News Article: Holland nixed promotion that would have made Stevie GM

[The Zetterberg Era]

Holland is a good GM, it is really down to if he is the right GM anymore for this team. Similar to the Babcock conversation a year ago. Is he the best person moving forward, that is a tough question?

Will be honest I really liked the idea of bringing in Fenton and now approaching Holland with the same advisor role, things have changed maybe he moves upstairs now in that scenario.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Holland is a good GM, it is really down to if he is the right GM anymore for this team. Similar to the Babcock conversation a year ago. Is he the best person moving forward, that is a tough question?

Will be honest I really liked the idea of bringing in Fenton and now approaching Holland with the same advisor role, things have changed maybe he moves upstairs now in that scenario.

fenton and brisebois would be the first two guys i'd interview. maybe add guy like joe will too.


also... mike gillis/laurence gilman.. gillis made a his share of mistakes during his tenure but i like his approach and think he's a really sharp guy.. not saying i'd even hire him but i'd like to interview that guy.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Holland is a good GM, it is really down to if he is the right GM anymore for this team. Similar to the Babcock conversation a year ago. Is he the best person moving forward, that is a tough question?

Will be honest I really liked the idea of bringing in Fenton and now approaching Holland with the same advisor role, things have changed maybe he moves upstairs now in that scenario.

I don't really see how there is a credible argument for him being a good GM at this point. The game has passed him by. He hasn't really made many good moves the last 5-6 years. Certainly the number of good signings and trades he has made can be counted on one hand. Not too mention the his re-signings are often terrible nowadays. Is 1997-2009 Ken Holland a hall of famer? of course. But the game passes even the best by.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Considering Yzerman is a good GM, the former.

I don't think he's bad, I'm just not sure if he's good.

For example, going into last year he had hired three and fired two coaches, gone from a 3rd round team in year one to two straight playoff misses and then a round 1 exit via sweep.

Then he goes to the Finals.

I guess my point is, I think a lot of the 'Yzerman is a good GM' argument boils down to one deep playoff run and that he's Steve Yzerman, and we like the Captain. He whiffed on the 2010 draft, did well in 2011, whiffed 2012, may have whiffed 2013 if he can't get Drouin straightened out, leaving 14 and 15 to sort themselves out going forward.

The Filppula contract is awful, the Carle contract is awful, the Callahan deal is awful (and he traded St. Louis and a 2 to get it), and he may lose Stamkos.

Since he took over the Lightning are 29-24 in the playoffs, including this years round 1, and they missed them twice in 6 years.

Not bad, but not great either.

 

[InjuredChoker]

I don't think he's bad, I'm just not sure if he's good.

For example, going into last year he had hired three and fired two coaches, gone from a 3rd round team in year one to two straight playoff misses and then a round 1 exit via sweep.

Then he goes to the Finals.

I guess my point is, I think a lot of the 'Yzerman is a good GM' argument boils down to one deep playoff run and that he's Steve Yzerman, and we like the Captain. He whiffed on the 2010 draft, did well in 2011, whiffed 2012, may have whiffed 2013 if he can't get Drouin straightened out, leaving 14 and 15 to sort themselves out going forward.

The Filppula contract is awful, the Carle contract is awful, the Callahan deal is awful (and he traded St. Louis and a 2 to get it), and he may lose Stamkos.

Since he took over the Lightning are 29-24 in the playoffs, including this years round 1, and they missed them twice in 6 years.

Not bad, but not great either.

he also got 2 1st round picks along with callahan.

2012 draft wasn't a whiff for tampa, though it wasn't perfect either. vasilevskiy is going to be stud. pacquette is solid bottom 6er and koekkoek should be at least solid #4-#5 guy.

and which 3 coaches he has hired and which two he has fired?

also results aren't always the best way to judge GMs performance (esp. short-term). he could've taken short cuts and got better results in the first 6 years but that would've been mistake and they would be set-up for the future worse.

surprisingly i don't think i've seen you ragging on holland for offering filppula 7x4.75 M before yzerman signed him to 5x5.

