HOH Top 60 Centers of All Time

[Eye of Ra]

Malkin > Forsberg is a very easy analysis to make at this point. This is a fantastic regular season for Malkin (if he sees it through to end of year awards with either of a rocket, ross, hart lindsay - or more than 1 - even better).

After this season, Malkin's 3 best regular seasons > Forsberg's 3 best regular seasons.

Malkin career numbers ~ Forsberg's career numbers (both in the 700-800 games played, with a 1.19 vs 1.25 PPG, in diff era - Malkin more goals). Pretty close overall.

Malkin playoffs > Forsberg playoffs. Malkin would have 2-3 conn smythe worthy runs, including 1 of the most dominating smythes of all time. Forsberg has 0 actual smythes - and although he has some great runs, I still say advantage Malkin overall.

Forsberg is at 20. I'd say Malkin by end of this year (even without the extra cup + monster playoffs) would absolutely be in the top 20 above Forsberg.

but if we compare playing style then there is no doubt that forsberg should be above malkin...forsberg was a physical hitting machine with a mean streak while having world class skill....this is what did forsberg so special as a player .

 

[bobholly39]

but if we compare playing style then there is no doubt that forsberg should be above malkin...forsberg was a physical hitting machine with a mean streak while having world class skill....this is what did forsberg so special as a player .

I mean Forsberg was a very special player. I think even his biggest detractors concede that - nobody that i've seen has ever denied how great a player he was.

But you don't rank players all-time based on playstyle. You do so based on achievements and sustained level of play over a career. Malkin at this point has simply had the better career and thus warrants being ranked higher.

I suppose the one aspect i failed to compare between the 2 which is somewhat significant is international success. I know Forsberg is extremely strong there. Might be enough to still keep him above Malkin as of now overall, but it's close.

Malkin is only 31 though and has a ton of hockey left in him. I'd say right now these 2 players are neck and neck all-time - and Malkin should definitely pass Forsberg comfortably by the end of his career.

I mean just look at Forsberg vs Sakic/Yzerman. Most people will say Forsberg was "better" - or could have been, but everyone ranks Yzerman/Sakic above him. And Malkin imo is a higher caliber player than even Sakic/Yzerman. It makes sense he surpasses Forsberg all-time.

 

[bobholly39]

Since I brought it up....how does everyone feel about Malkin vs Yzerman/Sakic?

I feel as though Malkin is a higher caliber player than both in general. He was more often among the overall best player in the league than either Sakic/Yzerman (even with removing 99 & 66 as outliers). Of course in terms of overall career longevity/success, both # 19s are very tough to beat.

Is Malkin close to them? Has he already passed either/or? Is he headed that way with enough longevity, or does he still need significant achievements to do so?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Too many holes in Malkin's game. For an elite center he is very weak on faceoffs less than 45%, not reliable defensively,no demonstratable leadership attributes. Low TOI for an elite forward. This season under 19 minutes, career barely over 20 minutes.

Evgeni Malkin Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Compare to Sakic TOI/Faceoffs or Yzerman pre age 37 TOI career wise.

Joe Sakic Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Steve Yzerman Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Example of diminishing returns. Longer Malkin plays on a per game basis the less attractive the results.

 

[Sentinel]

I think Malkin has the potential of beating them both, but that's far, FAR down the line. Don't forget: he is never gonna catch up with them in the leadership department and it's unlikely that he will completely revamp his playing style to become a perennial Selke threat like they did.

 

[Sentinel]

Too many holes in Malkin's game. For an elite center he is very weak on faceoffs less than 45%, not reliable defensively,no demonstratable leadership attributes. Low TOI for an elite forward. This season under 19 minutes, career barely over 20 minutes.

Evgeni Malkin Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Compare to Sakic TOI/Faceoffs or Yzerman pre age 37 TOI career wise.

Joe Sakic Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Steve Yzerman Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Example of diminishing returns. Longer Malkin plays on a per game basis the less attractive the results.

