Hobnobs
Pinko
- Nov 29, 2011
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For good measure:
Known as the "ever green tree" in China
Waldner was just sick..
For good measure:
Known as the "ever green tree" in China
That said, I really don't think we can hold Cruyff's lack of a World Cup with Holland against him much the same way I don't think anyone could look at the fact that Bourque never won a Cup in Boston and have that as a legitimate argument that he's not one of the top 5 defensemen of all time. He carried a Holland team that was inferior to a World Cup Final winning the Golden Ball in the process.
Most soccer forums tend to favour Maradona over Pele by the way. It makes sense too. He won serie a with a very mediocre franchise and he took a very mediocre argentina team to the world cup twice. Maradona is a midfielder, he's not supposed to dominate statiscally like the way gretzky did.
Maradona took them to the final twice; won in '86 but lost in '90 (both vs. West Germany).
And he was poor in the 1982 tournament; yes, he was pretty young (21) and the opponents did focus on him a lot (there was some rough stuff and all). But e.g. Pelé at 17 was one of the best players (along with Didi, Carrincha, Just Fontaine etc) already in his first World Cup in 1958, and certainly the best player in his last one in 1970, although he did have his 'off-years' too in between.
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BTW, it's nice to talk about something else than hockey for a change.
put messi to england premier league, he will have tough time to score 20.
Cruyff is probably my favourite soccer player of all-time and almost certainly the best player in the 1970s (Beckenbauer the only rival for that), and the 1974 Netherlands with their 'total football' (equivalent of USSR in hockey?) is my favourite national team ever, even though I've only seen the highlights from the 1974 tournament. Shame that they didn't win. And too bad that Cruyff didn't play in the 1978 tournament (although his doppelganger Rob Rensenbrink did ).
But is Cruyff really often in the discussion (on the world's best player ever)? I've always sort of automatically thought that he was just a little below the Pelé/Maradona level, and I don't think it's just because he doesn't have a world cup.
In the 2009 playoffs, Lebron James posted a player efficiency rating of 37.4. Jordan never did that. In the 2014 playoffs, lebron james posted a true shooting percentage of 66.6% in the playoffs, better than any playoff run jordan or chamberlain ever had.
Lebron James has more regular seasons with a player efficiency rating above 27 than Wilt Chamberlain. He's got just as many mvps and hes an elite defender.
Peak vs peak, Lebron is right up there with Wilt and Jordan. Only difference is that he's a much better ball handler and offensive facilitator, which doesn't show up in the stats sheet.
The advanced stats dont lie, they say lebron james is just as good if not better than jordan and chamberlain.
Except Jordan won the scoring title every year. He won the title almost every year. And not with Walton, McHale and Parish, or Kareem and Worthy... But basically just with Pippen.
James does not have the mental make-up of Jordan (or Gretzky). He is amazing, he is physically perfect, he rarely makes mistakes, he works hard all the time. But he still does not have the iron will to be the best. He doesn't care if he wins the scoring title. He finishes 2nd every year. He could win them if he was a bit more selfish... If he NEEDED to win them all, but he doesn't NEED to. Jordan needed to. He needed to be the best in a way that almost no one on earth wanted something. Same with Gretzky. Same with Bird for instance (though he doesn't have the same talent). Lebron has it all, but the mentality to destroy everyone. And I am
Not saying he is soft, or that he is not incredibly determimed. His will is amazing... But it is not pathological like Jordan's was. Jordan was not the best because he had this bucket of skills no one else had. Drexler, Carter, Dr. J had incredible skills (maybe not Jordan's but similiar). What Gretzky and Jordan had was an incredible desire to be the best. Lebron WANTS to be the best. Jordan NEEDED to be as much as he needed oxygen and water to live. It is a difference, the difference. And it is no fault of Lebron, he is probably better and happier not being a psychotic win-aholic. But he is also not better then Jordan and never will be.