 

[Chance on Chance]

Out of curiosity then is Stevie Y really lucky that Palat and Johnson are pillars to his team... Seems like luck in that scenario then correct?

You never know how guys are going to pan out. But the people in the room pushing the selection of Zetterberg and Datsyuk or Benn, Palat and Johnson (FA) deserve some credit. Yes if they knew what they were they would have attached forward more value. Still knowing where to actually pick someone is a part of the job.

There is also not a single job in the world where some level of power involves luck. If you think the guy that is running GM didn't have some lucky placements and teams of people to work with to work his way to his position I don't know what to tell you. Luck is a part of the equation. Lets hope whatever happens in the future the Wings continue to have lots of it.

He is, how may guys even after the 3rd turn out? them turning out as general NHL players. fine. but as stars is luck

 

[Dotter]

I don't think he's bad, I'm just not sure if he's good.

For example, going into last year he had hired three and fired two coaches, gone from a 3rd round team in year one to two straight playoff misses and then a round 1 exit via sweep.

Then he goes to the Finals.

I guess my point is, I think a lot of the 'Yzerman is a good GM' argument boils down to one deep playoff run and that he's Steve Yzerman, and we like the Captain. He whiffed on the 2010 draft, did well in 2011, whiffed 2012, may have whiffed 2013 if he can't get Drouin straightened out, leaving 14 and 15 to sort themselves out going forward.

The Filppula contract is awful, the Carle contract is awful, the Callahan deal is awful (and he traded St. Louis and a 2 to get it), and he may lose Stamkos.

Since he took over the Lightning are 29-24 in the playoffs, including this years round 1, and they missed them twice in 6 years.

Not bad, but not great either.

He's not bad, but he hasn't proven anything to be considered "good" for me yet. He fell in a situation that not even Mike Milbury could screw up. Well maybe he can, but you get the point...

You're points are all valid. I wouldn't trade Ken Holland for Yzerman right now. Maybe in 8 to 10 years, but not right now.

Yzerman needs a ways to go before I want him leading the charge in Detroit.

 

[InjuredChoker]

He's not bad, but he hasn't proven anything to be considered "good" for me yet. He fell in a situation that not even Mike Milbury could screw up. Well maybe he can, but you get the point...

You're points are all valid. I wouldn't trade Ken Holland for Yzerman right now. Maybe in 8 to 10 years, but not right now.

Yzerman needs a ways to go before I want him leading the charge in Detroit.

other than some of them not being true but i guess that's not very relevant.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

He's not bad, but he hasn't proven anything to be considered "good" for me yet. He fell in a situation that not even Mike Milbury could screw up. Well maybe he can, but you get the point...

You're points are all valid. I wouldn't trade Ken Holland for Yzerman right now. Maybe in 8 to 10 years, but not right now.

Yzerman needs a ways to go before I want him leading the charge in Detroit.

Mike Milbury's ability to screw things up has to be measured with Bench's favorite cesium atomic clock. It happens that fast.

 

[Squirrel in the Hole]

Sorry, this is all very curious.


When did Ilitch say this? What was the context? And, why now? What is his motivation for disclosing this now?


Stevie has been a great GM, but so has Holland, so what's the point? Other than a whole lot of hand-wringing and "might have been"?


It's all water under the bridge at this point.

 

[MTU hockey]

I don't think he's bad, I'm just not sure if he's good.

For example, going into last year he had hired three and fired two coaches, gone from a 3rd round team in year one to two straight playoff misses and then a round 1 exit via sweep.

Worth noting that Bishop was injured in that series and their backup (Lindback?) played that whole series, the talent drop off from Bishop to Lindback is pretty steep. And he hasn't hired three coaches, he has only hired two.

 

[KasperTheGrittyGhost]

Sorry, this is all very curious.


When did Ilitch say this? What was the context? And, why now? What is his motivation for disclosing this now?


