HOH Top 60 Wingers of All Time

[Theokritos]

He didn't actually compete against any of them except St. Louis and Hossa though. His competition was literally Guerin and Kovalev in two of the years, that's not even opinion, that's just what the all star balloting showed.

True, this applies to his All-star ballots. However, it does not apply to his Hart voting record where he did pretty well at the same time while the competition was not restricted to RWs.

 

[Plural]

With the way Patrick Kane has been playing in recent, he's probably leapfrogged a lot of guys on the list. Where would you reasonably think he now is? Around Elias?

 

[tarheelhockey]

With the way Patrick Kane has been playing in recent, he's probably leapfrogged a lot of guys on the list. Where would you reasonably think he now is? Around Elias?

If Kane blew out his knee tomorrow and didn't play anymore, would his career have been better than Kariya's (#37)? Off the top of my head, I think so.

How about Bure (#29)? That one makes me hesitate and I suspect there would be a lack of consensus. So probably around #30-35 at the moment.

He's clearly on track IMO for St Louis (#25) territory. I have my doubts that he'll break into the top-20, where you have the real all-time heavyweights, but still he's putting together a damn fine career. A strong finish to this season, where top-3 placements in all three scoring categories are there for the taking, would help move him forward.

 

[MXD]

What happens if a player is better than Iginla and worse than MSL? Does he end up nowhere?

 

[Plural]

If Kane blew out his knee tomorrow and didn't play anymore, would his career have been better than Kariya's (#37)? Off the top of my head, I think so.

How about Bure (#29)? That one makes me hesitate and I suspect there would be a lack of consensus. So probably around #30-35 at the moment.

He's clearly on track IMO for St Louis (#25) territory. I have my doubts that he'll break into the top-20, where you have the real all-time heavyweights, but still he's putting together a damn fine career. A strong finish to this season, where top-3 placements in all three scoring categories are there for the taking, would help move him forward.

The only issue I have with Kariya vs. Kane today is that Kariya took his step to the "top-tier" in his second season. Kane, while good to great player from the get go matched Kariya in peak play in his 9th season. Then again, Kariya has three seasons in the upper-tier and I'm not sure if his best is as good as Kane's. Maybe the difference is negligible but Art/Hart/Lindsay has a nice ring to it.

I think Bure is too high anyways, I think he's closer to Kariya than he is St.Louis.

I guess the question is, how much value does Kane's good but not spectacular first 8 seasons have? His 09-10 season seems better on paper than I remembered though, so maybe that could be counted as "top-tier" season? His good reputation and record in playoffs certainly help. Top-20 would mean he needs to be considered better than Kurri or Brett Hull. That's a tall order. But considering how long careers modern day elite players can have, I think there's an outside shot.

 

[Plural]

What happens if a player is better than Iginla and worse than MSL? Does he end up nowhere?

I can't come up with anything witty here.

 

[Sentinel]

Here is where it's "better career" vs. "greater player." While Kane already has better career than Bure and Kariya, I just do not see him as a better player than them. Those two were the sheer terror of NHL. I am not sure Kane is quite as dominant.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Here is where it's "better career" vs. "greater player." While Kane already has better career than Bure and Kariya, I just do not see him as a better player than them. Those two were the sheer terror of NHL. I am not sure Kane is quite as dominant.

I don't see why you think Kariya and Bure were more dominant than Kane.They all looked pretty much equally dominant in their few best seasons, with Kane having the best season out of the group (2016) and Bure obviously being a more dominant goalscorer and perhaps the most spectacular player (though Kane and Kariya were also very spectacular).Also, Kariya's playoff resume is weak, Bure is good but Kane is great.

Kane has also been "the sheer terror of the NHL" for three or four years.

 

[Neutrinos]

With the way Patrick Kane has been playing in recent, he's probably leapfrogged a lot of guys on the list. Where would you reasonably think he now is? Around Elias?

I think Kane is a tier above Elias

 

[daver]

Now that the season has ended for them, any movement by Kane and OV on the list?

 

[Batis]

Since this list was made I would say that Ovechkin definitely has entered the discussion for the 5-8 range. I would personally probably still rank Makarov and Lafleur ahead of Ovechkin though. Part of the reason why is that both Makarov and Lafleur was excellent "big game" players* in their primes while being very much comparable to Ovechkin when it comes to prime regular season performances.

* Lafleur with his great playoff performances during the dynasty years and Makarov with his dominance in major international tournaments (which for a Soviet player could be considered their playoffs) during his prime. One indication of Makarovs performances in big games is his numbers against best on best Team Canada in Canada Cup competition (12 points in 8 games) and his numbers against Czechoslovakia in major international tournaments (30 points in 26 games).

Don't get me wrong Ovechkin has for the most part been a very good/great player in both the playoffs and major international tournaments but he has generally* not been able to take things over in the big games in the way that Makarov and Lafleur consistently did in their primes. I do think that Ovechkin is on the same level as Makarov and Lafleur as a player though but the "big game" performances of these players is something that for now keeps them ahead of Ovechkin. At least in my opinion.

* Sometimes Ovechkin has played at an incredibly high level in "big games" of course. Like in the 2009 series against Pittsburgh. He has in my opinion not been able to do it as consistently as Makarov and Lafleur though.

