GDT: I forgot the GDT, so here's a late one

[Blueline Bomber]

It's Williams HoF Day!

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[Blueline Bomber]

Plenty of NHLers take a significant step forward after 25. And it's not like he's been a 40 point guy his whole career. He led the team in scoring with 71 and paced for 63 a couple years before that. And despite a "down year" this year he's pacing for over 50 points. I think of him as a young guy because he is a young guy.

I just don't see how anyone can see how he's played this year and felt like he's done a good job. For every good play he makes in a game, he's made 3 others at some point in the game that baffle the mind. It's like Jeff said, he plays like a rookie despite being in the league long enough to know better.

Here's a fun exercise. Here's a list of players that debuted the same year (2017) as Necas. Tell me which ones make the same rookie turnovers that Necas does on a pretty consistent basis:

Aho
Charlie MacAvoy
Tage Thompson
Jake DeBrusk
Alex DeBrincat
Anthony Cerelli
Nico Hischer
Troy Terry

Hell, Brendan Lemeiux debuted the same year and is basically a veteran compared to Necas. Even Foegle and Nic Roy developed their game between then and now.

He's technically a "young guy", but compare how his game has developed from his rookie year to how those players have developed their game. It's night and day.

 

[bleedgreen]

Eh. Im not that big on lindholm. He has a high point total because of the wingers he played with. His defensive numbers looked better because his line owned the puck. It is a little funny that he was nothing more than a name thrown in there until he played with Tkachuk and JG. He fell to 10th last year and likely falls lower again this year, unsurprisingly as his point totals fall.

He would’ve been the perfect center behind Aho, and a righty to boot. No need to go get Trocheck in the first place.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

He would’ve been the perfect center behind Aho, and a righty to boot. No need to go get Trocheck in the first place.

I think Hamilton-Trocheck-2 2nds was better than a Hanifin-Lindholm-roy-eetu l- etc. im not too huge on Hanifin either but we rushed him so he would sign here.

Of course had Ferland not become injury riddled the package looks better too.

 

[AD Skinner]

I don’t know maybe it’s sour grapes but I also am not super convinced lindholm would have become what he became without the change of scenery. Maybe Brind’Amour would have utilized him differently than Peters did and that would have been the difference but the trade worked out just fine for the canes

 

[bleedgreen]

I don’t know maybe it’s sour grapes but I also am not super convinced lindholm would have become what he became without the change of scenery. Maybe Brind’Amour would have utilized him differently than Peters did and that would have been the difference but the trade worked out just fine for the canes

I think he would’ve developed fine, obviously minus the huge season. Peters wanted him at center, tried him there but didn’t feel he was ready. He moved him there in Calgary. When comparing him to KK, he’d be a big improvement but I suppose a Lindy that didn’t develop quite as well would probably be at a similar level to Tro when he was with us. Tro played our style very well and I think is the stronger on the stick player which I think would make up for being less overall skilled. Either one would be nice right now.

KK could prove to be a big playoff player, I haven’t lost total faith in him.

 

[Chrispy]

I think he would’ve developed fine, obviously minus the huge season. Peters wanted him at center, tried him there but didn’t feel he was ready. He moved him there in Calgary. When comparing him to KK, he’d be a big improvement but I suppose a Lindy that didn’t develop quite as well would probably be at a similar level to Tro when he was with us. Tro played our style very well and I think is the stronger on the stick player which I think would make up for being less overall skilled. Either one would be nice right now.

KK could prove to be a big playoff player, I haven’t lost total faith in him.

As I've said before, even with the rough December Kotkaniemi had 47 points in 83 games in the 2023 calendar year. That's not a bad number at 23. The streaky issues are still a major problem, but if he hits one more hot streak this year he likely ends up over 40 points again in his age 23 season.

And I agree that Lindholm busted out offensively in part because of a level of offensive talent around him that Carolina just didn't have at that time. An 18 year old Svechnikov wasn't going to give Lindholm the scoring opportunities that JG did.

