i cant say i understand the PA

[Russian Fan]

The $600M isn't going into the owner's pockets while the $1B+ would have gone into the players pockets.

Also, if the lockout is long, the players will get a cap at like $30M, nothing more. So what good is it to not play, lose 1-2 years of a short career + lose $1-2B in the process to get a worse deal than you could have gotten at the start of this season (and have that $1-2B in your pocket)?

As to the owners, you think they really care collectively losing $200M+ because the game is on or losing $200M+ because no one's playing? I don't think so. Heck, some of these owners are happy that there's no season (for financial reasons).

Well it's an average 1,8M$ per players vs 20-30M$ , we'll see who got more to lose.

 

[Russian Fan]

That would make more sense if the NHL hadn't lost between $96 million (Forbes) and $273 million last year. The league certainly lost nowhere close to $1-$1.5 billion this year, unlike it's players .

Again you make numbers talk the way you like to.

1-1.5B$ divide by 750 players

1B$ divide by 30 players is a lot worse

 

[Russian Fan]

My guess is that Goodenow and the PA's attorneys have info we don't have.
They must know that several teams are incapable of a long lockout, or they must know that the NHL will pursue the impasse route and must be confident that the NHL is going to lose big.

While pride is one of the things keeping the players onside, it's probably not part of Goodenow's mindset.
It better not be. If they are banking simply on that, then they are in big trouble.

Either way, the league is screwed for the next ten years.

I hope the league has lots of clean needles available for all the steroids they're going to need to resurrect the game.

Add to that if I was in the PA's executive, I would like the MLB , make in the CBA that the NHL CAN'T CONTRACT ANY FRANCHISE for the lenght of the CBA.

Owners don't want revenue sharing ? FINE but guarantee that you won't contract any franchise in order to keep every players job.

 

[Chelios]

That's the thing, I don't think the PA got NOTHING TO LOSE as of today but everything to win.

I can understad the crap about, the owners offers will only get worse & that's the owners choice but without impasse, the owners can offer whatever they want, it will only put the lockout longer than it already is.

Right now , we know that the next cap will be 42.5 or 45-46 but the rest of the deal is up to the owners to negotiate ''in good faith''.

just my 2 cents

See I just don`t think you understand. The NHLPA could get the exact same CBA as we have had for the last 10 years, but if it costs the NHL a year and a half or two years the damage will be so bad that the players will be no better off than had they accepted the last offer from the owners. The best possible deal for the players was the one they could have hammered out on saturday, bar none. I really don`t see how anyone can argue that point.

 

[Russian Fan]

See I just don`t think you understand. The NHLPA could get the exact same CBA as we have had for the last 10 years, but if it costs the NHL a year and a half or two years the damage will be so bad that the players will be no better off than had they accepted the last offer from the owners. The best possible deal for the players was the one they could have hammered out on saturday, bar none. I really don`t see how anyone can argue that point.

You see only 1 point of view. The players already know they won't get the same CBA as the last 10 years. This arguments of yours is very poor & irrelevant to the discussion.

But the fight is more deep than that.

 

[me2]

That's the thing, I don't think the PA got NOTHING TO LOSE as of today but everything to win.

I can understad the crap about, the owners offers will only get worse & that's the owners choice but without impasse, the owners can offer whatever they want, it will only put the lockout longer than it already is.

Right now , we know that the next cap will be 42.5 or 45-46 but the rest of the deal is up to the owners to negotiate ''in good faith''.

just my 2 cents

The next cap might be $40m. The more the players dig in and refuse to budge the closer the NHL gets to have the stuf it needs to call for an impasse. Great options, move towards the NHLs offer and lose, and stay put and increase the impasse threat. Full credit to Goodenow for getting the union into this quicksand. Do nothing and sink, strugle and sink faster.

Maybe someone should read Goodenow the story of Brer Rabbit and the Tar Baby. Right now he's punching the tar baby with every available fist and foot, and Bettman won't be putting him in a Briar patch.

 

[CarlRacki]

Again you make numbers talk the way you like to.

1-1.5B$ divide by 750 players

1B$ divide by 30 players is a lot worse

Again, where are you getting this $1 billion figure?
According to Forbes:
League revenues = $2.24 billion.
Subtract player salaries of $1.48 billion = $760 million

Now, subtract other costs that aren't incurred during a lockout (i.e. travel, equipment, medical, employees, etc.) and it's more than obvious the owners aren't losing anywhere near as much as the players. In fact, some lose less by not playing at all.

