If the Red Wings miss the playoffs will you blame Ken Holland?

[doakacola*]

Of course I will blame him. Not for the trade deadline but for the past 4 years where he has acquired every GARBAGE 4th liner in the NHL. He has been lucky our defense has held up somewhat this year but our forwards blow. Giving Bertuzzi a 2 year extension last year was LOL. Eaves, Miller, Abdelkader, Tootoo, Emmerton, Mursack, Samuelson... Enough said.

Want to give an outsiders perspective. I'm a Boston native and B 's fan. I've watched the RW though since I live Datsyuk. You haven't been able to overcome the losses of Lidstrom, Rafalski and Stuart.

Couple that with injuries and it looks like no PO.

Abdelkader IMO has been a good player for you. More a 7-9 forward but he has by no means embarrassed himself or the DRW. He outperformed Milan Lucic...haha.

 

[Henkka]

Want to give an outsiders perspective. I'm a Boston native and B 's fan. I've watched the RW though since I live Datsyuk. You haven't been able to overcome the losses of Lidstrom, Rafalski and Stuart.

Couple that with injuries and it looks like no PO.

But.. as an outsider.. will you see this as good or disaster result? I just think that many other organizations would have fallen a lot deeper, to 14-15th positions on standings when losing "lidström + stuart" and having this amout of injuries.

 

[doakacola*]

And you refuse to acknowledge that 4 years of going backwards is more than just bad luck.

If Holland just hit a year or two of missing out on improving the team, he has earned that leeway no problem. But 4, going on 5 seasons, of adding nothing but plugs? That would lose a GM their job 9 times out of 10.

Yeah? Explain a GM like Feaster? How long did it take Howsen to get canned? Holland made mistakes but with the cap its inevitable. Look how NYR and Philly have struggled.
Holland has a Cup in the cap era. He 's made mistakes every GM in his job long enough will make.

 

[doakacola*]

But.. as an outsider.. will you see this as good or disaster result? I just think that many other organizations would have fallen a lot deeper, to 14-15th positions on standings when losing "lidström + stuart" and having this amout of injuries.

Its never a bad thing to make the PO. So if they finish 8th and make it Holland did his job. They
are at the end of an extended run as a Cup contender. Now its time to see Hollands true abilities.
Most GM will do whet Holland has done. Your asking for trouble tanning or doing a massive overhaul.

 

[GT500x]

But.. as an outsider.. will you see this as good or disaster result? I just think that many other organizations would have fallen a lot deeper, to 14-15th positions on standings when losing "lidström + stuart" and having this amout of injuries.

First of all, asking an outsider to assess our team -- knowing that they aren't likely to have to information we have -- won't get you a good answer. Secondly, you don't know that a team that loses a #1 Dman will suddenly start bottom dwelling, because that's what you're suggesting given that there isn't much further to fall before we join Calgary and Edmonton. And those injuries have been to players that are good but not great and can be replaced so let's not overplay the injury card.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Want to give an outsiders perspective. I'm a Boston native and B 's fan. I've watched the RW though since I live Datsyuk. You haven't been able to overcome the losses of Lidstrom, Rafalski and Stuart.

Couple that with injuries and it looks like no PO.

Abdelkader IMO has been a good player for you. More a 7-9 forward but he has by no means embarrassed himself or the DRW. He outperformed Milan Lucic...haha.

First and foremost I don't think many of us are calling for Holland to be fired. We are simply judging him based on his stated goal of making the playoffs. We are in an unusual position of fighting for a playoff spot. We've lost some NHL players to injury but thankfully we haven't lost vital players like Pavel Datsyuk, Hank Zetterberg and Jimmy Howard. If we lost any of those guys it would be GAME OVER.

It's pretty clear we could have acquired Jay Bouwmeester if we were willing to deal a 1st round pick in 2014. That in turn would have bolstered our playoff run and would have given us a top pairing d-man that would allow Kronwall to return to his best spot: #3 d-man.

Tomas Tatar is second to Pavel Datsyuk in points per 60 mins in even strength play. Why isn't he in Detroit? That's Ken Holland's decision.

