Hurricanes Lounge, XXXIII: Danger Zone

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Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
48,388
98,064
it’s why I’m selling and then renting for a year and thinking the market drops and then have the cash to make a deal.

Question is, will the market drop, or just stop accelerating? This isn't like 2008/9 where there was a huge amount of inventory, a ton of subprime loans, investment companies buying up bad loans, and appraisers artificially inflating the value of homes.

I'm not smart enough to know, but the inventory across the US still being very low makes me wonder how much of a "drop" will occur.
 

Unsustainable

Seth Jarvis is Elite
Apr 14, 2012
38,038
105,376
North Carolina
Question is, will the market drop, or just stop accelerating? This isn't like 2008/9 where there was a huge amount of inventory, a ton of subprime loans, investment companies buying up bad loans, and appraisers artificially inflating the value of homes.

I'm not smart enough to know, but the inventory across the US still being very low makes me wonder how much of a "drop" will occur.

well, you have Blackrock buying houses at 20-50% over value, I suspect they are banking on an eventual crash and bail out and then have a ton of rental capital

a house we liked went from 208k in March value to 317k here in June. 208k is fair for the location and price

250 would be over payment

I bought my house 16 years ago for 99k, but it’s going on the market for 210, and we will likely get 220+

so I can rent for a year and expect this spike to come back down
 

Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
48,388
98,064
a house we liked went from 208k in March value to 317k here in June. 208k is fair for the location and price

250 would be over payment

I bought my house 16 years ago for 99k, but it’s going on the market for 210, and we will likely get 220+

so I can rent for a year and expect this spike to come back down

Well, I wish you luck and hope it works out for you. Seems like there's not much downside even if the prices just level out and don't drop so could be a very good move for you. I agree the market over priced right now, just not sure how much it will come down when things level out, interest rates rise, etc...but I'm no expert by any means and I don't know your area that well either.

Just for reference during the worst housing crisis in ages (2009), the median home prices in this area didn't come back down much and that was with a huge oversupply of homes at the time (maybe dropped 20K). Particularly homes in the 200K-400K range as people bought those up quickly. Higher end homes took a beating though (a builder friend had a home that he turned down a $1.1M offer before the crash only to sell for ~$750K a few months later). I was told by a realtor that in 2008/9 there were 19,000 homes for sale before the crash. Before the pandemic, it was under 6000. WRAL a few weeks ago said there are only 1500 now so the factors are quite a bit different than last time.

Here's a trend of it:

house%20sale%20prices%20vs.%20median%20income.jpg
 
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Negan4Coach

Fantastic and Stochastic
Aug 31, 2017
5,814
14,759
Raleigh, NC
Question is, will the market drop, or just stop accelerating? This isn't like 2008/9 where there was a huge amount of inventory, a ton of subprime loans, investment companies buying up bad loans, and appraisers artificially inflating the value of homes.

I'm not smart enough to know, but the inventory across the US still being very low makes me wonder how much of a "drop" will occur.

I agree.

But what will put the brakes on the prices will be when the Fed is forced to jack rates up to quash this runaway inflation.

It's all fun and games taking out a loan for $800K when you only have to pay 2 points on it. When it becomes 8-12 points, fugghedaboutdit.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
48,388
98,064
I agree.

But what will put the brakes on the prices will be when the Fed is forced to jack rates up to quash this runaway inflation.

It's all fun and games taking out a loan for $800K when you only have to pay 2 points on it. When it becomes 8-12 points, fugghedaboutdit.

A lot of it will depend on inventory, but you are right that rates will play a role.

Two things though.
1) I'm not talking about the homes in that price range. I'm talking more near the median (which is about $340K right. now).
2) Do people still really pay points on loans with rates as low as they've been? I haven't paid points in ages and in the last 3 loans/refinances before selling my last home, didn't even pay closing costs (actually, think it was $300-400 closing cost).

People will still need home regardless of interest rates, but "upgrading" to a new, more expensive home will likely curtail.

The first mortgage I took out for my first home was over 8% and I remember all of my older relatives telling me what a great rate it was. My last rate before selling that house a year ago was under 3%. It was a variable rate, but since I was far enough along in the lifecycle, I didn't care if it went up after 5 years, but I sold just before the rate increased.

Hopefully nobody is/was taking variable rates now though.
 
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Anton Dubinchuk

aho
Sponsor
Jul 18, 2010
26,185
55,143
Atlanta, GA
Closing on our first home tomorrow, as first time homebuyers we are locked in at 3.125% without paying points.

After actually finding a home (which took 2 months as chronicled earlier in this thread), I'm thrilled with how it all worked out. Assessment actually came back $14k over the offer price, so we already feel like we got a deal. And with a rate that low we feel good about it all.
 