Other than the aspects I also mentioned, all these things matter why? It should go to Malkin's credit that with 19 minutes TOI he is in the chase for Art Ross, Richard, and Hart.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Since I brought it up....how does everyone feel about Malkin vs Yzerman/Sakic?

I feel as though Malkin is a higher caliber player than both in general. He was more often among the overall best player in the league than either Sakic/Yzerman (even with removing 99 & 66 as outliers). Of course in terms of overall career longevity/success, both # 19s are very tough to beat.

Is Malkin close to them? Has he already passed either/or? Is he headed that way with enough longevity, or does he still need significant achievements to do so?

If you asked me who was a better player Malkin or Sakic id say Malkin. But Sakic does have 10 top 10 scoring finishes to genos 4. Though malkin may have three art Ross trophies after this season.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Other than the aspects I also mentioned, all these things matter why? It should go to Malkin's credit that with 19 minutes TOI he is in the chase for Art Ross, Richard, and Hart.

Against other forwards whose ice time is managed -Kucherov, Stamkos, Mackinnon are all under 20 min TOI as well the forwards with more complete games Crosby and McDavid, Giroux to an extent, playing more minutes, over 20 are deployed in the defensive zones with greater defensive responsibilities.

 

[bobholly39]

Too many holes in Malkin's game. For an elite center he is very weak on faceoffs less than 45%, not reliable defensively,no demonstratable leadership attributes. Low TOI for an elite forward. This season under 19 minutes, career barely over 20 minutes.

Evgeni Malkin Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Compare to Sakic TOI/Faceoffs or Yzerman pre age 37 TOI career wise.

Joe Sakic Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Steve Yzerman Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Example of diminishing returns. Longer Malkin plays on a per game basis the less attractive the results.

Yeah why should TOI matter though?

I get that you're very big on "complete" players - but you have to acknowledge and realize that a large number of star players in NHL history have been offense first (and sometimes - offense only) players.

Malkin is one of those. So he should be judged mostly by production.
Maybe it'll be relevant to see how much TOI a player like Patrice Bergeron has - since when he's on the ice and not scoring, he's likely still doing excellent things in the defensive end.
For offense though - I don't think TOI matters at all, just results. And since Malkin is an offense first forward, i don't think it's really relevant here.

Leadership is obviously a huge plus for Sakic/Yzerman - but that should only go so far in overall player assessment.

Faceoffs do count. But they're hardly the most important of skills, so he can end up ranking high even if that's one aspect he struggles in

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Too many holes in Malkin's game. For an elite center he is very weak on faceoffs less than 45%, not reliable defensively,no demonstratable leadership attributes. Low TOI for an elite forward. This season under 19 minutes, career barely over 20 minutes.

Evgeni Malkin Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Compare to Sakic TOI/Faceoffs or Yzerman pre age 37 TOI career wise.

Joe Sakic Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Steve Yzerman Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Example of diminishing returns. Longer Malkin plays on a per game basis the less attractive the results.

You can’t define leadership. You don’t know how the players act on the ice and off the ice.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Yeah why should TOI matter though?

I get that you're very big on "complete" players - but you have to acknowledge and realize that a large number of star players in NHL history have been offense first (and sometimes - offense only) players.

Malkin is one of those. So he should be judged mostly by production.
Maybe it'll be relevant to see how much TOI a player like Patrice Bergeron has - since when he's on the ice and not scoring, he's likely still doing excellent things in the defensive end.
For offense though - I don't think TOI matters at all, just results. And since Malkin is an offense first forward, i don't think it's really relevant here.

Leadership is obviously a huge plus for Sakic/Yzerman - but that should only go so far in overall player assessment.

Faceoffs do count. But they're hardly the most important of skills, so he can end up ranking high even if that's one aspect he struggles in

And they are accordingly ranked - Dionne, Bathgate, Geoffrion -just a short list.

Faceoffs drive possession.

Just results. Islanders will miss the playoffs again despite being strong offensively. Probably St. Louis,perhaps Dallas.

