News Article: Holland nixed promotion that would have made Stevie GM

[InjuredChoker]

You are basing what they've done the past 6 years with a GM who's owner wants to keep the playoff streak alive and never get top picks, to a GM who inherited a team with Hedman, Stamkos and had the benefit of tanking for top 10 picks.

Give Ken Holland a few free Hedmans and Stamkos on RFA contracts + top 3 draft pick and see what happens

Fact is, KH is a proven winner as GM. Yzerman isn't, even with all that free talent he inherented.

without lidström, the talent he inherited, it's been nothing more than a 1st round loss team 3 out of 4. we'll see what happens next year.

holland hasn't done very good job if his intention is to keep the streak alive. it's gonna end soon. probably next year. past 4 seasons they've been couple of bounces away from it being over.

plus i'm evaluating yzerman largely what he's done outside of those top draft picks.

 

[Stats01]

Holland is an egomaniac..guy was a GM for 15+ years and declines a promotion. WOW! By the way Holland hasn't done anything noteworthy since Nill has left. He can thank all his scouts for finding the talent on his team i.e Datsyuk, Zetterberg etc. What a terrible decision

 

[InjuredChoker]

Holland is an egomaniac..guy was a GM for 15+ years and declines a promotion. WOW! By the way Holland hasn't done anything noteworthy since Nill has left. He can thank all his scouts for finding the talent on his team i.e Datsyuk, Zetterberg etc. What a terrible decision

show me a GM who isn't an egomaniac and i'll show you a terrible GM.

no one would've accepted 'promotion' in his position at the time.

 

[Dotter]

without lidström, the talent he inherited, it's been nothing more than a 1st round loss team 3 out of 4. we'll see what happens next year.

holland hasn't done very good job if his intention is to keep the streak alive. it's gonna end soon. probably next year. past 4 seasons they've been couple of bounces away from it being over.

plus i'm evaluating yzerman largely what he's done outside of those top draft picks.

Was it "inherited" when he was director of armature scouting and, possibly, early parts of the three headed monster at the time Lids was drafted?

He had his hands in the machine during that time, none the less.

 

[Stats01]

show me a GM who isn't an egomaniac and i'll show you a terrible GM.

no one would've declined 'promotion' in his position at the time.

he did though lol for as much respect as Holland says he has for Yzerman that was a big slap in the face to him.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

show me a GM who isn't an egomaniac and i'll show you a terrible GM.

no one would've declined 'promotion' in his position at the time.

If you had a chance to go down as the greatest gm of all time. You would have done it

 

[Heaton]

I don't think that is true. I think KH is doing everything that Ilitch's have asked of him. Make the playoffs, repair the future through a soft rebuild, and make them loads of easy $$$ off the "playoff appearances" propaganda.

Check
Check
&
Check

Holland could've done all of that without putting them in this ugly position. Even if they went into a straight rebuild right now they'd get 2 easy $$ years out of the new arena despite missing the playoffs.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Was it "inherited" when he was director of armature scouting and, possibly, early parts of the three headed monster at the time Lids was drafted?

He had his hands in the machine during that time, none the less.

except he wasn't director of amateur scouting at the time. he was western scout. neil smith was the director of amateur scouting. there are tons of articles on this and on many of them it's coming from hollands mouth.

also for how badly he screwed up drouin situation, meaning he will get little to no value for a 3rd ovr. pick (or whatever you said about it at the time), things seem to go pretty well with that right now.

 

[Claypool]

Ken Holland isn't a great GM at all. Any success he's had in his career can be directly attributed to other members of the staff. His entire career has been one giant luck streak. Am I doing it right?

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

At the very least he should've retired when Lidstrom did, like he often joked he would. Because he clearly ran out of ideas around that time.

 

[Heaton]

Ken Holland isn't a great GM at all. Any success he's had in his career can be directly attributed to other members of the staff. His entire career has been one giant luck streak. Am I doing it right?

