Post-Game Talk: Ice is fine, Wings not so much

[BinCookin]

TIL you have to have the 1OA to rebuild a roster.

You can try rebuilding it never getting the top pick like Columbus...


Here is some reading for you if you really want to get into it:


http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2103093

 

[Reddwit]

Ok first:

You cant compare Abby to 2 guys who are basically injured to the point they are "retired". Abdelkader at minimum is an actual roster player.

and second... Yup you just explained how you can trade these guys.

it is not IDEAL obviously. But a lot of these guys can be moved.

IF you think Abby can't me moved, fine, who cares? He stays on the team. He doesn't hurt a rebuild. Oh you think he will score too much and pull us out of the best picks? Or you tthink his Salary is going to stop us from what.... paying all those valuable ELC players we have?

LOL.

We trade just 1 of these guys, and it pays for the raise of everyone under 22.

Apparently you and I have a different definition of "valuable," then. Personally, I don't think paying $2M for the next 5+ players at the ripe offering of a 2nd round pick makes trading that player "valuable" to trade.

Same goes for Ericsson and Helm.

As for the rest of your argument, that's irrelevant to the point made. I actually do agree with the idea that having albatross contracts on the roster are irrelevant for the next few years if we're truly undertaking a rebuild - I've even made the argument that its a good thing, as it prevents Holland from making similar mistakes in the future that would prolong the problem - but that doesn't mean that they're terrible contracts to have the roster in almost all situations and that, even with retention, they are in no way "valuable."

 

[Reddwit]

You can try rebuilding it never getting the top pick like Columbus...


Here is some reading for you if you really want to get into it:


http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2103093

Oh, look! A solitary example! You've truly convinced me now!

P.S. Literally the second example on your list is of a team that didn't draft 1OA and has won multiple Cups.

Also, why are Carolina and Tampa not listed? Are they assumed excluded because they have never had to re-build but only had to build? As if building is somehow easier? Neither team drafted a 1OA before winning their first Cups. Neither did Detroit for that matter, post-80s. And Boston was 6 years removed from drafting JJ, who wasn't even a member of their Cup roster, so why is that a negative here? And Jersey didn't either, for that matter. So basically this is a Chicago/Pittsburgh summation.

 

[BinCookin]

Apparently you and I have a different definition of "valuable," then. Personally, I don't think paying $2M for the next 5+ players at the ripe offering of a 2nd round pick makes trading that player "valuable" to trade.

Same goes for Ericsson and Helm.

As for the rest of your argument, that's irrelevant to the point made. I actually do agree with the idea that having albatross contracts on the roster are irrelevant for the next few years if we're truly undertaking a rebuild - I've even made the argument that its a good thing, as it prevents Holland from making similar mistakes in the future that would prolong the problem - but that doesn't mean that they're terrible contracts to have the roster in almost all situations and that, even with retention, they are in no way "valuable."

We are splitting hairs then.

My main point is it doesn't stop us from rebuilding. We agree on that.

Talking at length about any ONE player's contract doesn't get us anywhere... But the idea that our "capped out" team this year can shed salary is easy. And next year we can shed salary... etc etc.

 

[BinCookin]

Oh, look! A solitary example! You've truly convinced me now!

P.S. Literally the second example on your list is of a team that didn't draft 1OA and has won multiple Cups.

are you purposely being obtuse?

Read the whole post.

And i would call superstar talents more like 1OA, 2OA and 3OA picks.

Find me a team that rebuilt QUICKLY without those... and then compare them to teams that didnt. There are many more examples which match not super high picks = slow rebuild.

 

[Reddwit]

are you purposely being obtuse?

Read the whole post.

And i would call superstar talents more like 1OA, 2OA and 3OA picks.

Find me a team that rebuilt QUICKLY without those... and then compare them to teams that didnt. There are many more examples which match not super high picks = slow rebuild.

Dude, are you purposely being obtuse? I responded to someone who claimed that a team needs - i.e. requires - a 1OA to rebuild. And in the past ~two decades, only two teams have. Sorry you have something rustling your jimmies, but follow the posts, man.

