Would he still hold the same place in history?
I thought this was about if we only changed his nationality, not the history of his career. (not stating it is, I'm not sure what the thread author meant)Just think about it for a second. If he was Russian, he would have been stuck in the USSR until about 1989. You've just wiped out four Cup rings, the 50-in-39, the 92-goal season, the 215-point season, all the other 200-point seasons, the lapping of the field in the 1986-87 scoring race, and the dominant performance with Mario at the 1987 Canada Cup.
He'd have an incredible international portfolio, but his NHL career would have started in 1989-90. But all of the accomplishments that lead to arguments that Gretzky is the best ever would be wiped out. Plus, you'd have the adjustment to North American hockey and culture. He might win a scoring title or two, and he might have dominated the 1993 playoffs. We don't know that. But we do know that he doesn't play in North America until his late 20s. So no, he wouldn't be viewed as the best ever.
And I believe the name Gretzky is Polish.
Would he still hold the same place in history?
His grandfather (Walter's dad) was Russian I believe. With a name like Gretzky that isnt from Saskatoon either.
But if Gretzky was Russian you'd have to think he'd replace Larionov on the KLM line. Can you imagine him centering Krutov and Makarov? Wow.
But you are changing the history of his career. You cannot hypothetically change the nationality of a 1961-born player without changing the other factors. Bottom line: Gretzky, born in 1961, does not come over until he's 28. Therefore, he doesn't play on those great Oiler teams, he doesn't win four Cups and two Conn Smythes, and he doesn't set all the single-season (regular season and playoffs) and career records. Period. And therefore, his jersey doesn't get retired league-wide, since he doesn't accomplish all that he accomplished.I thought this was about if we only changed his nationality, not the history of his career. (not stating it is, I'm not sure what the thread author meant)
I firmly believe that the NHL wouldn't have allowed a Russian born player (or even a European born player) to be the first one to have his jersey retired league wide, especially since Orr didn't get his retired throughout the league. Doesn't this make sense, even to you Cyclops?
I think there's a lot of sense in asking this question.
Since this is purely a hypothetical scenario, aren't we able to suppose that Gretzky were able to play in the NHL and have the exact same career as he had with the only change in his life being that he was born and grew up in Russia?But you are changing the history of his career. You cannot hypothetically change the nationality of a 1961-born player without changing the other factors. Bottom line: Gretzky, born in 1961, does not come over until he's 28. Therefore, he doesn't play on those great Oiler teams, he doesn't win four Cups and two Conn Smythes, and he doesn't set all the single-season (regular season and playoffs) and career records. Period. And therefore, his jersey doesn't get retired league-wide, since he doesn't accomplish all that he accomplished.
Now, you can argue how different his career would be after he came over in 1989. He probably has a one-year adjustment period to life and hockey in North America, unless he's like Makarov and lucky enough to wind up on a successful, veteran-laden club like Calgary. He probably doesn't win the Art Ross in 1989-90. After that, who knows. Does he get hit from behind by Gary Suter in the 1991 Canada Cup? He doesn't have the wear and tear on his body from all those Cup runs in Edmonton, so maybe he plays beyond the 1999 season. And if he's Russian, does he put the same emphasis on the Stanley Cup? In the end, careers and legacies are formed based on how players do in the post-season. Gretzky could set all the records he wants, nobody would mention him as the best ever if he didn't win four Cups and dominate several other playoffs.
Maybe, if he was Russian, he would have grown up idolizing Kharlamov or Firsov instead of Howe. Therefore, he doesn't wear 9 during his minor hockey days, he doesn't switch to 99 in his junior days (he only switched to 99 because a teammate in Sault Ste. Marie wouldn't let Gretzky have 9). Maybe he wears 17 for Kharlamov (or 71 after the number was retired) or whatever number Firsov wore. Do you think the league would have retired No. 9 if that was Gretzky's number? No. They did it because there truly is only one #99.
But you are changing the history of his career. You cannot hypothetically change the nationality of a 1961-born player without changing the other factors. Bottom line: Gretzky, born in 1961, does not come over until he's 28. Therefore, he doesn't play on those great Oiler teams, he doesn't win four Cups and two Conn Smythes, and he doesn't set all the single-season (regular season and playoffs) and career records. Period. And therefore, his jersey doesn't get retired league-wide, since he doesn't accomplish all that he accomplished.