 

[seventieslord]

Since this list was made I would say that Ovechkin definitely has entered the discussion for the 5-8 range. I would personally probably still rank Makarov and Lafleur ahead of Ovechkin though. Part of the reason why is that both Makarov and Lafleur was excellent "big game" players* in their primes while being very much comparable to Ovechkin when it comes to prime regular season performances.

* Lafleur with his great playoff performances during the dynasty years and Makarov with his dominance in major international tournaments (which for a Soviet player could be considered their playoffs) during his prime. One indication of Makarovs performances in big games is his numbers against best on best Team Canada in Canada Cup competition (12 points in 8 games) and his numbers against Czechoslovakia in major international tournaments (30 points in 26 games).

Don't get me wrong Ovechkin has for the most part been a very good/great player in both the playoffs and major international tournaments but he has generally not been able to take things over in the big games in the way that Makarov and Lafleur consistently did in their primes. I do think that Ovechkin is on the same level as Makarov and Lafleur as a player though but the "big game" performances of these players is something that for now keeps them ahead of Ovechkin. At least in my opinion.

I agree as well. I think he's passed Bossy by now, and whether he's passed Cook or not probably depends largely on how much you respect older players. But Makarov and Lafleur are modern enough, with regular season records to keep up with his and big game records far, far, far better.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

2016-17 was so far below the level of play that gets someone into the top 10 wingers of all-time that it added literally nothing to Ovechkin's resume.

For comparison, nobody really cares what Lafleur did outside his big 6 years.

 

[seventieslord]

2016-17 was so far below the level of play that gets someone into the top 10 wingers of all-time that it added literally nothing to Ovechkin's resume.

For comparison, nobody really cares what Lafleur did outside his big 6 years.

A season like Ovechkin just had would be something we'd maybe discuss if he was 35th, and how far up it moves him. One spot? two? But if you're already 7th-9th, that season doesn't mean squat.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

* Sometimes Ovechkin has played at an incredibly high level in "big games" of course. Like in the 2009 series against Pittsburgh. He has in my opinion not been able to do it as consistently as Makarov and Lafleur though.

About 5 years ago, Ovechkin was on the short list of "best playoff performers of all-time without a Cup" on this forum. The consensus was generally that he played excellent hockey in the playoffs and was regularly let down by teammates like Green, Semin, or the revolving door of goalies. Maybe Ovechkin wasn't a good leader,. It his own play was as good as could be expected.

But over the last several playoffs, his own play has been a big part of the problem.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

As for Kane, he has to be above Kariya by now. Kane vs Bure would require a closer look.

Of course, Bure and Kariya were both a little too high on the list

 

[BenchBrawl]

What happens if a player is better than Iginla and worse than MSL? Does he end up nowhere?

That's Kane after next season if he ends up with another Top 2-5 finish in points.Actually he might beat them both.

 

[vippe]

Assuming this was compiled before the start of 14-15 Ovechkin has amassed another 185 goals, 123 assists for a total of 308 points while also earning 3 rockets, a cup and a Smythe.

Where do you think he would land if it was a new vote hold today?

 

[bobholly39]

Assuming this was compiled before the start of 14-15 Ovechkin has amassed another 185 goals, 123 assists for a total of 308 points while also earning 3 rockets, a cup and a Smythe.

Where do you think he would land if it was a new vote hold today?

Pretty easily #5 imo.

Some might argue behind Lafleur but its a stretch.

You could also argue ahead of Jagr Hull or Richard - and i think by the end of his career he'll very possibly have a strong argument there - but the safer placement has him at 5 now.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, at least 7th, at best, what, 3...? I think 5 is the right answer though for now...

 

[The Macho King]

Yeah, at least 7th, at best, what, 3...? I think 5 is the right answer though for now...

I'd put him over Jagr pretty comfortably. Jagr won his Art Ross trophies in a league in transition - no real offensive star forwards (best forwards were all two-way guys who often sacrificed offense for defense). And of course one of the years he won it was a tie. I just find Ovechkin's consistent goalscoring more impressive.

Howe
Hull
Richard
Ovi
Lafleur
Jagr

I'm probably lower on Jagr than most though.

 

[Sentinel]

For me it's like this:

Howe
Richard / Hull / Makarov / Jagr / Ovechkin
(Exact order changing daily)

 

[Daximus]

In leaning heavily towards Ovechkin at 2/3 right now between him and Hull. Jagr, Richard, Makarov, Lafleur, Bossy, Conacher are next to sort out. Digging through the data. Going to start really looking at scoring by each players era pretty quick. Then I have to look at teammates.

 

[MXD]

I don't think Ovechkin < Lafleur is even sustainable at this point. That would probably place him above Makarov as well (since Lafleur > Makarov is absolutely sustainable even if it's a position I disagree with).

 

[BenchBrawl]

I don't think Ovechkin < Lafleur is even sustainable at this point. That would probably place him above Makarov as well (since Lafleur > Makarov is absolutely sustainable even if it's a position I disagree with).

I'm sustaining it.Lafleur better playoff performer by far, top player of dynasty.Ovechkin has been a luxurious compiler for a few years now.Great goalscorer but that was the end of it, until he had that cup run.

Also Lafleur's prime was probably longer than Ovechkin's.I mean when they were actual all-around offensive threat.This hasn't been the case for Ovechkin for a long time.I watched a video recently of his 65 goals seasons and yeah... not the same player.

I know I'm in the minority to still have Lafleur > Ovechkin but I don't see it changing unless Ovechkin has even more playoff success, or he magically goes back to his peak form.