Define short term? Because I don't think people understand how long a rebuild could take. Colorado has basically been rebuilding since 2009. They're probably looking at another rebuild. With the added lottery system it could be a long, long time before this team is ever good again. Not only do you have to win the lottery, but you also hope the guy you draft is a generational player. Rebuilding should be your last resort. When you've run out of options. Seems like that is where the Red Wings are right now.

This is the post I responded to.

That means winning the #1 pick of the entire draft. So #2 or #3 or what have you are irrelevant. Hence the on my part.

 

[BinCookin]

This is the post I responded to.

That means winning the #1 pick of the entire draft. So #2 or #3 or what have you are irrelevant. Hence the on my part.

Instead of following the intent of the posts, you are "lawyer"ing them. A little leeway makes for better discussion.

If someone says 1OA pick or Generational Talent, or winning the lottery etc etc. It all means 1st or 2nd or 3rd pick. A Malkin 2nd, or Laine 2nd is tthe kind of things hes implying.

The main point is the differenc between 1/2/3 type picks and 8/9/10 type picks. That is the intent of the post. If you want everyone to word arguements the exact way you want them worded, you will always be disappointed.

With the draft now lottery for all top 3 picks... its more difficult.
He is suggesting we need a superstar, and that the FAST way to do that is to get 1/2/3 type pick.

And also I dont care exactly what his 1 post said. Ive been following all his posts and can tell his intent. Dont worry so much about wording.

 

[ap3x]

Glad I missed out on this one. Sick of losing to the Bolts. Even more frustrating if it's our special teams that let us down. Being used to a god awful PP.
But combine that with giving up two goals while being shorthanded gives you nothing else than a game like that.

Sadly, playing the Panthers next isn't much of a cheer up. Given that they've always got our number.

 

[Lampedampe]

My biggest fear is that we miss the play offs by a few points. Because if we do I doubt we'll see a shift, Holland will say some cliché about bounces and proceed to do the same thing he always does.

If Mantha and Larkin take the next step in 17/18 we might make the play offs. But obviously not good enough to win any round and thus Red wings will remain a bubble team for another 10 years. Signing borderline 1st pairing d-men every so often in the FA to keep the boat from sinking

Currently in the process of preparing myself mentally for about 10 years of disappointment....

 

[Pavels Dog]

My biggest fear is that we miss the play offs by a few points. Because if we do I doubt we'll see a shift, Holland will say some cliché about bounces and proceed to do the same thing he always does.

Why? This team would have to improve by a lot to only miss by a few points. We're 6 points out now and if not for the fluke 6 game winning streak early in the season, it would be a lot more. This team has been bottom 3 in the league for the last 25 games.

- only 1 team has less ROW than us (Arizona)
- 24th in P%
- 27th in G/GP
- 30th in PP%
- 27th in S/GP
- 21st in SA/GP
- our best goaltender just got injured

This team requires a massive turnaround at this point to make it anywhere near the playoffs. Such a turnaround should be no ones biggest fear, since it would most likely mean the entire outlook of the team changes and the entertainment value of the games increase by about 500%.

 

[Filppula]

I'm surprised there isn't more talk about this performance and how insipid it was. We looked totally incompetent in every aspect of the game.

 

[izlez]

Ice a roster of:
Tatar
Nyquist
Sheahan
Larkin
Mantha
Athanasiou
Sproul
Ouellet
Jensen
Mrazek

Look horrible in the process

Conclusion: Holland is too attached to the veterans. This is all Abdelkader's fault.

 

[Flowah]

You don't go from making the playoffs for a quarter-century to automatic rebuild in one offseason. Takes time to shed contracts, older players, etc. This is just the beginning. To quote Babcock, there will be pain. But, this is what many around here wanted. Now you have to live with it.

Easiest way to shed contracts is not signing them. But let's sign Abby and Helm to long-term contracts.

