If our scouts are so good...

slamigo

Skate or Die!
Dec 25, 2007
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Ottawa
Also, the Observer effect. The moment our team reaches out to another team to ask about a player, that player becomes more valuable to its current team. It raises a positive uncertainty about that player's potential and messes up the trade.

So the secret is to contact a team and ask about a different player, then negotiate downwards to the player you actually want. Science.
 

Holdurbreathe

Registered User
Jun 22, 2006
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Ontario
That's more on Murray than the scouting staff. The scouting staffs job is to scout players, not make trades or even suggest players unless they're being asked to give an opinion. They just file in their reports and it's up to Lee who's in charge of the player development and Dorion to look at those and make recommendations to Murray. Then comes the complications of making a trade like NMC, interest to trade a certain player, is there a match between teams to do a trade and etc..

Unless Murray, Dorion(who was a scout himself) come out and say hey we want a defensemen right now find us something interesting then there's not really much they can do.

We have one of the top 5 scouting in the NHL, if theres one thing keeping us alive it's certainly scouting being a budget team.

Excuse me, do you honestly think these scouts go and watch 100s of games and don't provide any input unless asked?

Scouts are paid to evaluate and report on talent and offer opinions, and it is highly likely their recommendations could trigger trade discussions.

Bryan has basically allowed Pierre (past T.Murray) to run the scouting department, build out the draft potentials/order and allows them to execute their plan.

Example, Bryan traded up to get Karlsson on the recommendations of his scouting department, not his knowledge of the player.

The pro-scouts job is more difficult because it is a function to a larger extent by specific needs/requirements, not only by their GM but by the any GM that engages Bryan in potential trade discussions.

While the draft is controlled only by order and availablity at a point in time, trades are controlled by the bartering system.

In trades a GM has to give to get and sometimes that doesn't always work out as planned for a myriad of reasons, just like the draft.

So if you think Murray's pro trades have been failures, Tim and Pierre likely share most of the responsibility. Of course likewise if the trade is a success.

What BM likely does is set the criteria for the type of team he wishes to have and the type of player that suits the vision and the players he may like to upgrade.

Of course a GM always has the right to disregard or veto recommendations from his staff, however if BM was acting in that fashion regularly I doubt he would have people that stay with him as they have.

As far as Randy Lee involvement, I would think given his responsibilities his involvement in trade discussions would be in regards to any potential impact to the organization's depth chart and any risks that may present.
 
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Real Smart Sens Fan

Registered User
Jun 14, 2014
4,760
4
Why can't they find some diamonds in the ruff on other teams? Maybe just good players you could fit seamlessly into our system?

The coach has to play players out of position. Management can't even call up players because there is no one left.

We have so much wasted money on players who just don't fit.

Every game we see the same problems and Murray continues to say he's looking but it's tough.

Like Turris, Methot, Anderson and MacArthur?

Yawn.

Why is it that the people with the least understanding have the most words?

"IF CHICKEN IS DELICIOUS AND GOOD FOR YOU, THEN WHY IS THERE STILL WORLD HUNGER???" literally how ridiculous you sound, except there might be more logic in my facetious example than in your "serious" one.
 

tony d

New poll series coming from me on June 3
Jun 23, 2007
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It'd be ice to get a few diamonds in the rough from other teams but our scouting isn't that bad.
 

Burrowsaurus

Registered User
Mar 20, 2013
42,486
16,101
Like Turris, Methot, Anderson and MacArthur?

Yawn.

Why is it that the people with the least understanding have the most words?

"IF CHICKEN IS DELICIOUS AND GOOD FOR YOU, THEN WHY IS THERE STILL WORLD HUNGER???" literally how ridiculous you sound, except there might be more logic in my facetious example than in your "serious" one.

Man thank you for value added by this post. What would it be without this.
 

Ice-Tray

Registered User
Jan 31, 2006
16,380
8,181
Victoria
Also, the Observer effect. The moment our team reaches out to another team to ask about a player, that player becomes more valuable to its current team. It raises a positive uncertainty about that player's potential and messes up the trade.

So the secret is to contact a team and ask about a different player, then negotiate downwards to the player you actually want. Science.

Exactly, when the talks are going nowhere you get all exasperated and suggest some "random" to get the friggin deal done.... ;)
 

Ice-Tray

Registered User
Jan 31, 2006
16,380
8,181
Victoria
Excuse me, do you honestly think these scouts go and watch 100s of games and don't provide any input unless asked?

Scouts are paid to evaluate and report on talent and offer opinions, and it is highly likely their recommendations could trigger trade discussions.

Bryan has basically allowed Pierre (past T.Murray) to run the scouting department, build out the draft potentials/order and allows them to execute their plan.

Example, Bryan traded up to get Karlsson on the recommendations of his scouting department, not his knowledge of the player.

The pro-scouts job is more difficult because it is a function to a larger extent by specific needs/requirements, not only by their GM but by the any GM that engages Bryan in potential trade discussions.

While the draft is controlled only by order and availablity at a point in time, trades are controlled by the bartering system.