Stevie has been a great GM, but so has Holland, so what's the point? Other than a whole lot of hand-wringing and "might have been"?


It's all water under the bridge at this point.

It was a passing comment by Illitch a few years ago, and a reporter dug it up and trotted it out as "news" to capitalize on the growing criticism of Holland.

 

[HockeyinHD]

2012 draft wasn't a whiff for tampa, though it wasn't perfect either.
vasilevskiy is going to be stud. pacquette is solid bottom 6er and koekkoek should be at least solid #4-#5 guy.

Maybe the goalie will be a stud, maybe not. Either way, it's unlikely to be for Tampa. As far as landing a bottom half goalie and a bottom half forward... I mean, if that's what you get in a draft, that's a draft whiff. I'm not going to serenade Holland for a great 2011 draft because he got Jurco and Marachenko in it, either.

surprisingly i don't think i've seen you ragging on holland for offering filppula 7x4.75 M before yzerman signed him to 5x5.

Depends. If the new standard is criticizing Holland for deals we think are bad that he allegedly offers but never actually happen, do we also credit him for making positive offers to players which he never actually signs, like Suter and Parise?

 

[jkutswings]

I don't think that is true. I think KH is doing everything that Ilitch's have asked of him. Make the playoffs, repair the future through a soft rebuild, and make them loads of easy $$$ off the "playoff appearances" propaganda.

Check
Check
&
Check

And all 3 of those goals are about to fall apart. Even if ownership is still squarely in Holland's corner, either Kenny makes some major changes for the better, or the slow slide continues, and he no longer does "everything that Ilitch's have asked of him".

 

[Dotter]

And all 3 of those goals are about to fall apart. Even if ownership is still squarely in Holland's corner, either Kenny makes some major changes for the better, or the slow slide continues, and he no longer does "everything that Ilitch's have asked of him".

My guess is Ilitch wants him to hang on as long as he can without mortgaging the future. Larkin and Mrazek are part of the future. Jarnkrok and Janmark are not. They had no future here as they were behind Sheahan and Glendenning.

Kronwall and Zetterberg will significantly regress while Nyquist, Larkin, Tatar, Sheahan, Dekeyser, Athanasiou and Mrazek will all get better.

I'm not ruling out another playoff appearance next season just yet.

 

[jkutswings]

Kronwall and Zetterberg will significantly regress while Nyquist, Larkin, Tatar, Sheahan, Dekeyser, Athanasiou and Mrazek will all get better.

I'm not ruling out another playoff appearance next season just yet.

Aha. Now I see where we agree to disagree. If that's your talent evaluation, that makes sense, but I see Nyquist, Tatar, and Dekeyser as all essentially leveling off and, "they are what they are".

 

[InjuredChoker]

Maybe the goalie will be a stud, maybe not. Either way, it's unlikely to be for Tampa. As far as landing a bottom half goalie and a bottom half forward... I mean, if that's what you get in a draft, that's a draft whiff. I'm not going to serenade Holland for a great 2011 draft because he got Jurco and Marachenko in it, either.

based on vasilevskiy's track record so far, he's far more likely to be stud goalie than a bottom half goalie. how many goalies with same track record as him at the age of 21 and have busted or didn't become more than a bottom half goalie? this season is the first time he's had below avg. SV% in a professional league, first in 6 and he was very good in AHL. that blood clot he suffered earlier this season might have had an impact on that.

koekkoek is also going to be at least solid #4/5 guy.

i'd say it's pretty likely to be for tampa. solid bottom 6er, #4/5D and a good goalie with a good chance to have a stud goalie seems like a pretty nice draft for me. not great but not whiff either.

which two coaches yzerman has fired and which three he has hired? can't seem to find that info anywhere.

