HOH Top 60 Centers of All-Time: Round 1 Preliminary Discussion Thread

[Sturminator]

Poke check and hook check are two different checks.

Hook check is from the body side of the puck carrier. Body position with slight contact, hooking the puck away from the stick and getting immediate control. The checker gets inside the puck carriers reach and uses his own body to then shield the puck.

Poke check is more finesse, poking the puck off the puck carrier's stick while avoiding the hip check that follows and then controlling the puck.
Poke check does not require getting inside the puck carriers reach just requires a longer reach.

The poke and hook check were most certainly different, and the terms were and are often mixed up by various hockey writers. In this case, Dink Carroll is being sloppy with his terminology. Pit Lepine was a hook checker.

It is the hook check which was the rare and devastating manuever during its heyday, and the hook check which seems to have faded out of the game towards the end of the 1930's. Variations of the poke check are still used today. The hook check seems to be a forgotten art.

 

[Sturminator]

"Pressure hockey" goes back to the Cecil Hart Canadiens, Pete Green/Eddie Gerard Senators well before Tommy Gorman with Chicago.

Tommy Gorman was a part owner and GM of the dynasty early twenties Senators.One of the NHL founders of the NHL.

Details about how and which pressure is applied by the forwards or by which forwards varied. Same basic approach.

You are referring to the "5 man ganging attacks" used by Hart's Canadiens (often with five forwards on the ice) when they needed a goal, I guess. This was a form of pressure hockey, but it was used rarely and was something more akin to pulling the goalie than the every-shift, systematic form of frenetic fore and backchecking that Gorman brought into the league.

Not sure what you mean about the Sens playing pressure hockey. They certainly put a lot of pressure on the puck carrier through the neutral zone, mostly through the auspices of Frank Nighbor's hook check, but I've never seen their style described as involving much in the way of active puck pursuit.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Hook Check

The poke and hook check were most certainly different, and the terms were and are often mixed up by various hockey writers. In this case, Dink Carroll is being sloppy with his terminology. Pit Lepine was a hook checker.

It is the hook check which was the rare and devastating manuever during its heyday, and the hook check which seems to have faded out of the game towards the end of the 1930's. Variations of the poke check are still used today. The hook check seems to be a forgotten art.

Hybrids of the hook check and the actually hook check is fairly common today. See it taught regularly in minor(youth) hockey and used in the NHL.

The Ovechkin video belows shows a hybrid made necessary by curved blades which make backhand control of the puck problematic. Ovechkin hooks the puck to a specific destination instead of poking and hoping.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41jlv6_yWCY

The main effectiveness of the hook check was negated by the "icing" rule introduced in 1939. Before the "icing" rule the smart forward would get into the defensemans blind spot in the arc as they chased the puck timing his hook check with the touch. "Icing" rule killed the play once the defensive touch was made so the forward had to beat the defenseman to the puck if he wanted to generate a scoring opportunity.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Word. He weaved his magic in Vancouver and San Jose too. As a fan of both of those franchises I quickly appreciated his style of game: a sublime talent.

From arguably the greatest defensive-minded coach of all time.

Great post by Steve 141 and your comments as well.

I'm a huge career guy as elite consistency over a long period of time is really what every player and team in any sports aspires to but Igor will be a hard guy to rank as peak and prime is also very important.

I'd be shocked if he was not every single list of the top 80 and even in most if not all top 60's.

Pre NHL guys are tough after the easy ones like Taylor for example.

Shifting leagues, limited information, professional and amateur players ect makes players from this era hard to compare, on any fair playing field with players in the NHL, especially later on...

This era needs to be represented but hopefully not out of wack to hurt players from other eras.

Also, not sure what other guys are doing, but I'm not giving any consideration of guys being 1st to do something, either their greatness stands out or it doesn't, players shouldn't have a chronological advantage simply by their year of birth.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Cecil Hart 1926-27 to 1931-32

You are referring to the "5 man ganging attacks" used by Hart's Canadiens (often with five forwards on the ice) when they needed a goal, I guess. This was a form of pressure hockey, but it was used rarely and was something more akin to pulling the goalie than the every-shift, systematic form of frenetic fore and backchecking that Gorman brought into the league.

Not sure what you mean about the Sens playing pressure hockey. They certainly put a lot of pressure on the puck carrier through the neutral zone, mostly through the auspices of Frank Nighbor's hook check, but I've never seen their style described as involving much in the way of active puck pursuit.

Pressure hockey is simply an expression about how the three forwards play defensively using the triangle they create. Triangle spacing managed by the center.

Previous post I described the limitations imposed on the hook check by the "icing" rule introduced in 1939.