I thought this was about if we only changed his nationality, not the history of his career. (not stating it is, I'm not sure what the thread author meant)
I firmly believe that the NHL wouldn't have allowed a Russian born player (or even a European born player) to be the first one to have his jersey retired league wide, especially since Orr didn't get his retired throughout the league. Doesn't this make sense, even to you Cyclops?
I think there's a lot of sense in asking this question.
Exactly, and that's why we're supposing that he is russian in a purely hypothetical scenario to discuss "what if?". I don't see what's wrong with that, I think it's a very valid question to ask, since I'm sure a lot of things would've been different. Just don't post if you don't want to discuss it, there's a few people here who do.What sense is it supposed to make xplo? there is no Russian player ever in that type of ballpark over here in this league so why even bother asking it? This is supposed to make sense to me other then an invitation for two sides to line up and throw some verbal stones at each other?
Is jean beliveau a hero to long time followers whose interest is mainly the Russian league?
Why bother to ask,there is no Russian comparison in the nhl for Wayne Gretzky,that's just the way it is.
I recognise the sense it makes to you and how you would "get off on it" being asked,we all know what side of the fence you sit on.But make sense to me?.............no.
Exactly, and that's why we're supposing that he is russian in a purely hypothetical scenario to discuss "what if"? I don't see what's wrong with that, I think it's a very valid question to ask, since I'm sure a lot of things would've been different. Just don't post if you don't want to discuss it, there's a few people here who do.
Again you're changing other factors. Why not just stick with that everything is the same except his nationality?Question: If Gretzky grew up in Russia, would he have worn 99? Highly unlikely. He only wore 99 because he couldn't wear 9. (His coach, Murray "Muzz" MacPherson, told Wayne, when he gave him 99 in the Soo, that since Wayne couldn't wear one 9, he could wear two). Does he want 9 so bad if he's growing up in Russia? Probably not, unless the Gordie Howe of Russian hockey wore 9.
So you do believe that it would've been retired even if he was Russian?The reason it's retired league-wide is because it's 99. Maybe if Gretzky wore 4 or 9, they might have retired it league-wide as well, simply because of all the greats who wore 4 and 9. But if Wayne wore 12 or 18 or 22 or 27, it would not have been retired league-wide. Because it's such a unique number in the history of the game, and it was worn by the player who had arguably the greatest career in NHL history, and likely had the biggest off-ice impact of any player in NHL history, that's why it's retired.
No I generally don't like your posts since we have very different views on hockey culture & history. But it would be pretty useless to have a forum in which every member has the same views on everything, don't you think? What I'm questioning is why you're even posting here since you don't want to take part in what the thread is about (hypothetically supposing that Gretzky is Russian).I'm sure you would,though i doubt you would find any talk the other way around quite so valid.
And i do want to dicuss it,if i did'nt i would'nt be posting on it.If you don't like what i have to say about it..........don't read my posts on it.Clearly you have'nt been crazy about them so far so why bother?
I disagree.That's my point,it's an invitation for a fight.........not much else.
I don't want Gretzky to be Russian. Who's "their"? We're talking about Gretzky here. As I've said, since there is no Russian player to compare with this is purely hypothetical.i can't help it he's not Russian like you want him to be.The league has never had a Russian player in his ballpark,why retire their numbers league wide?
He's Wayne gretzky,the most visable and biggest star the game has probably ever seen.If the league wants to honour him,don't be surprised.
He would have been in a Soviet system that stifled creativity and may have not had the freedom to develop his game as it ended up.
Actually, I think that his ancestors were from eastern Europe somewhere.
Again you're changing other factors. Why not just stick with that everything is the same except his nationality?
So you do believe that it would've been retired even if he was Russian?
No I generally don't like your posts since we have very different views on hockey culture & history. But it would be pretty useless to have a forum in which every member has the same views on everything, don't you think? What I'm questioning is why you're even posting here since you don't want to take part in what the thread is about (hypothetically supposing that Gretzky is Russian).
I disagree.
I don't want Gretzky to be Russian. Who's "their"? We're talking about Gretzky here. As I've said, since there is no Russian player to compare with this is purely hypothetical.