Except Jordan won the scoring title every year. He won the title almost every year. And not with Walton, McHale and Parish, or Kareem and Worthy... But basically just with Pippen.
James does not have the mental make-up of Jordan (or Gretzky). He is amazing, he is physically perfect, he rarely makes mistakes, he works hard all the time. But he still does not have the iron will to be the best. He doesn't care if he wins the scoring title. He finishes 2nd every year. He could win them if he was a bit more selfish... If he NEEDED to win them all, but he doesn't NEED to. Jordan needed to. He needed to be the best in a way that almost no one on earth wanted something. Same with Gretzky. Same with Bird for instance (though he doesn't have the same talent). Lebron has it all, but the mentality to destroy everyone. And I am
Not saying he is soft, or that he is not incredibly determimed. His will is amazing... But it is not pathological like Jordan's was. Jordan was not the best because he had this bucket of skills no one else had. Drexler, Carter, Dr. J had incredible skills (maybe not Jordan's but similiar). What Gretzky and Jordan had was an incredible desire to be the best. Lebron WANTS to be the best. Jordan NEEDED to be as much as he needed oxygen and water to live. It is a difference, the difference. And it is no fault of Lebron, he is probably better and happier not being a psychotic win-aholic. But he is also not better then Jordan and never will be.
This is bottomline crazy. You take a man with very questionable work ethic and without noticeable statistical domination over the hardest working athlete on god's green earth with an insane will to win and 64 records in the books?Gretzky may have the pretty stats, but as a gm/owner, I will take diego maradona over any athlete 10 times out of 10. Put diego on a ****** team at club and international level and he will win. He doesn't need talent around him to succeed and thats why most educated soccer fans view maradona as the greatest soccer player of all times.
In the 2009 playoffs, Lebron James posted a player efficiency rating of 37.4. Jordan never did that. In the 2014 playoffs, lebron james posted a true shooting percentage of 66.6% in the playoffs, better than any playoff run jordan or chamberlain ever had.
Lebron James has more regular seasons with a player efficiency rating above 27 than Wilt Chamberlain. He's got just as many mvps and hes an elite defender.
Peak vs peak, Lebron is right up there with Wilt and Jordan. Only difference is that he's a much better ball handler and offensive facilitator, which doesn't show up in the stats sheet.
The advanced stats dont lie, they say lebron james is just as good if not better than jordan and chamberlain.
This is bottomline crazy. You take a man with very questionable work ethic and without noticeable statistical domination over the hardest working athlete on god's green earth with an insane will to win and 64 records in the books?
"Most educated soccer fans"... translation: "people that agree with you." Pele is #1. Maradona needed to cheat to beat teams weaker than his own. His teammates were not as weak as you make them sound (Valdano, Burruchaga, etc.). Yet he suffered his share of bad losses.
Gretzky's LA had no goalie or defense, that's why he didn't win. Nothing to do with Gretzky, who was still lighting up the league. Far more than Maradona.
Say what now?Robitaille and Nicholls are hall of famers, so is rob blake.
Maradona also played in serie a and la liga. Serie a is by far the most defensive minded league. Pele played in the brazilian state league, lol.
Where did pele score his goals? The state league, lol garbage competetion. Maradona is much better than pele.
Go on a soccer forum and say this and everyone there will laugh at you.
Brazil won the world cup without pele.
In soccer, the player that brings the ball up, set up the attack and stays visible throughout the entire game is the guy that makes the most impact, not the centre forwards that just cherry pick and score goals.
ushvinder: your post is so out-of-line there is little else to add to what the others said. It's full of misconceptions (striker's role), distortions (I only brought up national team performances to make it more even), factual errors (Nicholls), and ignores other facts that I mentioned (work ethic, cheating, etc.). NOBODY will laugh at me on any soccer forum if I call Pele #1. And no sane coach / GM would pick Maradona over Gretzky to start a club (unless it's a strip club we're talking ).