In trades a GM has to give to get and sometimes that doesn't always work out as planned for a myriad of reasons, just like the draft.

So if you think Murray's pro trades have been failures, Tim and Pierre likely share most of the responsibility. Of course likewise if the trade is a success.

What BM likely does is set the criteria for the type of team he wishes to have and the type of player that suits the vision and the players he may like to upgrade.

Of course a GM always has the right to disregard or veto recommendations from his staff, however if BM was acting in that fashion regularly I doubt he would have people that stay with him as they have.

As far as Randy Lee involvement, I would think given his responsibilities his involvement in trade discussions would be in regards to any potential impact to the organization's depth chart and any risks that may present.

The greatest strengths of a leader is to inspire, and to be able to delegate responsibility to those best suited to take on the tasks. This goes for the military, and business alike.

In other instances the man at the top would get praise as well as criticism, and yet many here like to criticize the top man, and then attribute the praise to those he delegated responsibilities to.

In sum, the man is an excellent manager. The best ever? No, but excellent at the job :)
 

Stylizer1

SENSimillanaire
Jun 12, 2009
19,307
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Ottabot City
Like Turris, Methot, Anderson and MacArthur?

Yawn.

Why is it that the people with the least understanding have the most words?

"IF CHICKEN IS DELICIOUS AND GOOD FOR YOU, THEN WHY IS THERE STILL WORLD HUNGER???" literally how ridiculous you sound, except there might be more logic in my facetious example than in your "serious" one.
4 years ago those were some great acquisitions.
 

Mercurial

#lalala
Oct 29, 2009
2,232
0
Read an article a while back, where the author just auto picked the best player available in the first round from central scouting. Somewhat mimicing no amateur scouts. He did it for each team in the league. We had some nice picks, certainly not overall worse, no EK though.
 

Stylizer1

SENSimillanaire
Jun 12, 2009
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Ottabot City
Man, I really hope we get to face the Rangers again in the playoffs this year.

We almost beat them 4 years so we should be due.
 

umma gumma

Registered User
Apr 8, 2005
3,632
2,159
4 years ago those were some great acquisitions.

You expect them to find a diamond every year?? No wonder you're disappointed.

Like Turris, Methot, Anderson and MacArthur?

Yawn.

Why is it that the people with the least understanding have the most words?

"IF CHICKEN IS DELICIOUS AND GOOD FOR YOU, THEN WHY IS THERE STILL WORLD HUNGER???" literally how ridiculous you sound, except there might be more logic in my facetious example than in your "serious" one.
Well, Ryan's making it difficult to dump on him anymore, got to dump on someone. These types are always 'dumping' because they're full of it.
 

Real Smart Sens Fan

Registered User
Jun 14, 2014
4,760
4
You expect them to find a diamond every year?? No wonder you're disappointed.


Well, Ryan's making it difficult to dump on him anymore, got to dump on someone. These types are always 'dumping' because they're full of it.

Oh yeah. And Ryan. Can't believe I forgot about that.

Anderson - 2011

Turris - 2012

Methot - 2012

MacArthur - 2013

Ryan - 2013

Past two years have been dry because... gasp.... we're going through a transitional period - where we are one of the youngest teams in the league, yet still good enough that we can compete for the playoffs. Seems like we're taking a patient approach, rather than a reactionary, impulsive, impatient approach.

Oh wait, now I get why some posters are so salty...
 

Knave

Registered User
Mar 6, 2007
21,649
2,238
Ottawa
Who is saying they're doing a bad job?

Teams try to hang on to their best players and prospects. You're left sorting through the rest and trying to find the best of the rest that they are willing to trade to you.
You can't just handpick players in trades. The other team is going to say "no way".
 

BonkTastic

ಠ_ಠ
Nov 9, 2010
30,901
10,092
Parts Unknown
Man, I really hope we get to face the Rangers again in the playoffs this year.

We almost beat them 4 years so we should be due.

If you think it's such a common thing, go and find me five NHL GMs that make a Turris-level steal of a trade every year or two.

I mean, the way you're talking, there must be a bunch of NHL GMs out there swinging these deals all the time. Who are they? Who are these descendents of King Midas bestowed upon the NHL?
 

Ice-Tray

Registered User
Jan 31, 2006
16,380
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Victoria
If you think it's such a common thing, go and find me five NHL GMs that make a Turris-level steal of a trade every year or two.

I mean, the way you're talking, there must be a bunch of NHL GMs out there swinging these deals all the time. Who are they? Who are these descendents of King Midas bestowed upon the NHL?

The Bobby Ryan was a pretty great deal for us, one of those quantity for quality trades where we got ourselves a young legit top line player.
 

Real Smart Sens Fan

Registered User
Jun 14, 2014
4,760
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If you think it's such a common thing, go and find me five NHL GMs that make a Turris-level steal of a trade every year or two.

I mean, the way you're talking, there must be a bunch of NHL GMs out there swinging these deals all the time. Who are they? Who are these descendents of King Midas bestowed upon the NHL?

