Is Keith going the way of... Hammer?

[Crow]

I think just the opposite is often true of these boards. People here see a player having a down year who is in his 30s and think, oh he is definitely past it.

Two years ago people were saying Hossa is completely done. The following year he bounced back in a huge way, to the point where his presence was sorely missed this year.

So it’s uncertain what Keith will bring to the team next year. He could have an amazing bounce back that surprises a lot of people here. Even if he did, I think there exists both a confirmation and a negativity bias that would prevent some people from realizing that he was playing at a high level again. Hossa’s bounce back was much more easy to measure objectively than any D man’s would be.

I actually think Seabrook looked quite a bit better this year than last. This is probably due to how he was utilized. Yet this year he was more criticized than ever.

All that said, I expect Keith will have a similar year next year. Perhaps it will be a bit better if the hawks are playing meaningful games.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

I think just the opposite is often true of these boards. People here see a player having a down year who is in his 30s and think, oh he is definitely past it.

I agree. I think it goes the other way too, assuming that younger players will automatically get better. Neither is a given.

That's not to say I expect to see Keith competiting for a Norris. I think those days are almost assuredly gone. But there's is a huge gap between top dman in the league and what he was this year. I think he rebounds a bit next year. Of course getting a better partner would go along way in that regard as well.

 

[Callidusblackhawk]

I agree. I think it goes the other way too, assuming that younger players will automatically get better. Neither is a given.

That's not to say I expect to see Keith competiting for a Norris. I think those days are almost assuredly gone. But there's is a huge gap between top dman in the league and what he was this year. I think he rebounds a bit next year. Of course getting a better partner would go along way in that regard as well.

Better systems would help quite a bit as well. Hopefully Q can try some out next season.

 

[Blackhawks]

You gotta love Keith, I believe he was the true irreplaceable player to win all 3 cups and without him no cups would have won, second comes Kane, Toews comes in a third and it’s a shame he has fallen so much at such a young age. Keith though I still have no complains and watch for him have an amazing season next year...

 

[Pez68]

So a Norris winning defenseman was saddled with a 6/7 almost the entire year, and looked like shit???? Who would have thought????

Keith is 35 years old and has played a ridiculous anount of minutes in the NHL and in international competitions. The mileage on his legs is ridiculous. Whenever I hear that “cyborg” crap or “he isn’t human” nonsense its almost like an excuse to point a finger at him for bad play and using his age cannot possibly be a factor. Its dumb and its not fair to Keith.

Newsflash, Keith is in fact human. He is an older player, has likely played the minutes in his career of someone in his 40’s. If anyone on this team deserves a pass and more understanding for a decline in play it’s Keith, a warrior who has given his absolute all to this organization.

In this day and age, I don't buy the mileage excuse for a minute. I'm 38, and in all honesty, the more I play....the better I feel.... "Mileage" in hockey is f***ing nonsense.

 

[Blue Liner]

So a Norris winning defenseman was saddled with a 6/7 almost the entire year, and looked like ****???? Who would have thought????



In this day and age, I don't buy the mileage excuse for a minute. I'm 38, and in all honesty, the more I play....the better I feel.... "Mileage" in hockey is ****ing nonsense.

In fairness, comparing men's league, even at an elite level, to the grind and pounding of NHL seasons doesn't really match up I don't think. Plus, as (I think?) you have pointed out in other threads, everyone's body is different and starts to break down at different times. Not everyone is Lidstrom or Chelios. Not a ton of 38 year olds playing in the league, let alone at peak form for their careers.

 

[LordKOTL]

In all accounts Keith should rebound from sucking hard this year, but to what degree? I doubt we see a Norris-calibre D-man again from him and even if he is utilized correctly we're still going to see an aging defenseman--kinda like how Hossa rebounded from 2015. His 2016 was good, but it still wasn't quite up to Vintage Hossa. However, unlike Keith this year Hoss was properly utilized to good effect in 2016.

If Q continues to use/abuse Keith like he did this past season, it's not going to be good. If Q refined his role to that which Keith is still good at, Keith should be fine.