Btw, what is the NT assist count for Pele and Maradona? I couldn't find the data, but it will take A LOT of assists for Diego to overcome the HUMONGOUS deficit in goals (34 in 91 games vs. 77 in 92 games for Pele).
That said: I'm not belittling Maradona's accomplishments. What he did in Napoli and in the World Cups was spectacular. He just wasn't Pele, that's all. Not in numbers, not in accomplishments, not in work ethic. But that's OK. In the real world, athletes are not divided into "GOAT" and "scrubs." Zidane and Beckenbauer were not scrubs. They just weren't Pele. They'll be the first to tell you that.
You do realize back then the Brazil league was amongst, if not the, strongest in the world, right?
I don't see why they would laugh considering he's seen by majority as the greatest of all time. Seems like you just have a lot of hate for him more than anything else, did the dude sleep with your wife or something lol
Lol what, besides his second cup win where he was injured, he lead his team for the other 2. Dude was only 17 and he scored a hat trick in the semis and then 2 goals in the finals, that's crazy and we're probably never seeing that again. One thing's for sure, he didn't have to use the hand of God to win world cups
Lmao, you make it sound like all a striker does is poach, even though it's the most important position on the field. Besides, Pele played as an attacking midfielder also in his own way as well, the man was really versatile
Anyway, top 5 most dominant compared to their sport:
1) Gretzky
2) Jordan
3) Pele
4) Ruth
5) Bolt
Bradman's probably up there too, but I can only go by statistics since I don't know that much about him
He isnt seen by the majority as the best, maradona won the fifa internet poll in a landslide. Many players and coaches view maradona as the best.
Striker isnt the most important position on the field, that is your opinion.
Neither of pele's world cup runs compare to 86. Why did you ignore the fact that brazil won without him and 5-6 of his teammates made the all star team, while maradona never had any of his teammates make the world cup all star team.
Pele scored most of his goals in the brazilian state league, where your are constantly playing teams two or three tiers below your own team. It has always been a stat padding league. You are just buying the fifa marketing hype of pele.
Dont try and act like pele is seen by the majority as the best, hes not. Most websites are now ranking maradona higher, as do players that saw both. You are simply buying the fifa marketing machine. An organization that hates maradona.
Your comparing the level of competition in the brazilian state league to serie a, your kidding right? Pele would have never put up those numbers in serie a, the brazilian state league is very unbalanced.
Go on soccer sites and say this, shoving pele down a hockey website doesnt prove anything. You wont win though because most soccer sites are picking maradona now.
Pele didnt lead any team, they didnt need him to win in 62, in 1970 jarinzho scored twice as many goals and he had 5-6 players make the all star team, maradoan had Zero. Pele never played in serie a and la liga. You cant compare their competition. In brazil, pele was playing worldclass teams a few times a year, th other games were against regional state club team. The compeition is literally amatuer compared to seriea a in the 80s. People on soccer forums would actually laugh at u if u suggest pele had tougher compeition at club level, because hes basically unproven outside world cups. Maradona is better than him deal with it.
Anyway, top 5 most dominant compared to their sport:
1) Gretzky
2) Jordan
3) Pele
4) Ruth
5) Bolt
If you're talking about the 2002 poll, Maradona won it by a very slim margin over Pele: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup_Dream_Team
If you're talking about the 2002 poll, Maradona won it by a very slim margin over Pele: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup_Dream_Team
How exactly did Cruyff play "against the best" any more than Pelé did?Pele never dominated his peers as much as Gretzky did. Not internationally atleast and as we all know he didn't play regularly against the best like Messi, Maradona and Cryuff so his domination in international games should be the thing that really matters and even in World Cups he along with team Brazil sometimes failed pretty badly.
If anything qualifying from South America is more difficult than qualifying from Europe.at the time World Cups also had 16 teams not 32 and qualifying from South America is pretty easy.
LeBron is quite possibly the greatest physical specimen in sports history,