Cecil Hart coached the Canadiens from 1926-27 thru 1931-32 then coming back from 1936-37 into 1938-39, replaced by Jules Dugal due to illness.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/coaches/hartce99c.html

The classic hook check was a very effective defensive weapon, easily convertible to goals for if the forward(s) was moving ahead in the defensive zone or towards or in proximity of the opponents net. On the backcheck it was less effective since the checkers momentum would take in an arc away from the opposing net allowing the other team to reset. The poke check - what Dink Carroll was referring to, became the better option since it allowed for a quick transition as evidenced in the Ovechkin video.

The Canadiens from that era had two excellent centers that excelled at both pressure checks - hook and poke. Morenz was the more physical of the two. This produced a lot of goals yet few assist. Examples 1929-30 the team had 141G/93A, 1930-31 ratio was 129G/100A.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Tommy Gorman and the 1933-34 Blackhawks

"Pressure hockey", as he calls it, is probably another word for the high-speed forechecking system which began spreading rapidly through the north american game after being introduced by Tommy Gorman's Blackhawks towards the end of the 1933-34 season. The mid-to-late 30's also marks the passing from the game of the last of its great hook-checkers, specifically Hooley Smith, Frank Boucher and Pit Lepine.

1933-34 Blackhawks played the Canadiens and Marrons in the first two rounds of the playoffs.

Round 1, Game 1 Gazette report:
http://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=xC0rAAAAIBAJ&sjid=EZkFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=6453,3135709

Round 1, Game 2 Gazette report. not possible to imbed page scroll to p14, top middle.
http://news.google.ca/newspapers?nid=Fr8DH2VBP9sC&dat=19340326&printsec=frontpage&hl=fr

Once we get past the hometown whining about injuries there is the Hawks edge in physical play in the defensive zone and goaltending, Gardiner over Chabot.

Round 2 Game 1 Gazette Report and coaches comments:

http://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=yS0rAAAAIBAJ&sjid=EZkFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=6518,3961407

http://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=yS0rAAAAIBAJ&sjid=EZkFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=6760,3958992

In the coaches comments, bottom of two links above Tommy Gorman is very clear about the backchecking being the key. Old traditional hockey.

Round 2 Game 1 Gazette report:

http://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=QsctAAAAIBAJ&sjid=6JgFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=6500,95742

Clearly states that the Maroons carried the game to the Blackhawks but does acknowledge the speed of the Chicago team. Nothing new from Gorman.

Will check finals later today or tomorrow.

Still during the first two rounds there is nothing to suggest that the 1933-34 Blackhawks and Tommy Gorman changed the way center played or impacted on the leading centers of the other team - Morenz,etc.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Soviet Centers Summary of Accomplishments

Vyacheslav Starshinov

• Domestic goal scoring finishes: 1st (1967), 1st (1968), 2nd (1969), 3rd (1962), 3rd (1964), 4th (1970), 5th (1963), 5th (1965), 5th (1966)
  Note: We know from the World Championships that Starshinov was a goal scorer, and not much of a playmaker. Unfortunately, we only have goal scoring stats from the USSR before 1971.
  
• Domestic Awards
  
  • Soviet Player of the Year voting: 2nd (1968), 3rd (1969), 3rd (1970)
    Note that the Soviet Player of the Year Award began in 1968.
  • All-Star Center (1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969)
  • All-Star Left Wing (1970)
• International Awards
  • World Championships Directorate Best Forward (1965)

Alexander Maltsev

• Domestic Scoring finishes: 1st (1971), 2nd (1974), 3rd (1976), 3rd (1977)
  Note that unlike Petrov, Maltsev did not play for the stacked Red Army Team domestically.
  
• Domestic Awards
  • Soviet Player of the Year voting: 1st (1972), 2nd (1970), 2nd (1981), 3rd (1971), 4th (1974), 4th (1976), 4th (1978), 4th (1980)
  • 1st Team All-Star Center (1970, 1971, 1972, 1974, 1978, 1980, 1981)
  • 2nd Team All-Star Right Wing (1973)
  • 3rd Team All-Star Center (1969)
• International Awards and Statistics
  • Tied for the scoring lead in the 1976 Olympics with 4 others (3 of them teammates)
  • All-Star at the 1976 Canada Cup (only Soviet All-Star)
  • World Championships Directorate Best Forward (1970, 1972, 1981)
  • World Championships All-Star Forward (1970, 1971, 1972, 1978, 1981)

Vladimir Petrov

• Domestic Scoring finishes: 1st (1970), 1st (1973), 1st (1975), 1st (1978), 1st (1979), 2nd (1977), 3rd (1972), 5th (1976)
  Note that 1970 is based off goals only.
  