 

[MinJaBen]

Eh. Im not that big on lindholm. He has a high point total because of the wingers he played with. His defensive numbers looked better because his line owned the puck. It is a little funny that he was nothing more than a name thrown in there until he played with Tkachuk and JG. He fell to 10th last year and likely falls lower again this year, unsurprisingly as his point totals fall.

Whether you are big on him or not, his performance after he left here was substantially better than Tro's before, during, or after performance with us, so if we missed on Tro, we missed on Lindholm as well.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I like Lindholm, and of all the guys we traded away at the time, he was the one I had the most heartburn with. I agree he should be in the "missed out" category. Still, some of what is being said here about him is a bit on the rosey side.

In all his years in Calgary, he's AVERAGED 70 points / 82 games. So while he was a PPG player 1 year and close a 2nd year, calling him a PPG player is like calling Necas a 70 point player.

Secondly, since the Flames lost Gaudreau and Tkachuk, Lindholm's AVERAGE is 62 points per 82 games played. Of course any player will lose production playing with worse players, but we can't ignore that Necas has never played with players the level that Gaudreau and Tkachuk were in Calgary.

This is not meant to knock Lindholm. I'd love to have him back as a 2C, but he's not a guy I'd want to sign to a very high dollar, long term deal at this point. He'll be 30 years old shortly into next season. Having a 60-70 point RH center behind Aho would be nice though.

 

[MinJaBen]

I like Lindholm, and of all the guys we traded away at the time, he was the one I had the most heartburn with. I agree he should be in the "missed out" category. Still, some of what is being said here about him is a bit on the rosey side.

In all his years in Calgary, he's AVERAGED 70 points / 82 games. So while he was a PPG player 1 year and close a 2nd year, calling him a PPG player is like calling Necas a 70 point player.

Secondly, since the Flames lost Gaudreau and Tkachuk, Lindholm's AVERAGE is 62 points per 82 games played. Of course any player will lose production playing with worse players, but we can't ignore that Necas has never played with players the level that Gaudreau and Tkachuk were in Calgary.

This is not meant to knock Lindholm. I'd love to have him back as a 2C, but he's not a guy I'd want to sign to a very high dollar, long term deal at this point. He'll be 30 years old shortly into next season. Having a 60-70 point RH center behind Aho would be nice though.

Well, maybe the offensive numbers being imagined/touted are on the rosy side of things for Lindholm. And given who he played with in Calgary, that is a valid point.

However, the other side of the coin in making these comparisons are his 200 foot play and defensive acumen. How many other comparables do we have in this exercise that finished second in Selke voting? And now let's imagine a guy playing for Rod as a center who is a ligit 60+ player and Selke capable? Seems like a really good fit for us if we still had him, no?

I know it is not you, but the poo-pooing of Lindholm's play around here is pretty funny. He would as good a center in our system as Aho is, though different strengths. Aho-Lindhom might be the best combination of 1-2 centers we could ever have aside from some stupid scenarios where McJesus demands a trade to us or some other brain-addled fantasies some come up with around here about some superstar's availability.

 

[bleedgreen]

I like Lindholm, and of all the guys we traded away at the time, he was the one I had the most heartburn with. I agree he should be in the "missed out" category. Still, some of what is being said here about him is a bit on the rosey side.

In all his years in Calgary, he's AVERAGED 70 points / 82 games. So while he was a PPG player 1 year and close a 2nd year, calling him a PPG player is like calling Necas a 70 point player.

Secondly, since the Flames lost Gaudreau and Tkachuk, Lindholm's AVERAGE is 62 points per 82 games played. Of course any player will lose production playing with worse players, but we can't ignore that Necas has never played with players the level that Gaudreau and Tkachuk were in Calgary.

This is not meant to knock Lindholm. I'd love to have him back as a 2C, but he's not a guy I'd want to sign to a very high dollar, long term deal at this point. He'll be 30 years old shortly into next season. Having a 60-70 point RH center behind Aho would be nice though.

