If I was the NHLPA....

[hockeytown9321]

Not quite true.

The average NHL ticket last year was $43.57 (see link below for ticket info)
(x 19,000 = $827,830 per game x 41 games = $33,941,030

The average NFL ticket is $54.75.
(x 70,000 = $3,832,500 x 8 = $30,660,000)

That's a $3.3 million difference in favor of the NHL. However, I would argue that the cost of operating a facility, albeit a smaller facility, for 41 games exceeds the cost of operating one for eight games. Add in the additional travel costs associated with the NHL (41 road games as opposed to eight), and that money's gone. Plus, unlike the most NFL teams, very few NHL teams rake in millions of dollars upfront from personal seat license fees.

Average ticket costs:
http://www.teammarketing.com/fci.cfm

your attendance numbers are a bit off. NHL average attendance last year was around 16,000. NFL average attendance last year was around 66,000. I'd imagine the NFL number won't change much this year.

 

[CarlRacki]

your attendance numbers are a bit off. NHL average attendance last year was around 16,000. NFL average attendance last year was around 66,000. I'd imagine the NFL number won't change much this year.

I was using the hypothetical attendance numbers provided by John.
Using your numbers would eliminate the supposed NHL ticket sales advantage.

NFL: 66,000 x $54.75 x 8 games = $28.9 million
NHL: 16,000 x $43.57 x 41 games = $28.6 million

 

[txomisc]

Not quite true.

The average NHL ticket last year was $43.57 (see link below for ticket info)
(x 19,000 = $827,830 per game x 41 games = $33,941,030

The average NFL ticket is $54.75.
(x 70,000 = $3,832,500 x 8 = $30,660,000)

That's a $3.3 million difference in favor of the NHL. However, I would argue that the cost of operating a facility, albeit a smaller facility, for 41 games exceeds the cost of operating one for eight games. Add in the additional travel costs associated with the NHL (41 road games as opposed to eight), and that money's gone. Plus, unlike the most NFL teams, very few NHL teams rake in millions of dollars upfront from personal seat license fees.

Average ticket costs:
http://www.teammarketing.com/fci.cfm

on top of this the nfl clearly brings a ton more in from this like jersey sales

 

[hockeytown9321]

I was using the hypothetical attendance numbers provided by John.
Using your numbers would eliminate the supposed NHL ticket sales advantage.

NFL: 66,000 x $54.75 x 8 games = $28.9 million
NHL: 16,000 x $43.57 x 41 games = $28.6 million

Whatever the revenues are, I really don't care. I do need to point out that there are at least twice as many preseason games in the NHL than the NFL, and a ton more playoff games.

I'm not arguing that the NHL should adopt the NFL's system, but alot of people are. I just wanted everyone to know exactly what that system is.

 

[Donnie D]

I was using the hypothetical attendance numbers provided by John.
Using your numbers would eliminate the supposed NHL ticket sales advantage.

NFL: 66,000 x $54.75 x 8 games = $28.9 million
NHL: 16,000 x $43.57 x 41 games = $28.6 million

Make the NFL times 10 games (8 regular season and 2 exhibition). You have to purchase the exhibition games at full price to have the opportunity to purchase a season ticket for the regular season.

 

[Hockeyfan02]

If I was the NHLPA I would accept the payroll ranges system right away, and thank Gary Bettman for being so kind as to allowing us to make a average salary of $1.3 Million a season and living a life of luxury. The NHL has been more then fair to these greedy people known as players, they are simply the worst athletes on any sports excluding baseball because thoose people are not athletes.

Just because they are fighting to keep their saleries the same doesnt make them greedy. Any union would be doing the exact same thing in this situation if a company tried to implement a system to keep wages the same or reduce them. The PA may lose the war, but they do have a purpose in fighting for it. I dont support either side, but I understand where both sides are coming from and know I would do the same thing in their situations. Whether its to keep my salary the same or make my buisness more profitiable.

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

The union should look at the number of businesses that have gone under becaise salaries were at a point where the business was unable to function effectively. Maybe the NHLPA should talk the employees of the airlines who went toes up. Maybe that jolt of realism will wake them up to the new economic realities in today's world. There is no shame in making millions of dollars a year. There is great shame in letting your pride get in the way from continuing to make millions of dollars a year.