Holland did a fantastic job maintaining a high level team for a while. Now that all of his ammo is gone, he doesn't have the ability to build a team since he's never done it. It's why some coaches are able to get teams to a level and then they can't get to the next level and you have to bring someone else in. Scotty Bowman wasn't a great development coach, but he could make a team ready to get to the next level get to that level.

 

[InjuredChoker]

that probably suited/suits kenny the best because he's good at keeping his own players, finding good people, not overreacting to playoffs series and and other losses and doesn't panic.. though he's gotten away from that last part in the past few seasons

 

[Dotter]

except he wasn't director of amateur scouting at the time. he was western scout. neil smith was the director of amateur scouting. there are tons of articles on this and on many of them it's coming from hollands mouth.

also for how badly he screwed up drouin situation, meaning he will get little to no value for a 3rd ovr. pick (or whatever you said about it at the time), things seem to go pretty well with that right now.

This source says he was. http://www.eliteprospects.com/staff.php?staff=324

/shrugs

 

[InjuredChoker]

This source says he was. http://www.eliteprospects.com/staff.php?staff=324

/shrugs

kenny himself seems to disagree.

Impressed and knowing NHL Central Scouting hadn't ranked Lidstrom high, Rockstrom wanted Red Wings director of scouting Neil Smith to see for himself.

"That wouldn't happen today," said Red Wings GM Ken Holland, who was a western scout at the time. "I don't know how we got him in the third round, but I know he's a top-10 pick today."

https://www.nhl.com/news/lidstrom-w...to-red-wings-hall-of-fame-defenceman/c-786078

In July 1989, Detroit scouting director Neil Smith left the Red Wings to become GM of the Rangers.

http://www.si.com/nhl/2015/03/19/ha...-wings-scout-sports-illustrated-feature-story

“At the time of that draft, Hockeytown was Yzerman, [coach Jacques] Demers, [owner Mike] Ilitch and the Bruise Brothers [Bob Probert and Joe Kocur],†says Detroit general manager Ken Holland, the team’s Western junior scout in 1989. “The franchise had come back after some down times. Those men put hockey back on the map here, but that draft sustained it. We’re still living off it.â€

http://kuklaskorner.com/index.php/a2...ts_draft_of_89

Late in the 1989 draft, says Neil Smith, then the Wings’ chief scout, “we’d literally run out of names. After the 10th round, I said to Christer, ‘Who you got now?’ He says, ‘Remember the captain from the fighting team in Piestany? We should take him because he’s really, really tough.’ â€

http://redwings.nhl.com/club/news.ht...vid=DET-search

Detroit general manager Ken Holland, who was a western amateur scout with the franchise in 1989 when it drafted Lidstrom in the third round, marvels at his relentless attention to detail on a daily basis.

http://redwings.nhl.com/club/news.ht...vid=DET-search

"At our midwinter meetings that year, Christer told our chief scout, Neil Smith, that we found our third-round pick," Holland recalled. "He was pretty confident that no one knew Nick was out there."

http://www.twincities.com/wild/ci_18312561

Detroit Red Wings general manager Ken Holland was a Western Canada scout for the club in 1989 when he first heard of Nicklas Lidstrom. Christer Rockstrom, the Red Wings' European scout at the time, brought up the name during mid-winter meetings.

"Christer talked about Nick Lidstrom, and Neil Smith, the chief amateur scout, went over to Sweden and they both saw him playing in a (lower level) league off the beaten path,'' Holland said. "They were both confident nobody would be aware of him, and that's the way it turned out.''

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index....hirdround.html

The Wings indeed were impressed with Holland's work ethic and willingness to trek all over North America and Europe looking at top young draft prospects. And when Smith left the Wings to take the job as general manager of the New York Rangers, Holland was elevated to chief scout.

http://www.foxsports.com/detroit/sto...detroit-052615

 

[guinness]

This news is literally 6 years old. A direct quote from Ilitch saying this stuff was posted in an article on mlive in 2010.

Because it's the Wings off-season, and people on this board hate Holland and (insert coach). Before Holland, it was Bowman, before that, Murray. It's the Detroit thing to hate the goalie, the Lions QB, and the various GMs.