I don’t think we got on the topic of Lindy in terms of reacquiring. It was mostly talking about directions we could’ve gone instead of ending up with KK. I wouldn’t want Lindy on a max length deal and Im obviously a fan of his.

It’s possible his number drops with the production dropping more in line with what his expectations always were. I’d hardly mind an overpay short term contract with him a la Orlov with him. A boy can dream.

 

[MinJaBen]

I don’t think we got on the topic of Lindy in terms of reacquiring. It was mostly talking about directions we could’ve gone instead of ending up with KK. I wouldn’t want Lindy on a max length deal and Im obviously a fan of his.

It’s possible his number drops with the production dropping more in line with what his expectations always were. I’d hardly mind an overpay short term contract with him a la Orlov with him. A boy can dream.

I'd take him for a max term contract if the price were right. He has been pretty durable and I would be willing to take the bad years if the fit were good during our prime window years we have now.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I'd take him for a max term contract if the price were right. He has been pretty durable and I would be willing to take the bad years if the fit were good during our prime window years we have now.

I think that's the problem. What's the right price? Rumors (which may not be accurate) are that he rejected 8 year, $9M / year with Calgary and wants something in that range.

Even if those rumors aren't accurate, I have a tough time believing the Canes are going to be the high bidders for his services and someone will pay more than "the right price".

 

[MinJaBen]

I think that's the problem. What's the right price? Rumors (which may not be accurate) are that he rejected 8 year, $9M / year with Calgary and wants something in that range.

Even if those rumors aren't accurate, I have a tough time believing the Canes are going to be the high bidders for his services and someone will pay more than "the right price".

Johnny Hockey took less then he was offered so he could get out of Dodge, so to speak. If Lindholm turned down the Flames because he wants more money, then I agree with you. If he turned down the Flames because he just doesn't see them competing anytime during his remaining time with them (I think that would be a valid appraisal of their chances with the other contracts they have) then maybe he takes a different contract. I would want to do a sign and trade like they did with Tkachuk so you get the 8 years to lower the AAV costs.

As I said, if the price were right. I'd give him the 8 x $9M if it were a location thing. I think he is equivalent-ish value to Aho and with the cap going up that would be (in my mind) a reasonable value for him as "Aho's Malkin".

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Johnny Hockey took less then he was offered so he could get out of Dodge, so to speak.

And is still getting paid close to $10M per year.

If Lindholm turned down the Flames because he wants more money, then I agree with you. If he turned down the Flames because he just doesn't see them competing anytime during his remaining time with them (I think that would be a valid appraisal of their chances with the other contracts they have) then maybe he takes a different contract. I would want to do a sign and trade like they did with Tkachuk so you get the 8 years to lower the AAV costs.

Possibly. I don't know what Lindholm or his agent are thinking, so it's just speculation. If we look at "comparable" players and where the cap is going, I think he has a strong argument for around $9M / year and I suspect some team will give it to him. Let's say he's a step down from Aho, who last year signed at $9.75. Brazal is $9.1, Horvat $8.5 last year, etc..

I've learned to never say never as some players hold out for too much and get left with a lesser contract when the music stops, but I expect Lindholm will command $8.5M and up on a long term deal and there will be multiple bidders IMO.

As I said, if the price were right.

Yep, I understand and agree. What do you consider the right price?

 

[MinJaBen]

And is still getting paid close to $10M per year.

Sure, but still less than the final offer from the Flames. Especially if you look at the 7 year term instead of 8 years. He didn't want to stay and put a price on that. I don't know if that is what Lindholm is doing or not, but the precedent exists.

Yep, I understand and agree. What do you consider the right price?

As I said above, if it is location, location, location, then I would be happy with the contract he turned down of 8 x $9M. So again, depends why he turned that down and that would have to be known by the Canes before making the move.

 

[The Jerk Store]

If we brought back Lindholm as a #2C, our second line becomes a second scoring line again, not a duplicate of the fourth line. He would actually be an excellent acquisition since he could fill in for Staal in certain situations as well, plus he plays with grit.