 

[Canadiens1958]

You can’t define leadership. You don’t know how the players act on the ice and off the ice.

You can. Just observe the perpetual weaknesses.Malkin has always been weak on faceoffs because he does not work on the skill.

The leaders work on their weaknesses and improve.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

You can. Just observe the perpetual weaknesses.Malkin has always been weak on faceoffs because he does not work on the skill.

The leaders work on their weaknesses and improve.

He does work on other things though. Faceoffs are not “that” important.

 

[bobholly39]

And they are accordingly ranked - Dionne, Bathgate, Geoffrion -just a short list.

Faceoffs drive possession.

Just results. Islanders will miss the playoffs again despite being strong offensively. Probably St. Louis,perhaps Dallas.

Dionne, Bathgate, Geoffrion....ok but what about Gretzky and Lemieux? They absolutely fall in the category of offense first/only guys. And they did ok ranking wise...

Unless you can pinpoint and show how Malkin is a defensive liability that *hurts* his team - and as such it should negatively affect his ranking somewhat - I don't think it should really impact him much if he brings enough offense (and he does).

He is bad at faceoffs. career 43.5% in regular season and 45.8% in playoffs. Yes faceoffs count and drive possession I agree. But it's not the most important factor in a player's career, and should be a pretty small component overall.

How were Gretzky and Lemieux at faceoffs? I'm asking as I honestly don't know. My guess is even if Gretzky was horrible at them it wouldn't hurt his ranking all that much.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Neither of Gretzky or Lemieux seems to have been particularly great. Not the biggest of samples and both were on their last legs.

Wayne Gretzky Stats and News
Mario Lemieux Stats and News

 

[K Fleur]

All face off percentage statistics tell very little of the story to a center’s defensive ability. Even less about a player’s “leadership skills”.

That reeks of typical hockey media tropes of “big centers that win face offs, are leaders”.

Hell right now Tyler Seguin is being praised as some two way force with the only evidence being presented is an improved face off percentage. He very well may have improved defensively, but face offs are not the only measurement of defensive play.



******

As for a demonstrable leadership example: I would hazard a guess that the majority(likely all) of Malkin’s many different line mates throughout the years have had the best stretches of their careers playing with him.

Or how about guaranteeing a series win down 3 games to 2 in the ‘16 ECF and then putting up 3 points in the two games to come through on the guarantee? This something people still wax poetics over Messier and his leadership by doing this in ‘94

 

[Epsilon]

Let's be honest: evaluations of "leadership" are heavily influenced by playing style (and at least somewhat by nationality) other than in cases where players/coaches/etc come out and explicitly make it clear that some player (who wouldn't otherwise be given conventional recognition for leadership by the mainstream hockey media) is in fact a leader of their team. Malkin has been a key player on 3 Stanley Cup championship teams, I'd be shocked if he wasn't credited by his teammates for demonstrating at least some level of leadership, if they were asked about it. Of course, the act of getting asked about a player's leadership capabilities often has some bias behind it: the media people who ask these questions don't think of Malkin as a leader, so they don't ask his teammates or coaches to comment on his leadership.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Dionne, Bathgate, Geoffrion....ok but what about Gretzky and Lemieux? They absolutely fall in the category of offense first/only guys. And they did ok ranking wise...

Unless you can pinpoint and show how Malkin is a defensive liability that *hurts* his team - and as such it should negatively affect his ranking somewhat - I don't think it should really impact him much if he brings enough offense (and he does).

He is bad at faceoffs. career 43.5% in regular season and 45.8% in playoffs. Yes faceoffs count and drive possession I agree. But it's not the most important factor in a player's career, and should be a pretty small component overall.

How were Gretzky and Lemieux at faceoffs? I'm asking as I honestly don't know. My guess is even if Gretzky was horrible at them it wouldn't hurt his ranking all that much.

Malkin is far from Gretzky and Lemieux especially when you look at all offensive skills beyond goal scoring.

 

[decma]

Is there any correlation between winning faceoffs and winning games?