The Wings in the last 25 years have probably flamed out in the 1st round like 10 times...

The roster just isn't talented enough for a deep run, they've never been able to replace Lids and Rafalski. Ericsson and Kronwall are just are not as capable. But they're basically what they have, along with and guys like Quincy, Smith, and Dekeyser. That defense isn't going to do what what a HoF'er did.

The team lucked out in drafting Z, Dats, and Larkin, but now Z and Dats are old, Dats is leaving, and that leaves Larkin and a lot of unproven pieces. They probably got as far as the talent could take them. I'm sort of excited to see what the GR kids could do, if given more playing time.

They need to figure out what to do with Howard too.

The current team isn't the quality of team from the SC winning years by a long shot, the talent isn't there, and they'll probably never get another 1989 draft class. There's only so much Holland can probably work with, between a salary cap and bare cupboard, but I find it disingenuous to ignore that Yzerman walked into a team with Stamkos and Hedman when comparing the two teams, as of now, and he might be losing Stamkos.

Stevie will always be the Captain, but lets wait before we start crowing him as a GM.

 

[Bob Probert Owns You]

While it's interesting background on what happened with Stevie Y, I do not think Yzerman would have "cleaned house" as the Wings GM. I think the only really difference may have been in FA approach, which given the recent pickings, has been quite slim.

 

[Chance on Chance]

Ken Holland isn't a great GM at all. Any success he's had in his career can be directly attributed to other members of the staff. His entire career has been one giant luck streak. Am I doing it right?

to be honest getting Z and D that late in the draft is luck. I'd say round 1-4 are skill and past that is pure luck

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

why do people bring up what holland did as a scout as a check mark on his managerial resume?

might as well include his job in radio/broadcasting as well

the only fair comparision is to start form the day Yzerman was doing the exact same job and extracting the lottery picks yzerman inherited/got

everything else is fair game, draft picks outside the lottery pick zone, free agent signings, trades, etc(or otherwise known as "THE JOB OF A GENERAL MANAGER" said a beer style mountain man voice)

 

[Claypool]

to be honest getting Z and D that late in the draft is luck. I'd say round 1-4 are skill and past that is pure luck

So it takes skill to draft Crosby or McDavid 1st overall? lol

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

So it takes skill to draft Crosby or McDavid 1st overall? lol

nope it dosent take skill within the top 5 as those are almost set in stone a year before the draft

outside that it does

 

[HockeyinHD]

I'm curious: do people thing Yzerman is a good (as in, better than replacement level) GM, or is this just an 'Anybody But Kenny' kind of thing?

 

[HockeyinHD]

why do people bring up what holland did as a scout as a check mark on his managerial resume?

Because scouting involves player assessment and valuation?

 

[InjuredChoker]

I'm curious: do people thing Yzerman is a good (as in, better than replacement level) GM, or is this just an 'Anybody But Kenny' kind of thing?

i think he's good. top 10. maybe top 5 but not much better. has had his share of misses that have been costly or will be costly. and not just in hindsight.

loved what they had done at the draft before last year.. last year i think they got away from the draft strategy that made them successful and don't think there will be lot of successful NHLers from that group.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

to be honest getting Z and D that late in the draft is luck. I'd say round 1-4 are skill and past that is pure luck

Out of curiosity then is Stevie Y really lucky that Palat and Johnson are pillars to his team... Seems like luck in that scenario then correct?

You never know how guys are going to pan out. But the people in the room pushing the selection of Zetterberg and Datsyuk or Benn, Palat and Johnson (FA) deserve some credit. Yes if they knew what they were they would have attached forward more value. Still knowing where to actually pick someone is a part of the job.

There is also not a single job in the world where some level of power involves luck. If you think the guy that is running GM didn't have some lucky placements and teams of people to work with to work his way to his position I don't know what to tell you. Luck is a part of the equation. Lets hope whatever happens in the future the Wings continue to have lots of it.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

I'm curious: do people thing Yzerman is a good (as in, better than replacement level) GM, or is this just an 'Anybody But Kenny' kind of thing?

Considering Yzerman is a good GM, the former.