So while I don't think Holland will or should be fired, I think it's very defensible to question many of the moves he's made over the last year. The salary cap seems to have caused him to become incredibly conservative and it could cost the team their playoff streak.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Wow.
You're idea of defending Holland is to discredit Bowman?

No but I will always credit a GM over a coach in any sport period. Coaches can be important but it is more about timing often times and also at a certain point they should move on. Bowman was a miserable GM in Buffalo, really the only time he had full autonomy in his entire career. Yet he gets credit for almost all of the first two cups in the modern era around here, it is just odd to me. So Bowman was so responsible for the first one that they stripped him of the shared GM powers and gave them outright to Holland, just doesn't scan for me.

Bowman is the greatest coach maybe in the history of sports, certainly in hockey, either him or Arbour and Blake but I take Bowman. In any event that doesn't mean that I credit him over Holland for the success of this team like some people do. If Bowman had full charge of this team Yzerman would have been shipped.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

There is no outcome at the end of a season that is good besides winning the Stanley Cup. Every other outcome has to be seen within the context of whether it gets you closer to winning a Cup or not. In other words, it's a matter of the mid- to long-term strategy that is employed.

If you have the choice between #8 and #9 and making the playoffs and not making them you will pick the former option of course. But that's not the decisive factor, nobody plans - or should plan - to be in that position in a strategic sense because neither one is very good.

Roster moves made to "slip" into the playoffs are among the cardinal errors in franchise management. They indicate that a GM works to stay in his job rather than to maximize the franchise's long-term success. Holland avoided that mistake when he didn't trade away a high pick or high-value prospects for Bouwmeester. But at the same time, a roster of veterans was maintained and with Samuelsson and Colaiacovo two mid-level veterans of dubious value were signed. Moves that made little sense after failing to sign elite free agents - unless you wanted to make sure the Wings at least "stay competitive" in the short term.

But that is short-term thinking to the detriment of the long-term outlook. You give less time and space to prospects and you make sure your draft picks are worse going in one direction. And you waste the last years of Datsyuk and Zetterberg's careers on mediocre teams rather than either "going all out" to make a last ditch attempt to win a Cup - short-term thinking but at least short-term thinking that *is* justified if you do win the Cup - or trading them to maximize assets.

Holland's moves make sense only if you believe (a) the current roster is good enough to contend (b) you believe the players to form a Cup contender in the next 3-4 years are already on the roster or in the organizattion - both assumptions unlikely to turn out to be true. If this "bet" fails the Wings will pay with years of mediocrity and perhaps a decade or longer of irrelevance.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Tomas Tatar is second to Pavel Datsyuk in points per 60 mins in even strength play. Why isn't he in Detroit? That's Ken Holland's decision.

Do you not think that Babcock is a big factor in him being sent up or down? If the kid isn't going to get any playing time Holland isn't going to have him rot in the press box.

 

[GT500x]

Do you not think that Babcock is a big factor in him being sent up or down? If the kid isn't going to get any playing time Holland isn't going to have him rot in the press box.

There was no reason to believe Tatar would find himself in the pressbox. If Tatar was up with the team right now, I believe he would have gotten a shot on the 2nd or 1rst line at some point because the lines have been changed many times over. I simply can't fathom Babcock healthy scratching Tatar the way he was playing, and that makes the decision that someone made to send him down very odd.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

There was no reason to believe Tatar would find himself in the pressbox. If Tatar was up with the team right now, I believe he would have gotten a shot on the 2nd or 1rst line at some point because the lines have been changed many times over. I simply can't fathom Babcock healthy scratching Tatar the way he was playing, and that makes the decision that someone made to send him down very odd.

They decide together who is going up and down. They talk about it a great deal, there is some friction at times, but guess what Tatar isn't one of those cases. Babcock hasn't even hinted that he is unhappy about it, hell he barely played him when he was at his disposal.

 

[pdd]

Hudler's team is failing pretty miserably.