 

[Chelios]

You see only 1 point of view. The players already know they won't get the same CBA as the last 10 years. This arguments of yours is very poor & irrelevant to the discussion.

But the fight is more deep than that.

Please explain to me how the players will get a better deal than the one they could have made on saturday.

 

[Icey]

The $600M isn't going into the owner's pockets while the $1B+ would have gone into the players pockets.

Also, if the lockout is long, the players will get a cap at like $30M, nothing more. So what good is it to not play, lose 1-2 years of a short career + lose $1-2B in the process to get a worse deal than you could have gotten at the start of this season (and have that $1-2B in your pocket)?

As to the owners, you think they really care collectively losing $200M+ because the game is on or losing $200M+ because no one's playing? I don't think so. Heck, some of these owners are happy that there's no season (for financial reasons).

I've said this from the beginning. I am basically on the players side. I despise Bettman and what he has done to this sport and the fact that he doesn't want to admit he's made some major mistakes. I hate the owners because they don't give a crap about the fans, all they want to do is increase their profits with no regard to anyone else, but that is another topic.

But for god's sake these players just baffel me. THEY ARE GOING TO LOSE THIS BATTLE, but they don't need to lose the war. Buttman is going to get his cap, no doubt about it. The sooner the players give into that, the better off they would be. They could have negotiated off arbitration, rookie contracts, qualifying offers, revenue sharing, etc. I think the league would have given them what they wanted had they accepted their salary cap offer. But for god knows some reason they feel they are going to win. They think the owners are going to cave in. The longer they stand their ground, the worse off they will be.

I have zero respect for Bob Goodenow. Bill Guerin could drop off the face of this earth and I wouldn't care. Trevor Linden, however I do have a lot of respect for. I admire him for calling those meetings back in December, but again it baffles me on why he can't see the writing on the wall.

The guys that are making the decisions for the union IMO don't represent the union. I would like to see a player who makes $500,000 in those meetings. I would like to see a player who plays for the love of the game rather than a paycheck sit in those meeting and say he won't play under a cap system. I want a player who was just hitting his prime sit in those meeting and say they won't tie revenues to salaries.

Get rid of the entire executive committee and negotiating committee for BOTH sides and start with a new bunch of people. Those who have been involved obviously can't get it done, so I say find some people who can.

And if the NHL is banking on an impass and/or replacement players, they are as blind as the players.

 

[Russian Fan]

The next cap might be $40m. The more the players dig in and refuse to budge the closer the NHL gets to have the stuf it needs to call for an impasse. Great options, move towards the NHLs offer and lose, and stay put and increase the impasse threat. Full credit to Goodenow for getting the union into this quicksand. Do nothing and sink, strugle and sink faster.

Maybe someone should read Goodenow the story of Brer Rabbit and the Tar Baby. Right now he's punching the tar baby with every available fist and foot, and Bettman won't be putting him in a Briar patch.

Again you're seeing 1 point of view + media frenzy about this thing.

Even if the owners offer only 40M$, that doesn't mean it will be accepted by the players, then what happens ? We have a second season cancelled ? Again another media frenzy on how the players lost 3B$ ? How about the 30 owners losing their franchise ? How about the NHL folding ?

2 sides to every story.

 

[Russian Fan]

Again, where are you getting this $1 billion figure?
According to Forbes:
League revenues = $2.24 billion.
Subtract player salaries of $1.48 billion = $760 million

Now, subtract other costs that aren't incurred during a lockout (i.e. travel, equipment, medical, employees, etc.) and it's more than obvious the owners aren't losing anywhere near as much as the players. In fact, some lose less by not playing at all.

1B$ =

loss of this year which we don't know
+
franchise devaluating
+
sponsorship deal cancelled
+
refunding season ticket holder

 

[Russian Fan]

Please explain to me how the players will get a better deal than the one they could have made on saturday.

Maybe because the owners can either get a lenghty lockout which will only get worse for the owners or they need to go at the table & negotiate in good faith.

like I said they agree on 42,5 or 45M$ as a cap.

The owners need to compromise & if they don't which it's their right, they will have a long lockout. Impasse as I see it won't be an option.

The owners already win IT , it's like a poker game, you had 10,000$ to start with & you're now in the final 2 with 187,500$. Do you leave the table or do you want the other 56,000$ the other player is having ?

It's up to the owners.

 

[Chelios]

Again you're seeing 1 point of view + media frenzy about this thing.