The fact is this "tank job" is not by design but by accident. And that means it's going to take longer because we're less flexible due to our stupid contract situation. The tank crowd didn't want that.

You still seem incapable of realizing the clear difference between sucking because you're bad and sucking because it's part of the plan. It's very dishonest of you to keep pretending we are anything but the first and that is what people wanted. Stop being dishonest.

 

[Flowah]

Ice a roster of:
Tatar
Nyquist
Sheahan
Larkin
Mantha
Athanasiou
Sproul
Ouellet
Jensen
Mrazek

Look horrible in the process

Conclusion: Holland is too attached to the veterans. This is all Abdelkader's fault.

You have to use context. The d corp is still garbage. Adding Jensen doesn't change that. XO is a bottom pairing guy and doesn't change that. Even if Sproul develops into more he's not more than a bottom pairing pp specialist right now. DK has seriously regressed. Kronwall is old as ****. Ericsson is Ericsson. Green is the only dman who is good on this squad. Your forwards, led by a guy who's way too old and battled injuries for years isn't going to be able to carry that d-squad.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Ice a roster of:
Tatar
Nyquist
Sheahan
Larkin
Mantha
Athanasiou
Sproul
Ouellet
Jensen
Mrazek

Look horrible in the process

Conclusion: Holland is too attached to the veterans. This is all Abdelkader's fault.

If only we could get a youth movement, then this team would dominate the league. And remember, coaching is not important. No coach could get this roster to perform like human beings with brains instead of potatoes with skates on. Nah. This is all Abdelkader's fault.

 

[Frk It]

If only we could get a youth movement, then this team would dominate the league. And remember, coaching is not important. No coach could get this roster to perform like human beings with brains instead of potatoes with skates on. Nah. This is all Abdelkader's fault.

Yeah. And if Holland was as effective as some led you to believe, than this youth movement and roster turnover to younger players that some believed could be a legitimate core without high picks should have us not at the bottom of the standings. Right?

 

[jkutswings]

You don't go from making the playoffs for a quarter-century to automatic rebuild in one offseason. Takes time to shed contracts, older players, etc. This is just the beginning. To quote Babcock, there will be pain. But, this is what many around here wanted. Now you have to live with it.

All of which makes sense, and I can live with. I just hope the denial is over in the front office, and they don't do anything stupid between now and the trade deadline.

 

[jkutswings]

Define short term? Because I don't think people understand how long a rebuild could take. Colorado has basically been rebuilding since 2009. They're probably looking at another rebuild. With the added lottery system it could be a long, long time before this team is ever good again. Not only do you have to win the lottery, but you also hope the guy you draft is a generational player. Rebuilding should be your last resort. When you've run out of options. Seems like that is where the Red Wings are right now.

It COULD take 50 years, if they continually make bad decisions.
Or, it COULD take 5 years, if the stars align.

Nobody knows how it's going to turn out, because there are thousands of variables, some of which depend on dumb luck. But the point is that is NEEDS to happen, because without a rebuild, we know exactly what the outcome will be: getting nowhere near a championship ever again.

 

[Lampedampe]

Why? This team would have to improve by a lot to only miss by a few points. We're 6 points out now and if not for the fluke 6 game winning streak early in the season, it would be a lot more. This team has been bottom 3 in the league for the last 25 games.

- only 1 team has less ROW than us (Arizona)
- 24th in P%
- 27th in G/GP
- 30th in PP%
- 27th in S/GP
- 21st in SA/GP
- our best goaltender just got injured

This team requires a massive turnaround at this point to make it anywhere near the playoffs. Such a turnaround should be no ones biggest fear, since it would most likely mean the entire outlook of the team changes and the entertainment value of the games increase by about 500%.

Never did I say what I thought was more likely, if nothing changes a bottom 5 finish seem imminent. However worst case scenario things change, helm and Abby can come back and spark the team. Mrazek can put up a few monster performances, Blashill could get fired and gallant is brought in to rally the troops.