Yeah. With all of that elite talent they have. You do realize that after the Bouwmeester trade that Hudler immediately became the best player on the team, and that going into the trade teadline Hudler was the best forward on the team this season, including Iginla, right?

Oh, I bet you haven't watched a Flames game.

You probably also haven't seen how badly outplayed Kiprusoff has been by Joey MacDonald (who I would have rather waived Gustavsson to keep). And there are people who still call him an elite goalie.

Hudler was not worth 4 million dollars and I like Hudler.

You'll be disappointed when Holland either a) signs Filppula for $5+ or b) signs another top-sixer for $5+. Hudler is a first-line forward who wanted to play for the Wings. He's not a Red Wing because Holland didn't want to give him the same kind of cap hit FRANZEN has. Even though Hudler outplayed Franzen last season and was one of four forwards who were useful in any capacity in the playoffs.

He doesn't dictate outcomes in games very often, his connection with Filppula would help though.

Hudler is the best player on the Flames and has come up absolutely clutch for them many times.

They also could have used Helm, Bertuzzi and Sammy, but they all missed most of the season.

We might have scored more goals and won more games with a healthy Hudler, but we'd be in worse shape going forward with his contract.

Because we could instead sign an equal player for $5.5m this offseason?

Not re-signing Hudler was one of the few good moves/non-moves Holland has made recently. No way in hell do I wish we kept him with Tatar and Nyquist looking as good as they do.

And why not have all of them? Especially as it's looking less and less likely that Filppula returns, despite the fact that his peak scoring season seems to have been a fluke.

Nyquist/Zetterberg/Brunner
Franzen/Datsyuk/Hudler
Tatar/Helm/Abdelkader
Emmerton/Andersson/Tootoo
Eaves

Not a chance. Brunner is loads faster and still has a pretty good shoot first mentality. Give him a full season. This team lacks a shoot first guy. Even Franzen dishes it off too readily when he has lanes. Datsyuk, Filp, Nyquist. All prefer to pass. Z takes shots but his shot is kinda meh.

Hudler was asked to play the shooter role on the FZH line. He proceeded to score 23 even strength goals last season with under 14 ES minutes per game. Did you forget that?

Brunner is what this team needs more of. Shooters. Hudler was no shooter.

Hudler has a better shot than Brunner; he just has other abilities as well and is capable of using them. Brunner is "skate-shoot-did it go in?"

I hear you, and I'd rather have Brunner on this team (at a reasonable salary) than Hudler. But Huds is currently the better player, that's all I'm saying. Hudler's play-making ability is way beyond Brunner's at this point.

You do realize that Brunner is only two years younger than Hudler, right? It's ot like you're getting some skilled scoring prospect like Nyquist. He's hitting his prime now. Brunner is basically as good as he's going to get. And he's not anywhere close to Hudler; Hudler has he same kind of goal-scoring ability and is well above Brunner in other areas; playmaking, hockey iq, versatility, and defense.

I'll take a healthy Samuelsson 100 times out of 100... and twice on Sunday and four times on Tuesday!

Samuelsson is a 6'2 right handed shooter that can skate and had put up 30 goals just a few years ago and is BEAST in the playoffs compared to 5'8 Hudler that skates like he is stuck in the mud

Yet he is still on pace for almost 60 points this season, is Calgary's best player, has been their best forward all season, and was the Wings' best goal scorer at even strength by a solid margin last season

and get's abused on every shift like a rag doll in the playoffs. The choice was simple.

Hudler was one of only four effective forwards against Nashville. Franzen? Filppula? Bertuzzi? Where were they? Certainly not winning games for the Wings. I guess it doesn't matter because Babcock and Holland like them. Winning<coach's favorite players.

I guess not much, there is the crowd that likes to pretend Bowman was the real GM of his first cup, he lucked into a big spending budget for the first three. Jim Nill and the scouts particularly Andersson

Rockstrom, actually. The 1989 draft Euros were Christer Rockstrom; Andersson came later.

