i cant say i understand the PA

Discussion in 'The Business of Hockey' started by Brent Burns Beard, Feb 22, 2005.

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  1. Brent Burns Beard

    Brent Burns Beard DontTouchMyDonskoi!

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    i have for all this time been very much against the owners tactics and frankly still feel this would have been resolved if the owners had used a softer hand.

    HOWEVER, what exactly do the players think they have to hold onto here ? they are a collective group of fools for not taking their stay of execution (on saturday) and making it work.

    the NHL called their bluff and now everyone (staff, players, owners, fans, associated business) is losing out.

    talk about stubborn. talk about being a victim of your own success. they are so rich (players) that they arent hungry enough to suck it up and "settle" for some less "fair". can you imagine the word "fair" being used so many times as the lone reason why they cant agree to share 42.5m X 30 between their brothers.

    i still hold the owners accountable for getting the league into this mess, but my opinion on the players has changed big time in the last few weeks.

    dont count me on the players side anymore. they had the chance to bail the NHL out and said screw you. i say screw them.

    dr
     
  2. Russian Fan

    Russian Fan Registered User

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    Then the NHL P.R to blame everything on the player succeed a lot !!!

    My thought is that the OWNERS never want to agree with them. Very often when something got closer to a ''resemblance'' of an agreement, it was said that they put some variance in the offers just to confuse the PA & make sure they wont accept.

    Everything seems well for the owners but I'm one who don't believe 1 cent they will win the impasse thing & also they can't live with ''scabs'' to get what they want.
     
  3. Scoogs

    Scoogs Registered User

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    While I know the season is dead... if the PA had some ****ing brains, and called the owners up and asked if the 42.5 is still available, I think the owners would go for it. Maybe... :dunno:
     
  4. Brent Burns Beard

    Brent Burns Beard DontTouchMyDonskoi!

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    fine, you are entitled to your opinion. fact is, scabs or lockout, the players chose to not suck it up. its their right, but i dont support such a position anymore.

    at some point in time you have to see the forest through the tree's and move on. they are fighting a battle that i cant support anymore.

    like they care what i think anyhow.

    dr
     
  5. Brent Burns Beard

    Brent Burns Beard DontTouchMyDonskoi!

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    its not just the cap ... its everything else, they dont even agree on the meat and potatoes of the other issues.

    dr
     
  6. Reilly311

    Reilly311 Guest

    I can't understand how there on players on the PA that don't even have college degrees.
     
  7. Russian Fan

    Russian Fan Registered User

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    I just don't see why they should ''suck it up'' to owners who are not willing to budge on anything. Fans perceive this as a true statement on how bad the economics are & I think it's all related to the P.R. the owners/Bettman/Daly did so far.

    They spend too much time to give the fans what they want to hear instead of really getting it done.

    Everyone blame Goodenow here but what he did so far was brilliant if you ask me. He did everything in order the NHL can't go into the impasse stuff by removing the ''philosophical differences'' slash/CAP vs NO CAP.

    The owners won't get everything , at least that's not what I think as of today.

    P.S to you personally DR, I understand that you can be tired to be in the minority here, it's exhausting.
     
  8. me2

    me2 Calling out the crap

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    When push came to shove the NHL has been offering the simplier more direct options. They might not have been the right options for the NHLPA but they are simple. A cap at $42.5m is a cap at $42.4m. Less deception.

    I'm sorry but its the NHLPA that have been putting up most of the odd variances. The infamous clause 7, for example. Dodgy linkages and trigger clauses they can manipulate. $49m caps that are really $53.9m caps. Not telling their players about taking a cap or rolling back their wages.

    The NHL has been more up front and honest during the end stages of this than the NHLPA.
     
  9. Russian Fan

    Russian Fan Registered User

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    You see it only as the #'$ of the cap but this negociation is far more than that.

    I don't know how you perceive me as a poster but personnally I don't care a CAP @ 42 or 45. I think it's ok both ways but the owners so far just doesn't want a cap. They want EVERYTHING. The entry level cap, a 4 year starting contrat, staying UFA @ 31 or 30. QO's @ 75%, no increase in the cap even if the MAKE HUGE PROFIT, no revenue sharing even if TORONTO for example go from 20M$ to 60M$ of profit with a cap.