If the original post used any facts or information, then no one would get whipped up into a hard-done-by frenzy - and then what good would it be?!
 

slamigo

Skate or Die!
Dec 25, 2007
6,437
3,824
Ottawa
I don't think it's our scouting staff or even mgmt staff. The league has changed. Deals are not happening like they used to. It's a completely different landscape now.

Nobody is really dealing. Do all the teams suddenly not have good scouting and incompetent mgmt? Doubtful. The league appears to be adjusting to a new reality and a lot of teams are looking towards youth which IMHO means that they're all more focused on their own in house talent.
 

aragorn

Do The Right Thing
Aug 8, 2004
28,608
9,124
4 years ago those were some great acquisitions.

While it is becoming more & more difficult to make trades in the NHL with the exception of the trade deadline where playoff teams are acquiring veteran players for playoff runs. However, some teams are building from within as well & Ottawa is no exception which counters the argument that we are not getting better players each yr when we are, but sometimes they are from within instead.

What about the development of Hoffman (5th rd) & Stone (6th rd) who are now contributing at the NHl level & have become important top line players for Ottawa. Most recently Lazar seems to have all of the attributes of a good NHL player & I think he will continue to improve especially on offence. Wideman is another guy who was the best defenceman in the AHL last yr & has started to play consistently & seems to have a permanent position on the team now. Dzuizynski is another guy who looks like he can contribute to a bottom line role & there are probably a few more in the organization who are going to contribute to this team in future. We talk a lot about the guys who are having problems but sometimes forget there are a number of guys on this team who are playing very well. We have 3 guys in the top 20 in scoring in the NHL & Stone is 31st, when was the last time that happened?
 

HoweHullOrr

Registered User
Oct 3, 2013
11,628
2,233
Why can't they find some diamonds in the ruff on other teams? Maybe just good players you could fit seamlessly into our system?

The coach has to play players out of position. Management can't even call up players because there is no one left.

We have so much wasted money on players who just don't fit.

Every game we see the same problems and Murray continues to say he's looking but it's tough.

Yikes. Many obvious reasons but you are into the realm of trades now. It takes two parties to consummate a trade and no opposing GM is going to cough up assets without a reasonable/good return.

The volume of trades is way down. Its a league thing versus an individual team issue.
 

Stylizer1

SENSimillanaire
Jun 12, 2009
19,307
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Ottabot City
Yikes. Many obvious reasons but you are into the realm of trades now. It takes two parties to consummate a trade and no opposing GM is going to cough up assets without a reasonable/good return.

The volume of trades is way down. Its a league thing versus an individual team issue.
Understood. Murray and crew saw something in Turris that apparently Phoenix did not. When Murray brought in Kuba it wasn't for his amazing skill and turned out to be really good for Karlsson.

Scouts are looking for skill along with potential. No two people think alike so what one team might deem as borderline NHL worthy could be another teams blessing in disguise a la Chara from NYI.

We have 1 #1 Dman and a bunch of 4-5-6-7's in our line up. Methot is great with Karlsson but he is not a top 3 Dman on most teams. Playing with Karlsson.
 

Nac Mac Feegle

wee & free
Jun 10, 2011
34,919
9,332
I don't think it's our scouting staff or even mgmt staff. The league has changed. Deals are not happening like they used to. It's a completely different landscape now.

Nobody is really dealing. Do all the teams suddenly not have good scouting and incompetent mgmt? Doubtful. The league appears to be adjusting to a new reality and a lot of teams are looking towards youth which IMHO means that they're all more focused on their own in house talent.

Hard to make deals when any player worth trading for has NMCs or NTCs in their contract. Or backloaded/frontloaded contracts that screw around with the cap/finances of a team.

The NHL should've outlawed those types of additions to contracts in the last CBA. Or, at the very least, allow teams a max of one designated 'franchise' player per team with a NMC/NTC.

The expansion draft is going to be one hot mess with all these clauses.
 

Back in Black

All Sports would be great if they were Hockey
Jan 30, 2012
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In the Penalty Box
Trading for Bishop was a brilliant move, trading him wasn't so great but Conacher looked great at the time

The only bad one over the past couple of years was the Spezza trade, and Murray didn't have much of a choice.

Bishop for Conacher was the worst trade EVER! :rant:

Scouts have been doing a fine job of making Murray look good! :shakehead
 

Real Smart Sens Fan

Registered User
Jun 14, 2014
4,760
4
Bishop for Conacher was the worst trade EVER! :rant:

Scouts have been doing a fine job of making Murray look good! :shakehead

Murray was sold on Conacher by his pro scouts. Conacher is such a "not Murray" type of player... Murray had a deal for a 2nd + 4th, and took Conacher + 4th because his scouts thought he could be a top 6 fwd. As far as I'd remembered, Murray didn't know much about Conacher at all.

In that sense, Murray's strengths are the same as his weaknesses - he really lets his scouts scout. Sometimes it pays off fantastically (Karlsson is an obvious example) and sometimes it doesnt (Conacher is another obvious example - the 33rd pick in that draft would have added a pretty nice piece).
 

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