 

[GT500x]

They decide together who is going up and down. They talk about it a great deal, there is some friction at times, but guess what Tatar isn't one of those cases. Babcock hasn't even hinted that he is unhappy about it, hell he barely played him when he was at his disposal.

Babcock said good things about Tatar and wasn't so enthusiastic about Nyquist. And if Tatar had stayed on the team, it's likely that he would have continued playing the minutes he was playing but I doubt that he would have sat in the pressbox. I don't know how much input he had into Tatar going down but that has little to do with my point -- whether it was Babcock, Holland, or both their decisions it was still a head scratcher due to the reasons I gave.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Of forwards who have played more than 20 games for Flames (10 total), Hulder faces 6th toughest competition per Corsi.

GF/on is 4th highest, GA/on is the worst. Relative Corsi is -0.1.

 

[dtones520]

Yes, but not because we weren't active at the deadline. More so because guys like Tatar and Nyquist weren't in the lineup all year. And I know I was one who said they weren't ready and was backing the decision to keep them in the AHL originally, but their play has earned them a spot on this team. Put them on a line with Andersson and you have a fast skilled line that can score goals with a defensive minded center.

We could have lines of
Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Abdelkader
Filppula-Franzen-Brunner
Tatar-Andersson-Nyquist
Miller-Emmerton-Tootoo/Eaves

Cleary can sit for all I care, he is useless. He is slow, he can't score, he doesn't set up goals. I don't get why he is still in.

But, I will commend Holland for not caving and give up our first. He was aggressive at the deadline offering prospects, but wouldn't part with the first. Now that we didn't do anything, we still have a good shot of getting in and haven't given up any of our top prospects. Honestly, I'll be pleased with this season if we get in as the 8th seed. That's about what I expected from this bunch coming in. Had we not had the injuries to Helm and Bertuzzi we would have easily made the playoffs. And had we not had the rash of other injuries to start the year we would have easily made it. Babcock has done a good job of getting the most out of this team. They just need to figure out how to put picks in the net.

As for this offseason, we need a goal scorer. Plain and simple. We don't have any true goal scorers in our system that are ready for the NHL, so get that. We could use a top end defenseman, but I'm not sure there is anyone out there. Maybe deal for Yandle if they can.

I will also say this, people on here act like Holland hasn't tried. He made solid offers for guys like Nash and Bouwmeester in trades, I'm guessing they offered something competitive for Yandle at the draft. They were aggressive with trying to sign Suter. They didn't over pay for overrated guys like Carle and he has not thrown away our top prospects or picks for rental players. So, while we are in a rough patch now, we have things to build on. It's just too bad we don't have a legit goal scorer or a number one d-man in our system.

 

[InjuredChoker]

I will also say this, people on here act like Holland hasn't tried. He made solid offers for guys like Nash and Bouwmeester in trades, I'm guessing they offered something competitive for Yandle at the draft. They were aggressive with trying to sign Suter. They didn't over pay for overrated guys like Carle and he has not thrown away our top prospects or picks for rental players. So, while we are in a rough patch now, we have things to build on. It's just too bad we don't have a legit goal scorer or a number one d-man in our system.

Yeah but then he could have traded White, Cleary and Flip if he isn't re-signed. And get some assets. Those guys could have gotten around 3/4th for first two and 2nd plus mid prospect or late first for Flip. It would have been something.

 

[GT500x]

I will also say this, people on here act like Holland hasn't tried.

This is an over simplification and a misrepresentation of what "people" are acting like. The sad thing is that I see it on other sites so much and I hear it on the radio. There is a break down in understanding that leads to sides not being able to find common ground.

I don't know of anyone here who has said that Holland hasn't "tried" to do anything. The complaints I see are about his lack of results, the decisions that he has made, and the apparent lack of a direction. That's not to say that those complaints are accurate; I'm only telling you what I've seen vs what you said.

 

[Bench]

There is a break down in understanding that leads to sides not being able to find common ground.

 

[PullHard]

Bench is easily the best Wings poster

 

[DarkReign]

Bench is easily the best Wings poster

While Bench is certainly entertaining, being type-cast as Switzerland has its pitfalls.