------------------(IMO these player are in top of my list, before Messier)
    In the same category ...

    Mark Messier
    Dominik Hasek
    Guy Lafleur
    Stan Mikita
    Howie Morenz
    Vadislav Tretiak
    Martin Brodeur (at the end of his career)
    Steve Yzerman (?)
    Eddie Shore
    Raymond Bourque
    Mike Bossy
    Doug Harvey
    -----------------------
    Some will argue to put on the list above:

    Bobby Clarke
    Denis Potvin
    Glenn Hall
    Georges Vézina
    Larry Robinson
    Red Kelly
    Ted Lindsay
    Joe Malone
    Valeri Kharlamov
    Harry Cameron
    Cy Dennedy

    (I know I forgot some!)

    (I edit to put Howe on my list, I know I forgot one!!!)



    To conclude, I would put Messier on Top 20, probably between 15 and 18.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2005
  18. EagleBelfour

    EagleBelfour Registered User

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    Even if they are amazing players, I don't see them close to Messier ... and I think no one will argue that.
     
  19. monster_bertuzzi

    monster_bertuzzi registered user

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    LOL Jaromir Jagr, Cy Denneny, Cecil Dye, Bill Cowley, and Guy Lafleur have not had better careers than Messier's 6 Stanley cups, 2 Hart trophies, Conn Smythe trophy, and 2nd most carreer points.

    Hah, Cy Denneny a better career than Messier...
     
  20. pnep

    pnep Registered User

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    by numbers...

    # -- POS -- "HHOF Monitor" Points -- Player
    ==================================
    001 -- C -- 8827,02 -- Gretzky Wayne
    002 -- R -- 6171,61 -- Howe Gordie
    003 -- D -- 4664,82 -- Bourque Ray
    004 -- C -- 4586,35 -- Lemieux Mario
    005 -- C -- 4253,44 -- Beliveau Jean

    006 -- C -- 4096,48 -- Esposito Phil
    007 -- D -- 4037,97 -- Orr Bobby
    008 -- R -- 3829,98 -- Richard Maurice
    009 -- L -- 3671,88 -- Hull Bobby
    010 -- C -- 3583,61 -- Mikita Stan

    011 -- D -- 3467,36 -- Harvey Doug
    012 -- R -- 3237,64 -- Jagr Jaromir
    013 -- G -- 3235,65 -- Roy Patrick
    014 -- G -- 3221,51 -- Hasek Dominik
    015 -- G -- 3155,64 -- Hall Glenn
    016 -- R -- 3060,04 -- Lafleur Guy
    017 -- G -- 3036,02 -- Plante Jacques
    018 -- C -- 3030,49 -- Messier Mark
    019 -- D -- 2958,37 -- Coffey Paul
    020 -- D -- 2925,27 -- Kelly Red
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2005
  21. KRM

    KRM Registered User

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    No Howe :amazed:

    IMO Lemieux is 2nd no injuries and he would be up there with Gretzky. But I'm biased :)

    Messier, I agree with most in here, around 10th place.
     
  22. K9

    K9 Registered User

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    No love for Bossy?

    I think he was the purest goal scorer ever
     
  23. Garbs

    Garbs Registered User

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    I'd say somewhere between 10 and 15.
     
  24. Bill McNeal

    Bill McNeal Registered User

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    You mean the Guy Lafleur who won 5 Stanley Cups, 3 Art Ross trophies, 2 Hart trophies, 1 Conn Smythe trophy and 3 Lester B. Pearson trophies?

    Maybe he didn't have Messier's longevity, but Guy Lafleur is very comparable to him.
     
  25. ChrisKreider20

    ChrisKreider20 But y u mad?

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    why was howe considered so good. the only reason he scored so many points was because he played so many seasons. Esposito outscored him regularly. I think Orr is 2nd best judging by his stats.

    my top 3 are

    Gretzky
    Orr
    Lemieux
     
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