 

[CarlRacki]

Just because they are fighting to keep their saleries the same doesnt make them greedy. Any union would be doing the exact same thing in this situation if a company tried to implement a system to keep wages the same or reduce them. The PA may lose the war, but they do have a purpose in fighting for it. I dont support either side, but I understand where both sides are coming from and know I would do the same thing in their situations. Whether its to keep my salary the same or make my buisness more profitiable.

I don't disagree that the NHLPA is doing what unions do. I have no problem with that and I don't believe the players are greedy. Stupid? Yes. Misguided? You bethca. Prone to diarrhea of the mouth? Absolutely. Greedy? Not really.

The problem I have with the union is their complete inability to see they are in a losing battle. Instead of reasonably going to the table with a cap system that would best serve the players' interests, the NHLPA seems to believe they can win if they just wait out the owners a little longer. Not gonna happen and the longer they wait to face the truth, the more fans, goodwill and money it's going to cost them.

 

[Gary]

I'd be like "yea we'll take a hard cap........BUT

1. it's gonna be a high cap say $50 mil maybe 60 tops.

2. We're gonna lower or even eliminate the salary rollback.

Would the owners bite???

Nothing will be solved until Bettman and Goodenow sit down and define what is and what is'nt revenue...until both understand and agree on the economics-No agreement of any kind will be reached. Goodenow says he don't trust Bettmans #'s and vice versa but how much time have they spent actually going through books and over #'s? Sometimes I feel like neither side is serious about ending this mess...The players and owners SHOULD BE putting tremendous pressure on both to sit down and come to a agreement on what is and is'nt revenue. This is just plain common sense but Bob and Gary are more interested in having pissing matches rather then addressing problems. They need to agree on BASIC issues before conquering large ones. Both are interested in getting a deal done without "appearing" to be losing face and with the hardlines they've taken it's impossible. The ONLY way around this I can personally see is if Gary where to come out with a statement as follows or along these lines: "The League stands firm that a cap is the only way to go while the NHLPA thinks a luxury tax will fix the problem. However, the one key sticking point has been their trust towards our numbers. I'm here to tell the media today that I have a open invitation to Bob to sit down and go over all the numbers and stats he wants. Maybe then he'd see things my way. Maybe not. Maybe he'll find issues that we may have overlooked or have not deemed as important as he might. I'm willing to try and patch up any trust issues we have." Then Bob could turn around and say something along the lines of "The numbers were alot worse then I first perceived but since Gary shed light on some of the issues we're convinced that a cap would be a viable solution to help both parties go strong into the future." What I'm talking about is a way to get back to the table under good pretenses and saving face at the same time here...

 

[struckmatch]

Nothing will be solved until Bettman and Goodenow sit down and define what is and what is'nt revenue...until both understand and agree on the economics-No agreement of any kind will be reached. Goodenow says he don't trust Bettmans #'s and vice versa but how much time have they spent actually going through books and over #'s? Sometimes I feel like neither side is serious about ending this mess...The players and owners SHOULD BE putting tremendous pressure on both to sit down and come to a agreement on what is and is'nt revenue. This is just plain common sense but Bob and Gary are more interested in having pissing matches rather then addressing problems. They need to agree on BASIC issues before conquering large ones. Both are interested in getting a deal done without "appearing" to be losing face and with the hardlines they've taken it's impossible. The ONLY way around this I can personally see is if Gary where to come out with a statement as follows or along these lines: "The League stands firm that a cap is the only way to go while the NHLPA thinks a luxury tax will fix the problem. However, the one key sticking point has been their trust towards our numbers. I'm here to tell the media today that I have a open invitation to Bob to sit down and go over all the numbers and stats he wants. Maybe then he'd see things my way. Maybe not. Maybe he'll find issues that we may have overlooked or have not deemed as important as he might. I'm willing to try and patch up any trust issues we have." Then Bob could turn around and say something along the lines of "The numbers were alot worse then I first perceived but since Gary shed light on some of the issues we're convinced that a cap would be a viable solution to help both parties go strong into the future." What I'm talking about is a way to get back to the table under good pretenses and saving face at the same time here...

They can agree on what is and isn't revenue because they did that for the World Cup of Hockey. That won't be difficult to define, the biggest hurdle is still the cost certainty roadblock.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

I'd be like "yea we'll take a hard cap........BUT

1. it's gonna be a high cap say $50 mil maybe 60 tops.

2. We're gonna lower or even eliminate the salary rollback.

Would the owners bite???

I think the owners would go without the rollback personally. The rollback is a sham and is utterly pointless. That's like me giving you a hundred bucks and then robbing you the next day.

