How to tank teams and alienate people.
- Thread starter HockeyinHD
- Start date
Heaton
Moderator
I would hope he could. Quick has a pretty average career sv% for a supposed elite goalie.
It is a little too early for me to project him but I like what I have seen so far. But he would have to be Hasek level for us to compete if we are weak down the middle going forward.
And that is asking too much from the kid. Expecting him to be a generational talent is way too much for him to shoulder. I feel he will be elite but generational is far too ambitious.
InjuredChoker
Registered User
Let me say at the start that I am, comparatively, rather restrained in my praise for Nyquist. I believe I am less effusive of his play and potential than most.
That said, when you're in the top 30 in goal scoring in the NHL you're a great goalscorer. And Tatar is better than Nyquist.
Then let's say Mrazek ends up being a top 6-10 goalie. That's a bit of a stretch but not a ridiculous reach. Are we talking about Crosby. Malkin and Letang circa 2009? Nope. Are we talking about a really strong core of young talent? Yep.
Look, if the expectation from some is that Detroit has to get Drew Doughty-level players from the draft, and numerous ones at that, in order to be considered to have a great young core of players, okay then. That's incredibly unlikely to happen short of a half decade of suck.
Shaman464
No u
WingedWheel1987
Registered User
That "great" core isn't great. Ovechkin in his rookie year outproduced the combined production of Nyquist and Tatar. Wingers don't win jack **** in the NHL, and if you are expecting them to turn Detroit into a contender again, you are going to be disappointed. Unless your definition of a contender means, "Make the playoffs and lose."
Not to mention that you can expect a drop off in their production when Z/D are either gone or have declined even further.
Petr Mrazek isn't going to be a top 6-10 goalie with the putrid defense in front of him. A defense that has nothing to look forward to. The Wings defense needs more than a great goalie if they plan to stop being the reason why the Wings are destined to lose in the playoffs every season.
If Detroit can't find elite defenseman in their draft range, and can't sign or trade for any, they are going nowhere. That's just the cold hard truth. You can choose to believe it or not, but that won't make it any less true.
Not to mention that you can expect a drop off in their production when Z/D are either gone or have declined even further.
Petr Mrazek isn't going to be a top 6-10 goalie with the putrid defense in front of him. A defense that has nothing to look forward to. The Wings defense needs more than a great goalie if they plan to stop being the reason why the Wings are destined to lose in the playoffs every season.
If Detroit can't find elite defenseman in their draft range, and can't sign or trade for any, they are going nowhere. That's just the cold hard truth. You can choose to believe it or not, but that won't make it any less true.
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Unfriendly Ghost
Kasper
What on earth makes you think this is a good comparison? Ovechkin in his rookie year outproduced the combined production of any two of the majority of players in the league. He had 52 goals and 106 points!
WingedWheel1987
Registered User
I'm emphasizing how inferior both of those players are to Ovi, and it still got Washington nowhere. If your best player is a winger, you probably won't see your team going on deep playoff runs.
If the Wings plan to contend for the cup again, they need to find at least one elite center and one elite defenseman. It's non negotiable.
Unfriendly Ghost
Kasper
That's looking pretty far ahead, though. First you rebuild, then you focus on landing those last few pieces that turn you into a cup contender. Most teams don't skip right to cup contender.
Heaton
Moderator
Here's a question, when will we know the rebuild is over? When we find out if Larkin is a true #1 center? Or when Datsyuk and Z are retired?
Shaman464
No u
I have to imagine with another top end Winger Jurco and Mantha are now more expendable. Possibly used to get right handed D-man?
Unfriendly Ghost
Kasper
Nah, the rebuild is over when Holland says it is. Even if the talent isn't there yet, which I suspect will happen.
Realistically, though, I think the rebuild can't be over until Datsyuk and Zetterberg have retired/taken depth roles and the team still makes the playoffs. Their impending retirement is the entire reason for rebuilding in the first place.
Or an increase as they aggregate more points from PP TOI and ES TOI. IMO we'll likely see their goal totals stagnate and their assist total climb through the aforementioned aggregation.
Only 5 teams in the NHL gave up fewer shots per game than Detroit last year, but... putrid. Okay.
Like 29 out of 30 other teams in the NHL.
Well sure... but to you 'nowhere' is 100ish points and a round or two deep in the playoffs, and that 'nowhere' is somewhere 12-15 teams each year don't get to very often, much less 24 or so times in a row.
Rebuild on the fly is never over. However some of the negative nancies might agree its over after the 3rd cup or so. Right around the time when it starts again.
Heaton
Moderator
Hey, if we were acquiring the pieces to build that way, I don't think people would be as negative.
Tatar has done just as well with Sheahan as he has with Datsyuk. He carries play regardless who he is with- so his production won't decline even when Z and D decline. He already produces without any help from them. If anything, Tatar should be playing 19 to 20 minutes a night already to get him close to 40 goals. He should be an elite winger if he's used more.
I'm not sure if an elite defenseman is required. Pitt didn't have one or Carolina or several winners in the pre Cap era. I think forward groups matter more and dictate play. An elite center is definitely required- they need Larkin to be one of the best #1 centers of his generation along with McDavid, Eichel and Monahan and whoever else.