    The owner's vision is just to crush to PA & that is awful negociation & will just lead to weakened the NHL as a sport.
     
  10. me2

    me2 Calling out the crap

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    The NHL can't get impasse now because both sides still seem to be giving ground. However the NHL can still bargain to impasse on other issues. The NHL can still bargain to impasse on the actual amount of the cap (which will come back to $40m now). What is Goodenow going to do, cave to $40m or $42.5m (if its still on the table) just to stop impasse?

    So lets see, he'll screw the season, screw his players, screw the fans, screw the history of the game and then cave to $40m (just to stop impasse) when he could have had $42.5m or possibly $45m? When he could have had a stronger position on other issues by being seen to concede ground on the cap. When he could have his players back earning money.

    FAN*F__ING*TASTIC PLAN....
     
  11. Brent Burns Beard

    Brent Burns Beard DontTouchMyDonskoi!

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    yes it might be the owners want everything and are being *******s in an attempt to crush the union. guess what, they are going to crush the union anyway. so why not take your lumps and at least negotiate your best deal instead of having it rammed down your throat AND losing 2billion or so in the process.

    dr
     
  12. Insanity

    Insanity Registered User

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    Hmm.. They aren't... started at $31M cap tied to revenues.. went to a $42M cap not linked... That is movement :)


    There is a fundamental issue that I have with the players: They are circling everytime the owners make a move to get closer. Example 1: The triggers. Why did the players not negotiate the triggers? Instead they said no. Example 2: The salary cap - both had no cap linkage and then all of the sudden, the players put upward mobility into it. Changing philosophies like that is a sure sign of negotiating in bad faith.



    Neither side should get "everything" .. but at tihs point, they are getting the same thing -- nothing.
     
  13. Russian Fan

    Russian Fan Registered User

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    I understand everything you said but unfortunately it NEVER WAS ABOUT THE FAN & FROM BOTH SIDES. I can understand if you're pro-owner for some reasons but when 70% of the pro-owners believe it's for the FANS & for the game it's very naive from them.

    To get back on impasse, do you know what IMPASSE is ? You get it or you don't , as simple as that. You won't called impasse for some subject.

    Right now the OWNERS doesn't have what it takes to get impasse so either they start getting a deal the PA would think is fair (& PLEASE fair doesn't mean EVERYTHING ON THE PA's side. It could be fair with a cap but giving some ''bones'' to the PA to make an agreement'')
     
  14. Brent Burns Beard

    Brent Burns Beard DontTouchMyDonskoi!

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    to clarify, i agree with your position... my point is that the players strategy is faulty and the costs to get their "fair deal" is worse than taking their medicine.

    why fight a battle you can only lose. even if htey win, they lose. they could drive the NHL into the ground and win on every point they choose. they could set every mechanism in the CBA. what good is that if 5 or 6 franchises go out of business ? how does that help the league or the PA long term ?

    its like cutting off your arm to save your finger nail.....

    dr
     
  15. Russian Fan

    Russian Fan Registered User

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    That's where I think you're wrong. Did the owners win the BATTLE ? Of course they win it, I never suggested it was a tie or a PA gain but as of today, the owner got NOTHING to ''crush'' the union. They kiss goodbye the ''IMPASSE'' plan & right now it's either the lockout is VERY LONG & the owners negotiate the details around the 42-45M$ cap.

    About losing 2 billions, it's from BOTH SIDE !!! Just with the cancellation of the season, NHL franchise lost an average 20M$ = 600M$. Add to that what they loss (even with the loss less with a lockout).

    It's up to the owners to decide HOW LONG they want this lockout. It could end in the next 2-3 months but if they think they will get linkage & a 32M$ cap, they will just lost everything they have. Players will have lost TONS OF MONEY but OWNERS TOO !!!
     
  16. CarlRacki

    CarlRacki Registered User

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    Bob Goodenow: "I've invented a way to cost my constituents more than $1 billion."

    Guinness guy: "Cost your constituents more than $1 billion? Brilliant!"

    Goodenow: "Brilliant!"