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

Cap or no cap, the NHL will continue to have the best players in the world. The players will always go to where the money is, and unless things change beyond all imagination, that's always will be the NHL.
Keep in mind, even under the owners' current proposal the average NHL salary will be four to five times more than most Euro leagues pay their best players. Do you really think a third-line quality player from Finland is going to stay there for $200K a year when he can earn seven times that in the NHL?

We'll see, won't we.
I'm not sure the Fins and Swedes will ever compete with NHL salaries.
But something may be afoot in Russia.

And I'm not sure what's going to happen when Bettman closes the league down for the year.
Will the players go to the WHA, if there's a WHA.
Will the players start their own league?
I doubt it. But we're entering uncharted waters here. And more than any other pro athlete, I believe in the NHL players' resolve.

So we'll see.
It's quite clear that the owners are in a position of power and that they are using every ounce of it. I think that, eventually, the players will fold. What isn't clear is how much they'll give up. What isn't clear is when the players will fold. Or if fans will punish the NHL for scrapping a season or more.

If the NHL opens next year with a bettman power move - rosters full of ECHLers and other scabs wearing Original 6 jerseys - I might stop watching the NHL altogether.
Chances are, some NHLers will cross early and that the players will eventually cave in to save some semblance of a PA.
Still, I really wouldn't bet the farm against the players jumping to the WHA or starting their own league in such a case.

And it would be interesting to see what fans would watch.
Scrubs and scabs in NHL jerseys.
Or the best players in the world in other jerseys.
I mean, if you're ESPN, what would you air?
If you're CBC, what would you air?

The owners are gambling that the players will swallow their insulting proposal because it's still the best financial optiun. It's a good bet, I suppose.

But what happens to the hundreds of millions of dollars in equity the owners posses if the players go out and create a product 100 times better than what the NHL offers.

 

[Tekneek]

The NFL's is set at 64.75%, and will be 65.5% next year. If its good enough for them, how come its not good enough for hockey?

NFL does not have guaranteed contracts. If that is good enough for them, why is it not good enough for the NHLPA?

 

[MarkZackKarl]

The owners are gambling that the players will swallow their insulting proposal because it's still the best financial optiun. It's a good bet, I suppose.

Why are people so shortsighted? Its strange to think that the NHL, if there is a extended layoff period , wiill still have great revenue streams that are needed to offer this world best salaries...

What makes you think the players will "cave"? If they get a luxury tax system /soft cap system with revenue redistribution, pro-owners will say the players caved, but I will view it more of a compromise. What concessions can the owners make, really? Earlier UFA ages? Under a ridiculous cap systme that they proposed, the UFA age wouldnt matter really. It would just ruin the product for the fan. What other concessions can the owners make? Its ridiculous.

The players are the product, and the money will follow the players around, not the "NHL team names". Its ridiculous.

The teams are valuable and popular because they and the league house the best players in the world. How could the league survive without the best players?

THe Players wont cave ... The owners will eventually come off their hard cap stance and a deal will be made, but dont go around thinking that the players will bow down to the owners, and a commisioner who they hate, just to get money . I think hockey players have more integrity than that, at least for the most part. They are for the most part unselfish individuals, sacrificing their bodies to help the team win. Thats a great attitude, one that will be well served with regards to this lockout.

If they stay strong, they will win.

 

[Tekneek]

...if the players go out and create a product 100 times better than what the NHL offers.

I see little chance of that happening. There is a big gap between the highest paid players and the little guys. The median salary was several thousand dollars below the average salary. I don't see the big money guys pouring out the dollars to benefit the little guys. These players would have to accept all the risks that current NHL owners face. They stand to lose a whole lot more trying to make a startup pro league than they would by taking the NHL's current offer.

 

[CarlRacki]

We'll see, won't we.
I'm not sure the Fins and Swedes will ever compete with NHL salaries.
But something may be afoot in Russia.

And I'm not sure what's going to happen when Bettman closes the league down for the year.
Will the players go to the WHA, if there's a WHA.
Will the players start their own league?
I doubt it. But we're entering uncharted waters here. And more than any other pro athlete, I believe in the NHL players' resolve.

So we'll see.
It's quite clear that the owners are in a position of power and that they are using every ounce of it. I think that, eventually, the players will fold. What isn't clear is how much they'll give up. What isn't clear is when the players will fold. Or if fans will punish the NHL for scrapping a season or more.