Depends. If the new standard is criticizing Holland for deals we think are bad that he allegedly offers but never actually happen, do we also credit him for making positive offers to players which he never actually signs, like Suter and Parise?

well holland himself said he offered 7 years and slightly less money filppula got from tampa on a radio interview. with ken kal iirc.

yes, we can give credit for holland offering deals to suter and parise if the standard is that he's a total moron. only moron wouldn't have offered those deals. and actually parise offer was a joke offer that he was never going to accept. GM doesn't get credit if they offer stamkos 5 years at 6.5mil this offseason either when stamkos declines it. that deal would've have no chance of being accepted.

actual signings don't always tell the full picture. it's better to try to analyze the whole process. is holland a better GM bc filppula did not accept the offer (or robidas or boyle for even worse deals)? it's not on holland that filppula didn't sign the deal.. for both good and bad.

if flip's tampa deal is awful, then holland's offer to him is awful and weiss deal was even more awful. may be worth mentioning.

 

[InjuredChoker]

My guess is Ilitch wants him to hang on as long as he can without mortgaging the future. Larkin and Mrazek are part of the future. Jarnkrok and Janmark are not. They had no future here as they were behind Sheahan and Glendenning.

Kronwall and Zetterberg will significantly regress while Nyquist, Larkin, Tatar, Sheahan, Dekeyser, Athanasiou and Mrazek will all get better.

I'm not ruling out another playoff appearance next season just yet.

janmark is better than glendening and sheahan. järnkrok is better than glendening. and maybe sheahan, though sheahan was ahead at the time. nyquist turns 27 in september. he is what he is. tatar will probably be better than this season but i guess what we saw in 14-15 is about as good as it gets.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

i am all for trading prospects who're not part of our future but it should ONLY be for future picks or part of packages for long term players

janmark and jarnkrok for legwand and cole were desperation moves that stink of a lack of a plan and vision

its like selling your furniture to pay your mortgage instead of just getting a job

 

[Retire91]

I chalk this up for bad timing. At the time there was really no reason for Holland to consider stepping down as much as I would have liked to have seen this move. Almost everyone including myself loved Holland at the time but I thought Yzerman was going to take over. I was extremely disappointed the organization didn't put him in charge and he left. At the time as much as I liked Holland for the organizations future Yzerman was the man. The guy doesn't do anything but win everywhere he goes and was just starting his career out.

Would have liked to see Yzerman then and now, but its hard to be pissed about an organizational decision that made a lot of sense either way at the time.

 

[HockeyinHD]

based on vasilevskiy's track record so far, he's far more likely to be stud goalie than a bottom half goalie. how many goalies with same track record as him at the age of 21 and have busted or didn't become more than a bottom half goalie? this season is the first time he's had below avg. SV% in a professional league, first in 6 and he was very good in AHL. that blood clot he suffered earlier this season might have had an impact on that.

He has a career 2.60 and .913. He's 18-15. I think the most likely scenario for him is that he's a replacement level starter. He's never really played long enough at any one level for that league to get a read on him.

koekkoek is also going to be at least solid #4/5 guy.

Well, in 20 years let's all gather 'round the fire so's we can celebrate the rich bounty of landing a 4/5 guy in the draft.

If your standard of draft success includes a year where the team drafts two bottom half players and a mayyyybe starter goalie, possibly, eventually... well, there you go. You'll think Tampa's '12 draft is a good one then. You'll probably also think Detroit's '11 draft was a real crowd-pleaser too.

which two coaches yzerman has fired and which three he has hired? can't seem to find that info anywhere.

Ah, pedantry. Hiring and firing two guys is such a huge difference from hiring three and firing two. Why it's almost like it's a completely different situation entirely. It's like saying a guy is a goalscorer for scoring 39 and then pointing out that no, he really only scored 35.

Incredibly important correction.

yes, we can give credit for holland offering deals to suter and parise if the standard is that he's a total moron. only moron wouldn't have offered those deals.

So if Holland makes a good offer, he gets no credit because duh, everyone should be making good offers all the time anyway. If Holland makes a poor offer, he gets blamed.

Yes, that's just about how things usually work.