    Russian Fan: "Brilliant"
     
  17. Russian Fan

    Russian Fan Registered User

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    That's the thing, I don't think the PA got NOTHING TO LOSE as of today but everything to win.

    I can understad the crap about, the owners offers will only get worse & that's the owners choice but without impasse, the owners can offer whatever they want, it will only put the lockout longer than it already is.

    Right now , we know that the next cap will be 42.5 or 45-46 but the rest of the deal is up to the owners to negotiate ''in good faith''.

    just my 2 cents
     
  18. Russian Fan

    Russian Fan Registered User

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    Gary Bettman: "I've invented a way to cost my constituents more than $1 billion. I even find a way to eliminate this league to the small radar that I had in the USA. Right now, the franchises value of my 30 constituent is declining at a fast pace. I'm about to lose the small sponsorship I have so far. I never got any TV contract to make my league succesfull"

    Russian Fan: "Cost your constituents more than $1 billion? Brilliant!"

    Goodenow: "Brilliant!"

    Guinness guy: "Brilliant"

    Turn it whatever you want, it's BOTH SIDE.
     
  19. me2

    me2 Calling out the crap

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    Negotiations are not finished. They will be negotiating all the way through until May or June. That gives the NHL months to get to more items to use if they want to call an impasse. Including a difference on the cap where both the owners and players are not prepared to move up or down.

    The owners can still get an impasse. Simple as that. They can't get it right now based on what's happened in the last few weeks because of too much movement. Both sides will go back and regroup, neither side can lose any more this year. Don't expect either side to give much more, this suits the NHL.

    Then again, I'm not sure the NHL is going to take the impasse route anyway. I think they will wait out the NHLPA.
     
  20. SuperUnknown

    SuperUnknown Registered User

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    The $600M isn't going into the owner's pockets while the $1B+ would have gone into the players pockets.

    Also, if the lockout is long, the players will get a cap at like $30M, nothing more. So what good is it to not play, lose 1-2 years of a short career + lose $1-2B in the process to get a worse deal than you could have gotten at the start of this season (and have that $1-2B in your pocket)?

    As to the owners, you think they really care collectively losing $200M+ because the game is on or losing $200M+ because no one's playing? I don't think so. Heck, some of these owners are happy that there's no season (for financial reasons).
     
  21. me2

    me2 Calling out the crap

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    It takes a lot of skill to lose more than $1B when your expense are just a few million.
     
  22. kmad

    kmad riot survivor

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    I blame the owners and Bettman especially for the financial mess in the first place, and I blame the NHLPA for not helping to make it better.

    It's a lot like the Bush in Iraq fiasco. You can see that Bush's plan from the get-go was to still be stuck in Iraq come the next election time, so that people would have to vote for him, because he knew the situation inside-out in ways Kerry wouldn't have.

    I'd bet that Bettman knew the southern American markets would fail. He's a very intelligent man who knows how to get what he wants. He wanted to let them fail so that the players would have to accept a stricter economic landscape to ensure the health of the 30 teams.

    I'm neither pro-owner or pro-player, but at the same time I realize that Bettman has won; Goodenow has been defeated soundly. The only way to save hockey is for the PA to give in, as sad as it is.
     
  23. CarlRacki

    CarlRacki Registered User

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    That would make more sense if the NHL hadn't lost between $96 million (Forbes) and $273 million last year. The league certainly lost nowhere close to $1-$1.5 billion this year, unlike it's players .
     
  24. Russian Fan

    Russian Fan Registered User

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    Well my opinion about IMPASSE is not because they can't agree, it's because they can'T agree on something BIGGER than the margin they are right now.

    About negociation, it's negociation when the owners will decide to take part of it & not dictate what they want.
     
  25. My guess is that Goodenow and the PA's attorneys have info we don't have.
    They must know that several teams are incapable of a long lockout, or they must know that the NHL will pursue the impasse route and must be confident that the NHL is going to lose big.

    While pride is one of the things keeping the players onside, it's probably not part of Goodenow's mindset.
    It better not be. If they are banking simply on that, then they are in big trouble.

    Either way, the league is screwed for the next ten years.

    I hope the league has lots of clean needles available for all the steroids they're going to need to resurrect the game.
     
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