Searching for a link between winning faceoffs and NHL games

Nothing has indicated there is any meaningful statistical correlation in large sample sizes between winnings face-offs, and winning hockey games.
...

the information we have also shows that winning more face-offs than your opponent by a wide margin over 60-to-65 minutes also does not portend winning said game.
...
Then there's the question individual performance. If face-offs create puck possession (true), and puck possession is good (also true) would a center with poor face-off numbers transitively have poor puck possession numbers?

Florida Panthers center Aleksander Barkov has taken 755 face-offs this year, and has won 46.9 of them, while sporting a Corsi-for percentage over 56. Five centers in the NHL have taken at least 500 face-offs and have better possession numbers than Barkov.
...
And the list goes on. Behind Eller in terms of puck possession and centers is Riley Nash of the Boston Bruins: A Corsi rating of 55.26 percent, with 209 face-offs won, and 212 lost. Down a few spots sits Ottawa Senators center Derick Brassard, another possession driver and more-often-than-not face-off loser.
Somehow, it appears these players are managing to maintain puck possession over large swaths while also losing face-offs.
There's also the other end of this spectrum, a center like Steve Ott, who has won 58 percent of his face-offs, and has a Corsi rating below 45 percent. Matt Duchene of the Colorado Avalanche has won over 62 percent of his face-offs this year, with a 48.57 Corsi-for percentage to go along with that. And the Anaheim Ducks' Antoine Vermette has also won over 62 percent of his face-offs, and also has had a negative puck possession impact.

Why faceoffs aren't as important as they're made out to be | The Hockey News

The point of winning faceoffs is to get control of the puck and if your team is getting out-possessed despite all those wins, it kind of points to how important those faceoff wins really are towards that goal. Stoll is a detriment to whatever team he plays for because he simply can’t do much else outside the circle. And yet, that’s the stat that was cited most frequently after his waiver claim, and it was likely the reason for the claim too. Stats guys talk about shot rates because it does a fair job at predicting future goals – better than anything else that’s currently available. Faceoffs don’t. All they tell you is who won the faceoff. They have their place, but they’re just not as important as they’re made out to be.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I just can't imagine a world where Malkin is recognized at the level of Sakic and Yzerman. He doesn't have that kind of profile in the league... it would take something totally unforeseen, like Crosby disappearing and Malkin becoming the captain of the Pens and leading them to another 2 or 3 Cups. Just scoring a lot of points isn't going to get it done, when comparing him to guys who were the central figures and captains of teams even better than the present day Pens.

 

[K Fleur]

So because Yzerman and Sakic had a “C” stitched into their jerseys their points matter more?

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Both have great playoff resumes. I'd personally choose malkin in that regard. But both great.

If the season finished today there scoring finishes in the reg season would be

Malkin 1 1 2 2
Sakic 2 2 3 4 5 5 6 6 8 10

Peak vs prime there

 

[Nick Hansen]

So because Yzerman and Sakic had a “C” stitched into their jerseys their points matter more?

Yes, and that's why Toews is a top 100 player while Malkin isn't.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

I just can't imagine a world where Malkin is recognized at the level of Sakic and Yzerman. He doesn't have that kind of profile in the league... it would take something totally unforeseen, like Crosby disappearing and Malkin becoming the captain of the Pens and leading them to another 2 or 3 Cups. Just scoring a lot of points isn't going to get it done, when comparing him to guys who were the central figures and captains of teams even better than the present day Pens.

This post resume exactly why Malkin is underrated in the hockey world.

Damn you quiet Malkin.

 

[tarheelhockey]

So because Yzerman and Sakic had a “C” stitched into their jerseys their points matter more?

Since you missed about 75% of that sentence, I'll say it again: they were the central figures and captains of teams even better than the present day Pens.

Edit: And saying that Yzerman's and Sakic's captaincies amounted to just having an extra piece of fabric on their jerseys... wrong forum for that kind of post. Main board is thattaway ---->