If the NHL opens next year with a bettman power move - rosters full of ECHLers and other scabs wearing Original 6 jerseys - I might stop watching the NHL altogether.
Chances are, some NHLers will cross early and that the players will eventually cave in to save some semblance of a PA.
Still, I really wouldn't bet the farm against the players jumping to the WHA or starting their own league in such a case.

And it would be interesting to see what fans would watch.
Scrubs and scabs in NHL jerseys.
Or the best players in the world in other jerseys.
I mean, if you're ESPN, what would you air?
If you're CBC, what would you air?

The owners are gambling that the players will swallow their insulting proposal because it's still the best financial optiun. It's a good bet, I suppose.

But what happens to the hundreds of millions of dollars in equity the owners posses if the players go out and create a product 100 times better than what the NHL offers.

Stop with the WHA. The league's founders have already stated they will operate with a $10-$15 million cap. Does anybody in their right mind believe a majority of the world's best players will go for that while rejecting a $39 million cap from the NHL as an insult?
As for the players starting their own league, two words: "pipe" and "dream". Or how about these two: "no" and "chance". The players, to put it mildly, lack the financial resources to do it. Even if you convionced every NHL player to go along with this - which is very unlikely - they probably wouldn't have the startup costs available. Then there are issues surrounding where they would play. Forget most major arenas since most already are locked in with the NHL. Even if those items could be overcome - which is almost impossible - the time it would start to get this off the ground would be at least two years from its start, so figure the 2006-07 season at best, by which time most NHLPA will members will have cross back into the NHL.

 

[CarlRacki]

Why are people so shortsighted? Its strange to think that the NHL, if there is a extended layoff period , wiill still have great revenue streams that are needed to offer this world best salaries...

What makes you think the players will "cave"? If they get a luxury tax system /soft cap system with revenue redistribution, pro-owners will say the players caved, but I will view it more of a compromise. What concessions can the owners make, really? Earlier UFA ages? Under a ridiculous cap systme that they proposed, the UFA age wouldnt matter really. It would just ruin the product for the fan. What other concessions can the owners make? Its ridiculous.

The players are the product, and the money will follow the players around, not the "NHL team names". Its ridiculous.

The teams are valuable and popular because they and the league house the best players in the world. How could the league survive without the best players?

THe Players wont cave ... The owners will eventually come off their hard cap stance and a deal will be made, but dont go around thinking that the players will bow down to the owners, and a commisioner who they hate, just to get money . I think hockey players have more integrity than that, at least for the most part. They are for the most part unselfish individuals, sacrificing their bodies to help the team win. Thats a great attitude, one that will be well served with regards to this lockout.

If they stay strong, they will win.

I admire your idealistic beliefs about the players, though I tend to think they're more than a little misguided and border a little on hero worship. You're fooling yourelf if you believe NHL players sacrifice first and foremost for the team and out of unselfishness. They sacrifice because it brings them a great big paycheck every two weeks. I don't doubt that the great majority of them love the game, but it's the paycheck that keeps them in the weight rooms over the summer. It's the paycheck that puts them on the ice when they're injured. It's the paycheck that gets them to take a big hit in order to clear a puck or make a pass. If Peter Forsberg could make $10 million a year as a high school teacher and $50,000 as a professional hockey player, which would he choose? And just so we're clear, in my mind there's not a single thing wrong with the fact the players play for the money.

You're not correct about the money following the players around. The NHL and its teams are an established product that have built great amounts of customer loyalty. Overcoming that is not easy, as every other upstart professional league has learned (i.e. USFL, WHA, ABA, AFL). All of those leagues, to one degree or another, failed because they could not overcome the inherent advantages of the older, traditional league.

 

[MarkZackKarl]

Uh yeah , OK there, nice argument.

Seriously though, those upstart leagues were trying to come up WHILE the established league was playing and had the best players. If the NHL isn't playing, or doesnt have the best players, its pretty obvious that soon enough they will be done.

The NHL is a 2 billion dollar industry ONLY because of the fact that they boast the best players in the world.

The fan loyalty is established because it has been home to the 'epitome" of hockey excellence, (although the lack of Europeans in the 70s etc could make an argument that not all the best players were in the NHL).

If the NHL tries the scabs, its pretty obvious that in all but a handful of cities such as Toronto that not many people will go to games. If the owners have to lower their prices to 20 dollars a game, what pressure would be on the players to "cave'?

None.

 

[Hockeyfan02]

NFL does not have guaranteed contracts. If that is good enough for them, why is it not good enough for the NHLPA?