Negan4Coach

Fantastic and Stochastic
Aug 31, 2017
5,814
14,759
Raleigh, NC
A lot of it will depend on inventory, but you are right that rates will play a role.

Two things though.
1) I'm not talking about the homes in that price range. I'm talking more near the median (which is about $340K right. now).
2) Do people still really pay points on loans with rates as low as they've been? I haven't paid points in ages and in the last 3 loans/refinances before selling my last home, didn't even pay closing costs (actually, think it was $300-400 closing cost).

People will still need home regardless of interest rates, but "upgrading" to a new, more expensive home will likely curtail.

The first mortgage I took out for my first home was over 8% and I remember all of my older relatives telling me what a great rate it was. My last rate before selling that house a year ago was under 3%. It was a variable rate, but since I was far enough along in the lifecycle, I didn't care if it went up after 5 years, but I sold just before the rate increased.

Hopefully nobody is/was taking variable rates now though.

That is another good point- the variable rates completely f***ed over a lot of people in 2008. I don't think that happens now. You just get your 2% loan and off to the races, 3% on a "Jumbo" loan.

So yeah, 8% is likely not going to stop people from getting a $250K home. But all them houses ITB...
 

Nikishin Go Boom

Russian Bulldozer Consultent
Jul 31, 2017
22,060
51,639
Closing on our first home tomorrow, as first time homebuyers we are locked in at 3.125% without paying points.

After actually finding a home (which took 2 months as chronicled earlier in this thread), I'm thrilled with how it all worked out. Assessment actually came back $14k over the offer price, so we already feel like we got a deal. And with a rate that low we feel good about it all.
You get you a nice place in Forsyth County?
 

Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
48,388
98,064
Closing on our first home tomorrow, as first time homebuyers we are locked in at 3.125% without paying points.

After actually finding a home (which took 2 months as chronicled earlier in this thread), I'm thrilled with how it all worked out. Assessment actually came back $14k over the offer price, so we already feel like we got a deal. And with a rate that low we feel good about it all.

Yeah, that's about a perfect scenario with a rate that low. And with the tax changes a few years ago, it's harder for many people to itemize, largely due the the limits on SALT among other things, so you don't even get the benefit of deduction mortgage interest, at least for a lot of people. Deducting it took some of the sting out of higher rates.
 
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The Stranger

Registered User
May 4, 2014
1,233
2,077
I agree.

But what will put the brakes on the prices will be when the Fed is forced to jack rates up to quash this runaway inflation.

Jacking up the rates to fight inflation would make sense...but what about the fact that the US Gov't is running huge deficits...trillions...if the Fed jacks up that interest rate, the debt service portion of the "budget" will sky rocket. The Gov't is essentially funding itself by inflating the currency.

That is another good point- the variable rates completely f***ed over a lot of people in 2008. I don't think that happens now. You just get your 2% loan and off to the races, 3% on a "Jumbo" loan.

I've been curious about what percent of loans originated today are variable...sure the fixed rate is historically low, but how many people will be enticed to grab a 2.9% ARM instead of a 3.2% fixed (or whatever the spread is).

Investment firms buying up real estate is a strong signal they expect inflation...locking in a long-term loan on an asset and paying it off with devalued currency is a smart move.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
48,388
98,064
Jacking up the rates to fight inflation would make sense...but what about the fact that the US Gov't is running huge deficits...trillions...if the Fed jacks up that interest rate, the debt service portion of the "budget" will sky rocket. The Gov't is essentially funding itself by inflating the currency.

Yep

I've been curious about what percent of loans originated today are variable...sure the fixed rate is historically low, but how many people will be enticed to grab a 2.9% ARM instead of a 3.2% fixed (or whatever the spread is).

According to this, which was Sept 2020, the % of ARM loan applications was about 2.5%. Comparatively, in 2018 is was about 9%.

With Fixed Rates At Record Lows, Adjustable-Rate Mortgages Vanish | Bankrate

Investment firms buying up real estate is a strong signal they expect inflation...locking in a long-term loan on an asset and paying it off with devalued currency is a smart move.

Good point.
 
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NotOpie

"Puck don't lie"
Jun 12, 2006
9,287
17,879
North Carolina
We I've been tinkering with the OpenDoor process on the rental house we own. Got a preliminary offer that seemed too good to be true, so went through the next step of a video walk through followed by an exterior walk through. Got the "final offer" yesterday and was, frankly, floored.

I think I really didn't have a grasp on how hot the market is, especially in Chapel Hill. The preliminary offer was a good $200K above what I would have thought I could have sold the house for. After fees and revaluation from the video walk through, it is still a good $125K to $140K above what I had hoped to get out of the property. Still not sure what I'm going to do (we have very good long term tenants atm).