 

[hawksfan50]

Keith and Seabs both say in their exit interviews with the press that they will use the summer to get back on the best shape so that they can play better next season...The problem is we head the same spiel from Toews last summer...how he would train differently etc...to rebound after 2 poor 58 point seasons...But look what he gave us this season...even worse ! SO you expect Keith and Seabs to rebound to effective impact? To rebound to Competence again?Merely from Sumner training harder? Seems to me the hunger want and Focus has to improve and training will not do that ...maybe sessions with a sports psychologist would help the compete juices flow back in to get them to play harder and sacrifice more to help our defense get back to at least some kind of even ....The days of +25 or greater in 5x5 would apoear long gone as an expectation from them no matter how hard they put bint summer training ..The hunger to defend as if their lives depended on it ...that would help a lot..but really ..can we expect such a magic pill that they "really want it:instead of been there ....done that ...as 3 time Cup Champs ..and with their minds just re-living the glory days while they play bin a fog with incompetent results?

AS for Toews. ..3 strikes and ...well you know..do not expect the star level guy he once was.


As for Saad ...you could make a case for his shooting % to get back over 11% from justv8% and he is still young enough not to use the age and so many wars excuse ..so we probably should expect at least Saad to rebound (we hope).

Even Kane needs to commit more than he did this season..Certainly not on a mission. ..dlacled off in 2nd half..defense and checking went MIA.. WE hope he gets the hunger again to star and to put more effort into his defensive assignments without the puck.


Look...it was a rotten year all around from our Core ..our vets who were paid the most ...With CC it was bad luck to get injured and lose him the 2nd half..But with the others. ..simply their own rotten play that doomed bus.

BACK TO KEITH...if he gets back to a 0 in +/- next season from his disastrous -29 this season,then that will be an enormous swing of positive impact for our team..HE should not be running our PP...2 goals ...no way any dman with just that and who fails the eye test on shots from thempiintv (too many blocked...too many unblocked that miss the net)
..no way we should have him running our PP..If Q does that for sure he will lose his job ...

 

[Panzerspitze]

A longer offseason should help too. I mean, just look back at the previous three seasons... Besides, the "core" (except maybe Kane) needs time filling out all the paperwork AARP is flooding them with.

 

[Blackhawks]

A longer offseason should help too. I mean, just look back at the previous three seasons... Besides, the "core" (except maybe Kane) needs time filling out all the paperwork AARP is flooding them with.

What on earth are you talking about? This team has bad 2 very long offseasons already and if you think one or two weeks will make that much of a difference you are kidding yourself...

 

[Blackhawks]

Keith and Sean both say in their exit interviews with the press that they will use the summer to get back on the best shape so that they can play better next season...The problem is we head the same spiel from Toes last summer...how he would train differently etc...to rebound after 2 poor 58 point seasons...But look what he gave us this season...even worse ! SO you expect Keith and Sean to rebound to effective impact? To rebound to Competence again?Merely from Sumner training harder? Seems to me the hunger want and Focus has to improve and training will not do that ...maybe sessions with a sports psychologist would help the compete juices flow back in to get them to play harder and sacrifice more to help our defense get back to at least some kind of even ....The days of +25 or greater in 5x5 would apoear long gone as an expectation from them no matter how hard they put bint summer training ..The hunger to defend as if their lives depended on it ...that would help a lot..but really ..can we expect such a magic pill that they "really want it:instead of been there ....done that ...as 3 time Cup Champs ..and with their minds just re-living the glory days while they play bin a fog with incompetent results?

AS for Toes. ..3 strikes and ...well you know..do not expect the star level guy he once was.


As for Saad ...you could make a case for his shooting % to get back over 11% from justv8% and he is still young enough not to use the age and so many wars excuse ..so we probably should expect at least Saad to rebound (we hope).

Even Kane needs to commit more than he did this season..Certainly not on a mission. ..dlacled off in 2nd half..defense and checking went MIA.. WE hope he gets the hunger again to star and to put more effort into his defensive assignments without the puck.


Look...it was a rotten year all around from our Core ..our vets who were paid the most ...With CC it was bad luck to get injured and lose him the 2nd half..But with the others. ..simply their own rotten play that doomed bus.

BACK TO KEITH...if he gets back to a 0 in +/- next season from his disastrous -29 this season,then that will be an enormous swing of positive impact for our team..HE should not be running our PP...2 goals ...no way any dman with just that and who fails the eye test on shots from thempiintv (too many blocked...too many unblocked that miss the net)
..no way we should have him running our PP..If Q does that for sure he will lose his job ...

Who the frick is Sean?

 

[Panzerspitze]

What on earth are you talking about? This team has bad 2 very long offseasons already and if you think one or two weeks will make that much of a difference you are kidding yourself...

May I suggest the purchase of this handy little gadget?

 

[Panzerspitze]

Who the frick is Sean?

It's a typo for "Bartolo".