I highly doubt the owners would want to have players give huge signing bonuses like they do in the NFL.

 

[eye]

Part of my point.

the other part was illustrating what hypocrites alot of prople here are, becuase I've read more than once that if the NFL has a cap, why shouldn't hockey. All I did was point out the NFL's cap, and now suddenly, its not good enough for hockey.

NFL %'s reflect only player salaries and does not include other expenses such as medical, dental, pension, bonus money, per diem and many other player costs that the NHL want included in their deal to creat cost certainty.

Just the same if my company was making more money and my profits were up I could afford to pay my employees a greater % of profits. It's not as simple as you make it out to be. I'm still waiting for your answer to my question about the Red Wings having to make the 3rd round of the playoffs to break even. Do you really believe this is a smart or fair system to run a business? I wonder if you still had the Red Wings teams of the 70's and 80's if you would be so quick to support the players. You might actually be able to understand the rational behind creating more of a level playing field for all teams to have a chance to prosper which in turn would benefit the players in the long run.

 

[SuperUnknown]

The NHL is a 2 billion dollar industry ONLY because of the fact that they boast the best players in the world.

I will dispute that. The NHL is a 2 billion dollar industry because they boast the best players, but also because they have developed the hockey market in America, that they have the installations and capital required to feature the players adequately, because they give out the Stanley Cup and that they have many teams with a deep tradition. The NHL and its teams brand and marketing has a big part to play in being a 2 billion dollar industry.

 

[hockeytown9321]

NFL %'s reflect only player salaries and does not include other expenses such as medical, dental, pension, bonus money, per diem and many other player costs that the NHL want included in their deal to creat cost certainty.

When did Bettman say this?

It's not as simple as you make it out to be. I'm still waiting for your answer to my question about the Red Wings having to make the 3rd round of the playoffs to break even. Do you really believe this is a smart or fair system to run a business? I wonder if you still had the Red Wings teams of the 70's and 80's if you would be so quick to support the players. You might actually be able to understand the rational behind creating more of a level playing field for all teams to have a chance to prosper which in turn would benefit the players in the long run.

Actually, the Red Wings need 8 home playoff games to make a profit, less to break even. They made big profits in 2002 and before, which offset anything they've lost. And whatever they've lost the last two years is a choice that Mike Ilitch had to make. He knoew what could happen.

If I still had the Wings teams of the 70's, all I'd want is better ownership and better management. It was their own fault they were so bad, not Montreal or Philadelphia or Boston's. I certainly wouldn't ask 29 other teams to pay for my mistakes.

 

[hockeytown9321]

NFL does not have guaranteed contracts. If that is good enough for them, why is it not good enough for the NHLPA?

I don't care if NHL contracts are guaranteed or not. If this ends up with a cap, I hope they aren't. Siging bonuses would become as important as they are in football, and since my team is one of the few who could pay huge ones, they get an unfair advantage.

 

[CarlRacki]

I will dispute that. The NHL is a 2 billion dollar industry because they boast the best players, but also because they have developed the hockey market in America, that they have the installations and capital required to feature the players adequately, because they give out the Stanley Cup and that they have many teams with a deep tradition. The NHL and its teams brand and marketing has a big part to play in being a 2 billion dollar industry.

Someone who gets it.

 

[eye]

When did Bettman say this?



Actually, the Red Wings need 8 home playoff games to make a profit, less to break even. They made big profits in 2002 and before, which offset anything they've lost. And whatever they've lost the last two years is a choice that Mike Ilitch had to make. He knoew what could happen.

If I still had the Wings teams of the 70's, all I'd want is better ownership and better management. It was their own fault they were so bad, not Montreal or Philadelphia or Boston's. I certainly wouldn't ask 29 other teams to pay for my mistakes.

Well, I have heard your own VP interviewed several times and he says the Red Wings need to make the 3rd round each year just to break even. He totally supports a cap system and said the Red Wings can no longer afford to do business the way they have in the past few years. He said that most teams were holding on for the expiration of the old CBA hoping that a new economic system could save their franchises. Devalano also said that he supports a level playing field as a starting point for all teams as he believes it will make the NHL stronger than it's ever been and will benefit the players long term. Having to make the 3rd round to break even is not a system that is working. You have to acknowledge that fact.

How would you feel if the Red Wings could only afford a 30,000,000 payroll and not be able to sign any F/A's or resign it's current players. I think your view would be quite different although it would be easy to post here that it wouldn't bother you.