But, you need a lot of supporting players and depth too. A few elite players won't win anything if they are saddled with garbage. The Wings forward prospect group, along with guys currently 26 and under in the NHL, is among the best in the league. Larkin has to pan out to reach its potential.
I'm not sure if an elite defenseman is required. Pitt didn't have one or Carolina or several winners in the pre Cap era. I think forward groups matter more and dictate play. An elite center is definitely required- they need Larkin to be one of the best #1 centers of his generation along with McDavid, Eichel and Monahan and whoever else.
But, you need a lot of supporting players and depth too. A few elite players won't win anything if they are saddled with garbage. The Wings forward prospect group, along with guys currently 26 and under in the NHL, is among the best in the league. Larkin has to pan out to reach its potential.
WingedWheel1987
Registered User
So you are OK with all the Wings problems because a lot of other teams suffer from those same problems. They suck, so it's OK if we suck too. How comforting...
You keep mentioning total shots allowed as if it proves the Wings have a good defense. If a team only gives up five shots a game, but all five shots are goals, does that team have a good defense? It's an extreme example, but i'm only using it to highlight how arguing the Wings shot limiting ability as proof that their defense is good doesn't add up.
Detroit's defensive deficiencies have been linked to making too many mistakes. Limiting shots is nice, but it doesn't mean much when the opposing team is basically going to get a minimum of one free goal a game because of the Wings low hockey IQ. I look at their low shot totals against, and it's frightening how the defense manages to routinely get exposed even with their ability to limit shots against.
OK, now i get it. You view 1st or 2nd round exits as a successful season. Now i understand why you have no problem with Holland. Getting to 100 points by going 43-39 is fantastic. Tampa only had 108 points. Some better goaltending and Detroit could have passed them. Let's just ignore the fact that Tampa ended up being 18 games over .500. The point differential is all that matters.
You keep mentioning total shots allowed as if it proves the Wings have a good defense. If a team only gives up five shots a game, but all five shots are goals, does that team have a good defense? It's an extreme example, but i'm only using it to highlight how arguing the Wings shot limiting ability as proof that their defense is good doesn't add up.
Detroit's defensive deficiencies have been linked to making too many mistakes. Limiting shots is nice, but it doesn't mean much when the opposing team is basically going to get a minimum of one free goal a game because of the Wings low hockey IQ. I look at their low shot totals against, and it's frightening how the defense manages to routinely get exposed even with their ability to limit shots against.
OK, now i get it. You view 1st or 2nd round exits as a successful season. Now i understand why you have no problem with Holland. Getting to 100 points by going 43-39 is fantastic. Tampa only had 108 points. Some better goaltending and Detroit could have passed them. Let's just ignore the fact that Tampa ended up being 18 games over .500. The point differential is all that matters.
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Frk It
Mo Seider Less Problems
- Jul 27, 2010
- 36,322
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When Kronwall and Z can't play the minutes they do anymore, and Datsyuk is gone.
So then one of Sheahan or Larkin has to step in and be a top 6 center, and a bunch of these kids on the back end have to be top 4 defenseman.
Then we have the real test of if this pipeline that seems good worked out or not.
A trade is going to be a necessity, but I don't think we will be able to get away with trading these unproven kids that look good in the AHL. We are probably going to have to trade good NHL players (forwards) for a good NHL defenseman. We just need to sell the right guys, and also trade for the right player. That will also be a huge component towards the success or failure of this "re-build".
Heaton
Moderator
If a trade is really going to happen, I wonder when that dam will break. This seems like the year, but Holland is content to go with the kids. If we make the playoffs, that will just re-inforced I think.
Frk It
Mo Seider Less Problems
- Jul 27, 2010
- 36,322
- 14,816
I'm as skeptical as anyone about Holland making a trade that would address the needs of the team, but I just don't think he will have a choice. If not now, then within the next year or two.
For 2 simple reasons:
1) We will develop more NHL-caliber forwards than we have room for.
2) The issue on our back end is not going to be solved by our current defensive prospects.
So I think this will mean he moves some guys from the forward stockpile, to address the weak blue line in some fashion. But I don't think this trade, if it come, will be as sexy as people think.
Would he part with the young forwards that actually have value like Tatar or Nyquist for a legit young defenseman? I really don't think so. I think it will be more of a Helm or Abdelkader type player for a veteran D like Bieksa or equivalent type move. Or it will be an unproven guy like Pulkkinen that gets moved.
Henkka
Registered User
Agree. Imo, Tatar plays better without Datsyuk than with Datsyuk. Whitout it's Tats who drives the play and someone like Sheahan compliments him perfectly. When he is put with Datsyuk, we don't get 100% out of him.
I think if people watched the team instead of draft position people wouldn't be so negative. I have no doubt that Holland will win yet another Stanley Cup in Detroit.
I agree with most of this but another option would be to trade for a promising 20-22 year old and develop him. Holland is going to do some trading this year or next. It is unavoidable. KLike you I don't expect a blockbuster but I do expect it will improve the team.
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