 

[Reddwit]

janmark is better than glendening and sheahan. järnkrok is better than glendening. and maybe sheahan, though sheahan was ahead at the time. nyquist turns 27 in september. he is what he is. tatar will probably be better than this season but i guess what we saw in 14-15 is about as good as it gets.

OT, but in the trade forums thread, a Preds fan said Preds management has referred to Jarnkrok as "their smartest player."

 

[InjuredChoker]

He has a career 2.60 and .913. He's 18-15. I think the most likely scenario for him is that he's a replacement level starter. He's never really played long enough at any one level for that league to get a read on him.

GAA and wins are not very relevant unless he can also play a skater too. how many 21 year olds have better numbers (and played have of those games after having a blood clor)? or his numbers in other leagues and international comps where we have much larger sample? or just based on his athleticism for that size and technical ability?

guess who had sv% of 0.912 at same age (though in more games)? carey price.

vasilevskiy has the highest sv% of all goalies during the cap era who have played at least 40 games at the age of 21. scoring-adjusted he probably won't be the best anymore but still pretty special.

so when you bring up his numbers and use that as a projection, it might be better to compare and project based on what other goalies at vasi's age had done. and vasi is basically ahead of them all. and that's after playing over half of during a season when he suffered a blood clot.

Well, in 20 years let's all gather 'round the fire so's we can celebrate the rich bounty of landing a 4/5 guy in the draft.

If your standard of draft success includes a year where the team drafts two bottom half players and a mayyyybe starter goalie, possibly, eventually... well, there you go. You'll think Tampa's '12 draft is a good one then. You'll probably also think Detroit's '11 draft was a real crowd-pleaser too.

except vasilevskiy is more likely to be elite goalie than a 'mayyybe' starting goalie. you're pretty much the first one i've ever seen him call likely replacement level starter, and i've talked in person and on message boards and read opinions about vasi for hundreds of people. some of them have actually watched him play

Ah, pedantry. Hiring and firing two guys is such a huge difference from hiring three and firing two. Why it's almost like it's a completely different situation entirely. It's like saying a guy is a goalscorer for scoring 39 and then pointing out that no, he really only scored 35.

Incredibly important correction.

not quite since many GMs don't get to hire 3 coaches. many GMs get canned before they get the opportunity to hire 3 coaches. little things like things seem to happen pretty often with you. like forgetting that yzerman also got two 1s along with callahan and giving up the conditional 2 for re-signing him.

So if Holland makes a good offer, he gets no credit because duh, everyone should be making good offers all the time anyway. If Holland makes a poor offer, he gets blamed.

Yes, that's just about how things usually work.

no, it's because those offers weren't/wouldn't be good. everyone can offer good money for good player (or worse bad money for a good player). or take mcdavid with the 1st overall pick. or not trade crosby for bobby ryan. i give him credit for good offers/moves he's made. not for joke offers or stuff that anyone could make/wouldn't make. i wouldn't give any GM credit for making those offers that holland made for parise/suter. you're probably the only person in the world who would do that.

surprisingly you only brought up the bad signings yzerman had done. you don't seem to do that much when it comes to kenny. even when he makes even worse offers. or bring up the circumstances when the signing/re-signing was made. tampa's D was even in worse shape than wings D when tampa signed carle compared to when wings re-signed ericsson. with the exception that carle was/is the better player with much better track record under him. not that it still wasn't a bad signing. it was.

 

[HockeyinHD]

guess who had sv% of 0.912 at same age (though in more games)? carey price.

vasilevskiy has the highest sv% of all goalies during the cap era who have played at least 40 games at the age of 21.