My thoughts on this whole thing are:

1. Good luck to all of you folks who are looking for a new home right now; I can only imagine.
2. I can't help but feel this market feels "frothy".
3. Then I think about Apple, Google, Fuji Film, etc. moving into the Triangle and can only imagine it getting worse or better depending on your perspective.
 
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Finnish Jerk Train

lol stupid mickey mouse organization
Apr 7, 2008
4,035
7,924
Raleigh
It took us a year and a half. To be fair, we relented on a lot of things that we wouldn't have in the beginning of our search (we're not afraid to renovate now, which opened up a lot of options). If we had always been as open-minded as we are now, we might have found something in late 2019 or early 2020.

On Monday, we locked at 2.875% on a 30 year fixed with like $1k in points, after originally being quoted 3.25% earlier in the day. Just had to show them what the online lenders were offering, and they got pretty close. Rates have already moved up about 1/8 point since then, so I'm glad we locked when we did. They also waived the origination fee and appraisal, even though we came in at 8% over list.

Opendoor gave us what appears to be a pretty competitive estimate, but we haven't moved forward. They don't know about our renovated bathrooms, so it's possible their number goes higher. We'll probably have the conversation with them, but right now I'm still thinking of testing the open market.

The market definitely feels frothy. Our budget went up $100k during our search, even though we don't have much more cash laying around than we did at the start. It's completely based on what we can sell our house for. Ignoring our renovations, it has appreciated about 50% in the five years we've owned it (half of that coming in the last 6 months). Compare that to the previous owners: they updated the kitchen, built a second deck, replaced probably $15k worth of systems, then sold to us for the exact same price they paid nine years before, just before the financial crisis. Or there's the townhouse we lived in before this house: it gained less than 15% in the five years my wife owned it, and it's up about 75-80% in the five years since (missed an opportunity there). Both properties are in north Raleigh, by the way.

You can't tell me this rate of appreciation is sustainable, but it doesn't seem like it's running out of steam anytime soon. And I don't see it going into reverse, just slowing down or plateauing at some point. The fundamentals seem solid and most of the buyers have the money to fund the offers they're making. That then leads to the question of, where is all this money coming from?

Personally, I'm looking at the Fed and all the stimulus that went out last year. And not just the stimulus checks that we all got... I'm wondering how badly the financial markets are distorted by the government printing money to buy assets, and whether that's now spilling over into the non-financial markets. Inflation is insane right now, especially relative to borrowing rates. The official line is it's a temporary blip, but I'm not convinced because so much money has been pumped into the economy. I think they're going to have to start shrinking their balance sheet and raising rates a lot sooner than they're saying publicly.

TL;DR: Everything's wild and your money isn't buying as much as it used to.
 
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Socks

Stuff and Things Man
Nov 14, 2007
11,531
5,704
Stuff and Things
Motherf***ers who drive at night and don't turn their lights on, how do you expect others to see you? How can you even see your instrument panel? I get if you're leaving a well-lit parking lot or something but around me there's a lot of poorly-lit streets, it should be pretty obvious.
Just think of it as a grand adventure...
 
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LakeLivin

Armchair Quarterback
Mar 11, 2016
4,729
13,632
North Carolina
In 1985 Bristol Myers decided to relocate our division from Evansville, IN to Wallingford, CT. There was a lot of expansion in the area, and from the point they announced it over the next few years housing demand shot up and prices skyrocketed, probably similar to what many areas are experiencing now. I decided not to make the move and in 1987 I took a job in RTP instead. A colleague who had relocated to Wallingford in '85 or '86 joined my new company shortly after that, and because of the amount he had made on his house in CT in under 2 years he had to actually search for a more expensive house in this area than he really wanted in order to avoid capital gains taxes (rules were different back then).

Shortly after that the bubble burst and most of the people that had relocated around the time I would have needed to found themselves well under water on their mortgages in CT.

I have no idea if that experience is at all relevant to today's environment. But I do know that bubbles can be real, and that they can be painful if you get caught on the wrong side of one.
 
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VAcaniac

SHOOT THE PUCK
Feb 16, 2007
9,788
25,304
Los Angeles
WTF -- NHL TV tells me I can't replay games any more because I'm not subscribed. I had a subscription for the season.

So, now there's no way to watch old games?

I subscribed to ESPN+ and there's nothing on there either.
 

Roboturner913

Registered User
Jul 3, 2012
25,853
55,526
Finally closed on the house Friday, left straight from the title place with a carload of boxes. Got in the house and ...... yep, that's right, the air conditioner was broken.

It's 91 degrees inside the house, and probably 95 upstairs. So much fun.

There's also something wrong with the refrigerator, which is brand new but somebody messed up in the install because the icemaker isn't working and the freezer is developing this thick sheet of ice on the shelf.