 

[MinJaBen]

If we brought back Lindholm as a #2C, our second line becomes a second scoring line again, not a duplicate of the fourth line. He would actually be an excellent acquisition since he could fill in for Staal in certain situations as well, plus he plays with grit.

I think he makes a lot of sense if he is available to us. I would move KK to the Flames as part of the package to save money at the center spot and use Drury and Pono to fill fourth line duties and eventually 3rd line when Staal is done.

Aho - Lindholm - Staal - Drury down the middle is a center group Rod would use well.

 

[The Jerk Store]

I think he makes a lot of sense if he is available to us. I would move KK to the Flames as part of the package to save money at the center spot and use Drury and Pono to fill fourth line duties and eventually 3rd line when Staal is done.

Aho - Lindholm - Staal - Drury down the middle is a center group Rod would use well.

He would afford Rod some insane flexibility on faceoffs, PP, and PK. You could also start him in place of Staal in regulation OT as well.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

There's zero chance we're moving on from KK after signing him to that long term deal, and having him struggle like he has lately. We made our bed, now we have to lay in it

 

[Chrispy]

If they want to go for it, I can see them bringing in Lindholm as a rental and then seeing where things go after.

But I just don't see them going all in this year given the goalie situation. Unless they are going for a goalie.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I often wonder what Rod thinks of Lindholm. He was part of the brain-trust that decided to trade him, although management makes moves that he isn't always ok with).

I do remember the year before when he was an assistant and talking about Lindholm, he commented that (paraphrasing) "he can be a great player, but he has to put the work in". I didn't take it as general coach speak at the time, my reading between the lines was he wanted Lindholm to work harder.

People change and times change, so even if Rod wasn't a fan back then, which may not be true, it might be different now.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

I like Lindholm, and of all the guys we traded away at the time, he was the one I had the most heartburn with. I agree he should be in the "missed out" category. Still, some of what is being said here about him is a bit on the rosey side.

In all his years in Calgary, he's AVERAGED 70 points / 82 games. So while he was a PPG player 1 year and close a 2nd year, calling him a PPG player is like calling Necas a 70 point player.

Secondly, since the Flames lost Gaudreau and Tkachuk, Lindholm's AVERAGE is 62 points per 82 games played. Of course any player will lose production playing with worse players, but we can't ignore that Necas has never played with players the level that Gaudreau and Tkachuk were in Calgary.

This is not meant to knock Lindholm. I'd love to have him back as a 2C, but he's not a guy I'd want to sign to a very high dollar, long term deal at this point. He'll be 30 years old shortly into next season. Having a 60-70 point RH center behind Aho would be nice though.

Also, usage is an important consideration. Lindholm's been a fixture on Calgary's 1st PP. Of the 92 points he's scored since Gaudreau and Tkachuk left, 28 were with the man advantage. Is he getting that usage here? Jarvis is in his spot on the 1st unit and is producing. Kotkaniemi is a proxy for full-time 2nd unit opportunity; he's at just 13 points in a similar amount of games in the sample.

 

[The Jerk Store]

I'm not suggesting that Lindholm would necessarily be a PPG player here, but he would be a clear, all-around #2C 60-65pts type who can play in all situations. He's the type of player you want in the playoffs going up against the likes of Tkachuk.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

I'm not suggesting that Lindholm would necessarily be a PPG player here, but he would be a clear, all-around #2C 60-65pts type who can play in all situations. He's the type of player you want in the playoffs going up against the likes of Tkachuk.

That may be true but Calgary is going to be asking 1C prices. So it’s not worth it nor will be his contract ask.

 

[bleedgreen]

I think he’s probably worth 8.5 with the cap increasing, even at a lower production. It’s the term for me with him being older. I think he’s got four or five years left. If it puts us over the top then it’s probably worth it, but that’s a tough pill to swallow if it doesn’t.