... against left handers in night games in July at National League parks with attendance over 32,364 that were televised on ESPN...

so when you bring up his numbers and use that as a projection

Well, that's your problem right there then: I wasn't using it as a projection. He hasn't been great so far. Ok, not great. He hasn't played at any level long enough to have much of a book. If you're going to announce the guy as a potential stud, hey, it's your analysis so do what you want with it. I'm just pointing out I don't think there's much to support it. There's not much to denounce it, either... but that's kind of the point with young players. Citing 'track record' when there isn't much track can be problematic.

except vasilevskiy is more likely to be elite goalie than a 'mayyybe' starting goalie. you're pretty much the first one i've ever seen him call likely replacement level starter, and i've talked in person and on message boards and read opinions about vasi for hundreds of people. some of them have actually watched him play

not quite since many GMs don't get to hire 3 coaches. many GMs get canned before they get the opportunity to hire 3 coaches.

So, you're saying Yzerman is so good he's on his last coach before he gets canned?

i wouldn't give any GM credit for making those offers that holland made for parise/suter. you're probably the only person in the world who would do that.

I see. So, good offers don't count. Bad offers do count. Got it.

surprisingly you only brought up the bad signings yzerman had done.

Well, hang on a second. Now I'm confused. I thought good moves don't count because any GM could do them, but bad moves do count because they're mistakes? Weird. It's like the standards are shifting around here or something based on who you're talking about.

you don't seem to do that much when it comes to kenny.

That's just an issue of you being unfamiliar with what I've said regarding Holland. Not a big deal.

tampa's D was even in worse shape than wings D when tampa signed carle compared to when wings re-signed ericsson.

Kronwall
Dekeyser
Quincey
Smith
Kindl
Lashoff

Brewer
Hedman
Kubina
Bergeron
Clark
Bunch of dudes

I don't know about that.

 

[InjuredChoker]

... against left handers in night games in July at National League parks with attendance over 32,364 that were televised on ESPN...

Well, that's your problem right there then: I wasn't using it as a projection. He hasn't been great so far. Ok, not great. He hasn't played at any level long enough to have much of a book. If you're going to announce the guy as a potential stud, hey, it's your analysis so do what you want with it. I'm just pointing out I don't think there's much to support it. There's not much to denounce it, either... but that's kind of the point with young players. Citing 'track record' when there isn't much track can be problematic.

that's the same thing with all young goalies and players, limited track record. but based on what vasi has done for far in international competitions, KHL, AHL and NHL, it's pretty likely that he will be a damn good goalie.

can you name one goalie like vasilevksiy and his track record so far who in the past 10 years or so hasn't become a very good goalie? what vasi has done so far is pretty exceptional. it's likely that he will become and exceptional goalie based on that and his skillset. same as it was/is that mcdavid will become one of the best players, if not the best in the league.

but i think it was you who originally brought up his numbers to cite that he likely won't be nothing more than a replacement goalie. can you name goalies who had as good numbers in the same age and didn't become more than replacement goalies?

not just my analysis either. it's based on lot of people's opinions, some who are pretty respected people in scouting/hockey in general.

So, you're saying Yzerman is so good he's on his last coach before he gets canned?

you might want to read that again.

I see. So, good offers don't count. Bad offers do count. Got it.

Well, hang on a second. Now I'm confused. I thought good moves don't count because any GM could do them, but bad moves do count because they're mistakes? Weird. It's like the standards are shifting around here or something based on who you're talking about.

good offer/move is not the same as joke/move offer and/or something that everyone with a brain can make. parise offer was more of a bad move if he actually wanted to sign the guy badly (i don't think he did). based on holland's track record of signings/offers he's made the past 5 years or so (suter, parise, brunner, samuelsson, tootoo, filppula, andersson, weiss, niskanen, boyle, gilbert, robidas, green, richards and maybe some others i'm forgetting).. there's way too much bad stuff there. compare that to yzerman.

That's just an issue of you being unfamiliar with what I've said regarding Holland. Not a big deal.

sure, that must be it.

Kronwall
Dekeyser
Quincey
Smith
Kindl
Lashoff

Brewer
Hedman
Kubina
Bergeron
Clark
Bunch of dudes

I don't know about that.

the list below has one top 5 defenseman. the above list has 4. or change that criteria to NHL defenseman or whatever. best player is on tampa but they had nothing else.