All I can say is that turnarounds happen every season by terrible teams to ruin their draft position. We've seen Ottawa do it and the jackets almost have a tendency to do it every season.

If any team were to turn around i fear red wings could be the one, the routine is there and we have several players that tend to go really hot.

However you are right, if the wings continue like this they are likely to finish in the bottom 5. Which would be huge for this organisation.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Claypool you're smarter than this.

This wasn't an intentional tank, it was a pathetic effort to save ones one's own legacy.

Helm anf Glenn provide as much toughness as kozliv did, that means zero. You want a guy to protect your kids you sign a Matt martin

This is simply the result of a lack of vision and integrity. We could have avoided a full scale rebuild had we been smarter but we weren't anf so now a full scale rebuild is ever more likely.

It's too bad that it came to this.

 

[jkutswings]

Yeah, but smart management that is trying to rebuild doesn't saddle itself with long-term contracts to guys over 30. Since Ken Holland isn't rebuilding or tanking, that's the scenario.

Also, the argument that "Well look at team X, they tanked and they still suck." OK, sure. But do we give any credit that if the Wings tried to rebuild maybe they could do it better?

Completely fair point. My only question is, even with significantly better draft resources...can they start finding a handful of good defensemen, and land at least one bonafide top pair guy? Let's hope so - and soon - since that facet takes the longest to develop on average.

 

[Lampedampe]

It COULD take 50 years, if they continually make bad decisions.
Or, it COULD take 5 years, if the stars align.

Nobody knows how it's going to turn out, because there are thousands of variables, some of which depend on dumb luck. But the point is that is NEEDS to happen, because without a rebuild, we know exactly what the outcome will be: getting nowhere near a championship ever again.

I agree, and the thing people have to realise is that it's all about playing the odds. Now you could get unlucky or you could get lucky, that's the worst part, there's no certainly.

Now one thing is objectively true, you need less luck the further down you finish in the standings. And thus you give yourself the best chance to get lucky.

There are also certain things teams can do to increase their odds further and that is good development and scouting. I'd say that the wings are good in that department, I know many would argue otherwise but I think the wings are still pretty good outside the 1st round.

 

[TheOtherOne]

27th in goals per game
18th in goals against per game
30th ranked PP
15th ranked PK

This is super weird when pretty much everyone agreed at the start of the season that our forwards looked pretty good and our defense was almost definitely going to be our downfall.

Although I would say our defenders have a lot to do with our lack of offense.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Yeah. And if Holland was as effective as some led you to believe, than this youth movement and roster turnover to younger players that some believed could be a legitimate core without high picks should have us not at the bottom of the standings. Right?

Age of players is secondary to the system a team plays. And a youth movement is completely pointless when you throw them all onto a dysfunctional team. What hurts the most about this season is that you get the feeling it's absolutely awful for the development of all the youngsters.

Never did I say what I thought was more likely, if nothing changes a bottom 5 finish seem imminent. However worst case scenario things change, helm and Abby can come back and spark the team. Mrazek can put up a few monster performances, Blashill could get fired and gallant is brought in to rally the troops.

All I can say is that turnarounds happen every season by terrible teams to ruin their draft position. We've seen Ottawa do it and the jackets almost have a tendency to do it every season.

If any team were to turn around i fear red wings could be the one, the routine is there and we have several players that tend to go really hot.

However you are right, if the wings continue like this they are likely to finish in the bottom 5. Which would be huge for this organisation.

A coaching change and big turnaround for the team would be great. I don't think there's a player in the top 10 of the draft this year that is going to step onto this team and make much of an impact. With this kind of coaching, we need and Edmonton-quantity of #1OA picks in order to move the needle. And even they wouldn't be anywhere near as good as they currently are unless they brought in an actual NHL coach.

 

[Frk It]

Age of players is secondary to the system a team plays. And a youth movement is completely pointless when you throw them all onto a dysfunctional team. What hurts the most about this season is that you get the feeling it's absolutely awful for the development of all the youngsters.

And the system a team plays is secondary to the talent it possesses.