Even if the owners offer only 40M$, that doesn't mean it will be accepted by the players, then what happens ? We have a second season cancelled ? Again another media frenzy on how the players lost 3B$ ? How about the 30 owners losing their franchise ? How about the NHL folding ?

2 sides to every story.

Are you being serious? Honestly. I think everyone here knows that there is two sides to this story. The point we are trying to point out to you is that the objective for the NHLPA from the onset of this was to get the best deal possible for its players. They missed that chance. It is as simple as that. They rejected the best offer they were going to receive. That is why you are seeing people like DR and Icey question what the NHLPA is thinking, because they just made a HUGE mistake.

 

[Chelios]

Maybe because the owners can either get a lenghty lockout which will only get worse for the owners or they need to go at the table & negotiate in good faith.

like I said they agree on 42,5 or 45M$ as a cap.

The owners need to compromise & if they don't which it's their right, they will have a long lockout. Impasse as I see it won't be an option.

The owners already win IT , it's like a poker game, you had 10,000$ to start with & you're now in the final 2 with 187,500$. Do you leave the table or do you want the other 56,000$ the other player is having ?

It's up to the owners.

You still have not answered my question.

 

[Russian Fan]

Are you being serious? Honestly. I think everyone here knows that there is two sides to this story. The point we are trying to point out to you is that the objective for the NHLPA from the onset of this was to get the best deal possible for its players. They missed that chance. It is as simple as that. They rejected the best offer they were going to receive. That is why you are seeing people like DR and Icey question what the NHLPA is thinking, because they just made a HUGE mistake.

What if the best deal never CAME YET because of the arrogance of Bettman/Owners/Daly/who you want ?

 

[Russian Fan]

You still have not answered my question.

I did it multiple times in many post in this thread but you refuse to see it because for you, your perception is that the offer will be worse than worse than worse.

That said, do the owners have the power to have a 2-3 years lockout ? I don't think so.

So someday some owners will wake up & do a good deal which they will be clearly A BIG WINNER by having a cap @ 42,5 or 45M$ + no more players on contract because of the lockout.

Not because the owners will offer 31M$ + linkage in 2 months that it will be ''I TOLD YOU SO''

The players can still play hockey somewhere, maybe at less money but still playing while owners see their franchise value going down & down & down & down the drain as time goes by.

 

[Chelios]

What if the best deal never CAME YET because of the arrogance of Bettman/Owners/Daly/who you want ?

Well than simply answer the question I asked youi: How are the players going to get a better deal than the last one offered by the owners?

I don`t see how anyone can be so blindly entenched in their position that they can`t see what is blantantly obvious to everyone else. There is no way that the players can get a better deal, now that the season has been cancelled. It is absolutely impossible. However, if you disagree, than simply answer my question and give a scenerio where the players get a better deal. I would love to hear it.

 

[Chelios]

I did it multiple times in many post in this thread but you refuse to see it because for you, your perception is that the offer will be worse than worse than worse.

No you haven`t answered my question. You just said that my "perception is that the offer will be worse than worse than worse", my question was to give me a scenerio where the offer would be better, please.

 

[Bicycle Repairman]

... give me a scenerio where the offer would be better, please.

The NLRB rules both parties operate under the terms of the expired CBA.

Hey, you asked.

 

[Russian Fan]

Well than simply answer the question I asked youi: How are the players going to get a better deal than the last one offered by the owners?

I don`t see how anyone can be so blindly entenched in their position that they can`t see what is blantantly obvious to everyone else. There is no way that the players can get a better deal, now that the season has been cancelled. It is absolutely impossible. However, if you disagree, than simply answer my question and give a scenerio where the players get a better deal. I would love to hear it.

I'm not even PRO-PA & you tell me that i'm entrenched in my position when 300 of your probably 305 posts are about how you wish the union to be crushed. GOOD ONE that make me laugh.

You seem to be good at asking questions but here some for you (even if I know you will give some NHLCBANews.com type of answers)

- Why is it impossbile ? Because the owners don't know the future ? It's their problem

- Why there is no way to get a better answer ? Are you an insider or it's just the media frenzy that told you. If 90% said so then it must be true. You know that every great discovery that has been made start with an ''It's impossible to do'' type of answers ?

- You need to read & stop getting emotional when you want answers you don't like. PLayers will get a better deal becuase they got nothing to lose anymore while the owners are having EVERYTHING TO LOSE without getting an impasse. The longer the lockout goes, the longer the pressure is to the owners to pay their franchise debt

 

[Chelios]

The NLRB rules both parties operate under the terms of the expired CBA.