 

[Blackhawks]

May I suggest the purchase of this handy little gadget?

Oh lol, I usually catch sarcasm, not that time but with the extremely mind boggling ideas on here can you blame me?

 

[Pez68]

In fairness, comparing men's league, even at an elite level, to the grind and pounding of NHL seasons doesn't really match up I don't think. Plus, as (I think?) you have pointed out in other threads, everyone's body is different and starts to break down at different times. Not everyone is Lidstrom or Chelios. Not a ton of 38 year olds playing in the league, let alone at peak form for their careers.

Mileage is different from aging, though. Or injuries.

 

[COHawk]

Keith is 35 years old and has played a ridiculous anount of minutes in the NHL and in international competitions. The mileage on his legs is ridiculous. Whenever I hear that “cyborg” crap or “he isn’t human” nonsense its almost like an excuse to point a finger at him for bad play and using his age cannot possibly be a factor. Its dumb and its not fair to Keith.

Newsflash, Keith is in fact human. He is an older player, has likely played the minutes in his career of someone in his 40’s. If anyone on this team deserves a pass and more understanding for a decline in play it’s Keith, a warrior who has given his absolute all to this organization.

Seriously, he's been a workhorse. Since TOI became a stat in 1998/99, Keith ranks #9 for TOI/game played. Here is the top 30:

Player	TOI	From	To	Active	GP	TOI/GP
Chris Pronger*	22,111	1998	2012	13	805	27.467
Brian Leetch*	12,983	1998	2006	7	480	27.048
Nicklas Lidstrom*	27,790	1998	2012	13	1,033	26.902
Drew Doughty	20,218	2008	2018	10	770	26.257
Sergei Zubov	18,047	1998	2009	10	688	26.231
Erik Karlsson	16,278	2009	2018	9	627	25.962
Scott Niedermayer*	20,504	1998	2010	11	809	25.345
Duncan Keith	25,092	2005	2018	13	995	25.218
Ryan Suter	24,862	2005	2018	13	991	25.088
Rob Blake*	19,943	1998	2010	11	801	24.898
Derian Hatcher	14,845	1998	2008	9	597	24.866
Alex Pietrangelo	15,265	2008	2018	10	617	24.741
Roman Josi	11,837	2011	2018	7	481	24.609
Eric Desjardins	11,426	1998	2006	7	465	24.572
Jay Bouwmeester	27,088	2002	2018	15	1,106	24.492
P.K. Subban	14,248	2009	2018	9	582	24.481
Alexei Zhitnik	16,049	1998	2008	9	656	24.465
Zdeno Chara	34,197	1998	2018	19	1,398	24.461
Bryan McCabe	21,675	1998	2011	12	889	24.381
Mattias Ohlund	20,194	1998	2011	12	832	24.272
Shea Weber	20,946	2005	2018	13	867	24.159
Dion Phaneuf	23,592	2005	2018	13	981	24.049
Scott Stevens*	10,325	1998	2004	6	435	23.736
Sergei Gonchar	25,162	1998	2015	16	1,063	23.671
Oliver Ekman-Larsson	13,623	2010	2018	8	576	23.651
Kris Letang	16,114	2006	2018	12	682	23.628
Joni Pitkanen	12,640	2003	2013	9	535	23.626
Adam Foote	16,970	1998	2011	12	719	23.602
Janne Niinimaa	13,852	1998	2007	8	587	23.598

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Salvaged Ship]

Seriously, he's been a workhorse. Since TOI became a stat in 1998/99, Keith ranks #9 for TOI/game played. Here is the top 30:

Player	TOI	From	To	Active	GP	TOI/GP
Chris Pronger*	22,111	1998	2012	13	805	27.467
Brian Leetch*	12,983	1998	2006	7	480	27.048
Nicklas Lidstrom*	27,790	1998	2012	13	1,033	26.902
Drew Doughty	20,218	2008	2018	10	770	26.257
Sergei Zubov	18,047	1998	2009	10	688	26.231
Erik Karlsson	16,278	2009	2018	9	627	25.962
Scott Niedermayer*	20,504	1998	2010	11	809	25.345
Duncan Keith	25,092	2005	2018	13	995	25.218
Ryan Suter	24,862	2005	2018	13	991	25.088
Rob Blake*	19,943	1998	2010	11	801	24.898
Derian Hatcher	14,845	1998	2008	9	597	24.866
Alex Pietrangelo	15,265	2008	2018	10	617	24.741
Roman Josi	11,837	2011	2018	7	481	24.609
Eric Desjardins	11,426	1998	2006	7	465	24.572
Jay Bouwmeester	27,088	2002	2018	15	1,106	24.492
P.K. Subban	14,248	2009	2018	9	582	24.481
Alexei Zhitnik	16,049	1998	2008	9	656	24.465
Zdeno Chara	34,197	1998	2018	19	1,398	24.461
Bryan McCabe	21,675	1998	2011	12	889	24.381
Mattias Ohlund	20,194	1998	2011	12	832	24.272
Shea Weber	20,946	2005	2018	13	867	24.159
Dion Phaneuf	23,592	2005	2018	13	981	24.049
Scott Stevens*	10,325	1998	2004	6	435	23.736
Sergei Gonchar	25,162	1998	2015	16	1,063	23.671
Oliver Ekman-Larsson	13,623	2010	2018	8	576	23.651
Kris Letang	16,114	2006	2018	12	682	23.628
Joni Pitkanen	12,640	2003	2013	9	535	23.626
Adam Foote	16,970	1998	2011	12	719	23.602
Janne Niinimaa	13,852	1998	2007	8	587	23.598

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Well I was told by someone the amount you play over a career has no bearing on someones play declining, so in spite of completely disagreeing I decided to shut up. And on top of that we know he has had knee issues and with the silent injury policy of the NHL we have no idea what shape that knee is in or how all of those “miles” has affected it.

My original post stands, the amount of play along with age has combined in his decline and probably worn his bad knee down. Guy is a warrior, I have no issues and complete understanding on why he is not the player he once was.

 

[COHawk]

Well I was told by someone the amount you play over a career has no bearing on someones play declining, so in spite of completely disagreeing I decided to shut up. And on top of that we know he has had knee issues and with the silent injury policy of the NHL we have no idea what shape that knee is in or how all of those “miles” has affected it.

My original post stands, the amount of play along with age has combined in his decline and probably worn his bad knee down. Guy is a warrior, I have no issues and complete understanding on why he is not the player he once was.

I agree with you. Not everyone can be a physical specimen like Nik Lidstrom and play incredibly well into their 40s. I mean shit, Bobby Orr was retired and in the HHOF well before Keith's current age. Makes you think about what our expectations really should be for level of play as a player ages.

 

[hawksfan50]

OK sorry about the typos in Mt last post. ..I corrected them ...somehow Seabs turned into Dean and Toews turned into Toes..but my errors in typing on a small keyboard on my smartphone are not important. .what is are the points I was making ...and on Keith especially ,and no "goid" season for him would be to eradicate the -29 to at the very least Even...the days of him getting back to +25 all star for and 30 minutes a night are long long gone.. He should not be on oulousy PP. .he is a big part of its problems ...I do not think he is an effective pk guy either aymore...He just seemed to have lost his compete "hunger" and was playing like a cheque-casher punching a clock ..his mind in a fog many shifts..weak stick-vhecls ...good or beat a lot more than in his good for years..Can he rebound. .from -29 ?Yes ..but probably not to any form of "dominating" ice presence again..Looking off 29 goals against would be a great achievement because I do not expect very much offer sive production improvement from him at this stage of his career.So it would be great if he just focused on preventing a lot more goals..by better mire focused checking...staying with checks longer.. winning more puck battles..being hungrier not to give an inch and blocking paths you our net...and a clearer more aware mind to realize where the puck is and clear it away from our crease ..Whatever substances he was taking that dulled his mind or water psychological problems he was going g through...they must be jettisoned to get him back to 100% Focus on hockey and his own level of play..I believe his offensivecskilks have diminished ..but if Q dies not mis-use andbover'use him I believe he can rebound to be more effective preventing goals and that SHOULD get him back to about evens in the +/- game at even strength ..That does not make him a #1 anymore ..but we cannot win if he is a -29 ..Get back to even...That would be a great I mprovement for us.And ifhe can no longer do even that ,then it is indeed over for him and he joins the list of albatross contracts we now have accumulated and we shall have to consider the old LTIR remedy for his aging disease ...

We are promised a re-juvebation in that Keith and Seabs say they will dedicate this summer to report back in the best shape they can be for next season..but we heard this from Toews about his new training methods last summer..and that turned out badly ..So I hope Keith and Seabs do not expect their promise to improve training will get them back to "stardom"...how about just to "competence" again?I would take that ..it will not win us a Cup but it could get us back to playoffs and some respect instead of being the new laughingstock of the league..