And the electronic doorknobs are wonky and we can't change the security code.

And the ADT equipment is all haywire and won't stop beeping every 30 seconds. I called ADT and told them they needed to come get their stuff or I'm going to smash it with an axe until it stops.

And the garage door opener keypad outside the garage doesn't work, and of course there's no remote. So I have to be inside the garage to open and close the door, and the stupid little sensor prevents me from hitting the button and simply dashing back out under the door.

So I have to back the car out of the garage, close the big door, go out the side door, through the back yard and in the house all the way from the back door to the front door, walk all the way back around the house and up the driveway (which is uphill) to get in the car.

I guess these are first world problems but goddamn
 
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Finnish Jerk Train

lol stupid mickey mouse organization
Apr 7, 2008
4,035
7,924
Raleigh
Finally closed on the house Friday, left straight from the title place with a carload of boxes. Got in the house and ...... yep, that's right, the air conditioner was broken.

It's 91 degrees inside the house, and probably 95 upstairs. So much fun.

There's also something wrong with the refrigerator, which is brand new but somebody messed up in the install because the icemaker isn't working and the freezer is developing this thick sheet of ice on the shelf.

And the electronic doorknobs are wonky and we can't change the security code.

And the ADT equipment is all haywire and won't stop beeping every 30 seconds. I called ADT and told them they needed to come get their stuff or I'm going to smash it with an axe until it stops.

And the garage door opener keypad outside the garage doesn't work, and of course there's no remote. So I have to be inside the garage to open and close the door, and the stupid little sensor prevents me from hitting the button and simply dashing back out under the door.

So I have to back the car out of the garage, close the big door, go out the side door, through the back yard and in the house all the way from the back door to the front door, walk all the way back around the house and up the driveway (which is uphill) to get in the car.

I guess these are first world problems but goddamn
Well shit, now I'm scared.
 

Roboturner913

Registered User
Jul 3, 2012
25,853
55,526
It took us a year and a half. To be fair, we relented on a lot of things that we wouldn't have in the beginning of our search (we're not afraid to renovate now, which opened up a lot of options). If we had always been as open-minded as we are now, we might have found something in late 2019 or early 2020.

On Monday, we locked at 2.875% on a 30 year fixed with like $1k in points, after originally being quoted 3.25% earlier in the day. Just had to show them what the online lenders were offering, and they got pretty close. Rates have already moved up about 1/8 point since then, so I'm glad we locked when we did. They also waived the origination fee and appraisal, even though we came in at 8% over list.

Opendoor gave us what appears to be a pretty competitive estimate, but we haven't moved forward. They don't know about our renovated bathrooms, so it's possible their number goes higher. We'll probably have the conversation with them, but right now I'm still thinking of testing the open market.

The market definitely feels frothy. Our budget went up $100k during our search, even though we don't have much more cash laying around than we did at the start. It's completely based on what we can sell our house for. Ignoring our renovations, it has appreciated about 50% in the five years we've owned it (half of that coming in the last 6 months). Compare that to the previous owners: they updated the kitchen, built a second deck, replaced probably $15k worth of systems, then sold to us for the exact same price they paid nine years before, just before the financial crisis. Or there's the townhouse we lived in before this house: it gained less than 15% in the five years my wife owned it, and it's up about 75-80% in the five years since (missed an opportunity there). Both properties are in north Raleigh, by the way.

You can't tell me this rate of appreciation is sustainable, but it doesn't seem like it's running out of steam anytime soon. And I don't see it going into reverse, just slowing down or plateauing at some point. The fundamentals seem solid and most of the buyers have the money to fund the offers they're making. That then leads to the question of, where is all this money coming from?

Personally, I'm looking at the Fed and all the stimulus that went out last year. And not just the stimulus checks that we all got... I'm wondering how badly the financial markets are distorted by the government printing money to buy assets, and whether that's now spilling over into the non-financial markets. Inflation is insane right now, especially relative to borrowing rates. The official line is it's a temporary blip, but I'm not convinced because so much money has been pumped into the economy. I think they're going to have to start shrinking their balance sheet and raising rates a lot sooner than they're saying publicly.

TL;DR: Everything's wild and your money isn't buying as much as it used to.

I deal with a lot of realtors and mortgage people in my job. Most of them seem to think that housing prices themselves are going to go down 10 or 12 percent within a year as supply comes back, but that's going to be offset some by interest rates going back up and things are going to plateau there for a while, if there are no more big events that upset the market further.

I feel like the smart move, if you were willing to do it, would be to sell now while things are hot. Find something to rent for say 18 months, then start the buying process next fall after the usual summer demand falls off a little bit. That's probably when you'll be able to get the best deal. I thought about doing that but I don't have the mental or physical energy to move twice in 18 months.
 
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