Hey, you asked.

The damage done to the game will be so severe that the players would make more if they accepted the owners last offer and salvaged some type of a season than they would if 2 seasons went by and they got the exact same CBA as the one that expired. That is what I`m saying.

 

[Chelios]

I'm not even PRO-PA & you tell me that i'm entrenched in my position when 300 of your probably 305 posts are about how you wish the union to be crushed. GOOD ONE that make me laugh.

Go read my posts. I have never said anything about crushing the union and lately I rarely post on CBA issues, I am only doing so because I find it amazing that you can say what you are saying. And by the way, you have still not answered my question

- Why is it impossbile ? Because the owners don't know the future ? It's their problem

It is impossible because once the season is cancelled the damage done to the NHL would be so severe that the owners can simply not afford to offer any deal that is even remotely close to that which they last offered.

- Why there is no way to get a better answer ? Are you an insider or it's just the media frenzy that told you. If 90% said so then it must be true. You know that every great discovery that has been made start with an ''It's impossible to do'' type of answers ?

I`m honestly not even sure what the question is here. I am not an insider and I am not just listening to what the media says. I`m using common sense, which is probably what the rest of the 90% of the people on this board are using.

- You need to read & stop getting emotional when you want answers you don't like. PLayers will get a better deal becuase they got nothing to lose anymore while the owners are having EVERYTHING TO LOSE without getting an impasse. The longer the lockout goes, the longer the pressure is to the owners to pay their franchise debt

Please explain to me how the players have nothing to lose. They are giving up a years salary, two years possibly, in order to get a deal that will most definately be worse than the one they could have gotten with only losing half a years salary.

There, I answered your question, the least you could do is answer mine.

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

The NLRB rules both parties operate under the terms of the expired CBA.

Hey, you asked.

i agree, thats the only strategy that the PA has left. ... what if the NHL never lets them use it and doesnt call for impasse, simply continues the lockout .. secondly, if the old CBA causes CRL, PHX, ANA and FLA to fold, the players are ok with this ?

dr

 

[me2]

Again you're seeing 1 point of view + media frenzy about this thing.

Even if the owners offer only 40M$, that doesn't mean it will be accepted by the players, then what happens ?

If the owners offer $40m

1. the players say no, we aren't moving down. players dig in. negotiations fail. OOPS another part of impasse trigger if the NHL wants to use it

2. the players say yes. HAHAHA they turned $45m into $40m and missed months worth of pay to do it.

 

[alecfromtherock]

My guess is that Goodenow and the PA's attorneys have info we don't have.
They must know that several teams are incapable of a long lockout, or they must know that the NHL will pursue the impasse route and must be confident that the NHL is going to lose big.

While pride is one of the things keeping the players onside, it's probably not part of Goodenow's mindset.
It better not be. If they are banking simply on that, then they are in big trouble.

Either way, the league is screwed for the next ten years.

I hope the league has lots of clean needles available for all the steroids they're going to need to resurrect the game.

I do not see how the NHL will lose big with the US labour board(as JD pointed out 3/5 on the board are Republicans which means the PA might be up the impasse creek without a labour paddle)

President Bush in his State of the Union address said that a lot of fans are going to be disappointed if the MLB labour dispute does not get resolved.

Hockey does not have a ‘Bush’ who can put a lot of political pressure and scrutiny on both sides.

Paul Martin might be that man, but Martin is not even on the US radar and his influence is quite limited in the NHL(and the world) as only a handful of NHL teams are located in Canada.

O yes that is just what the NHL needs to get all of the players on the ‘Juice’

Does anyone think that all 730 players in the NHL are ‘clean’?

Players need to be retrained to open up the game so that the overall skill of the game can be exponentially increased and return to pre-Great One trade levels.

Steroids will only result in even more GOONS debuting in the NHL, and I do not see how that is going to sell that game in the US markets.

10 years even worse then the past decade has been for the game? I thought the NHL has hit rock bottom and could not possibly get any worst.

5 years(from this cancelled season) should see the game regaining some of its once solid footing as there will be 7 years worth of draft choices to replace most of the unrulies and skill-less players that have plagued the NHL for the past decade.

As for the PA(original thread topic) no one, including the players, can understand the stance they have decided to take in this lockout.

Standing on your principles might be good if you are also standing on reality and reason.