• Domestic Awards
  • Soviet Player of the Year voting: 2nd (1973), 2nd (1977), 4th (1975), 5th (1981)
    Note that we only have the winner for 1979, rather than top 5 like most years.
  • 1st Team All-Star Center (1973, 1975, 1977, 1979)
  • 2nd Team All-Star Center (1969, 1971)
• International Awards
  • World Championship All Star Forward (1973, 1975, 1977, 1979)

Vladimir Shadrin

• Domestic Scoring finishes: 4th (1973)
  
• Domestic Awards
  • 2nd Team All Star Center (1973)
• International Stats and Awards
  • Tied for the scoring lead in the 1976 Olympics with 4 others (3 of them teammates)

Igor Larionov

• Domestic Scoring Finishes: 2nd (1986), 2nd (1988), 3rd (1987), 5th (1982), 5th (1985)
  
• Domestic Awards
  • Soviet Player of the Year voting: 1st (1988), 4th (1986), 4th (1987)
  • All-Star Center (1983, 1986, 1987, 1988)
• International Awards and Statistics
  • Tied for 2nd in scoring at the 1988 Olympics (behind linemate Krutov)
  • World Championship All-Star Forward (1983, 1985, 1986)

Slava Bykov

• Domestic Scoring Finishes: 4th (1988), 4th (1989)
  
• Domestic Awards
  • Soviet Player of the Year voting: 2nd (1989), 3rd (1990), 5th (1986)
  • All-Star Center (1990)
    Note that no All-Stars were selected in 1989
• International Awards and Statistics
  • All-Star Forward at the 1992 Olympics
  • World Championship All-Star Forward (1989)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

To add to the above post, here's a link to an analysis of voting shares for the Soviet Player of the Year Award: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=672152

Based on this metric, Alexander Maltsev looks very impressive.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Czechoslovakian Centers Summary of Accomplishments

From 1965-66 onwards, Czechoslovakia was competitive with the USSR in international tournaments featuring the best players from both countries. See this thread if you want more details. This culminated in Czechsolovakia winning the World Championships in 1972, 1976, 1977, and finishing 2nd to Canada in the 1976 Canada Cup. Around 1979, the Soviets reasserted domination over Europe. IMO, the best Czechoslovakian centers from this time period deserve to be recognized.

Vaclav Nedomansky

Nedomansky defected to North America after the 1973-74 season and all records of his existence were wiped from the official history books. I assume this data has all been reconstructed.

• Domestic goal finishes to 1969: 1st (1967), 2nd (1968), 3rd (1966), 3rd (1969)
  • Note, these are from SIHR, which is sometimes missing players
• Domestic scoring finishes 1970 onwards: 1st (1972), 1st (1974), 2nd (1971), 4th (1973), 5th (1970)
  • Note that these are points finishes are are from Czechoslovakian sources. They appear reliable.
• Domestic Awards
  • Golden Hockey Stick (MVP) voting: 3rd (1970), 3rd (1971), 4th (1972), 5th (1974), 6th (1969), 6th (1973),
  • All Star Center (1970, 1971, 1973, 1974)
  • All Star Right Wing (1969)
    Note that 1969 was the first year of both the Golden Hockey Stick and All Star Teams
• International Awards and Statistics
  • Tied for 2nd in scoring in the 1972 Olympics (behind Valeri Kharlamov)
  • World Championship Directorate Best Forward (1974)
  • World Championship All Star Forward (1969, 1970, 1974)

Ivan Hlinka

• Domestic scoring finishes: 1st (1975), 2nd (1972), 2nd (1978), 3rd (1974), 3rd (1976), 4th (1977), 7th (1973), 8th (1971), 9th (1981)
  
• Domestic Awards
  • Golden Hockey Stick (MVP) voting: 1st (1978), 2nd (1977), 4th (1974), 4th (1976), 7th (1979), 7th (1981), 8th (1971), 8th (1975), 9th (1972)
• International Stats and Awards
  • World Championships All-Star Forward (1978)

Milan Novy

• Domestic Scoring finishes: 1st (1976), 1st (1977), 1st (1978), 1st (1981), 1st (1982), 2nd (1974), 2nd (1975), 2nd (1980), 3rd (1973), 3rd (1979)
  • Note that Novy was playing for the Czechoslovak equivalent of the Red Army Team
• Domestic Awards and Statistics
  • Golden Stick (MVP) voting: 1st (1977), 1st (1981), 1st (1982), 2nd (1980), 3rd (1976), 4th (1978), 4th (1975), 8th (1973)
  • All-Star Center (1975, 1976, 1977)
    Note that All-Star Teams were discontinued after 1977
  • Tip Magazine Best Forward (1977, 1978, 1981, 1982)
    Note that the Tip Magazine Awards began in 1977
• International Awards
  • Led the 1980 Olympics in Scoring
  • All-Star Forward at the 1976 Canada Cup (the only Czechoslovak All-Star)
  • Team MVP at the 1976 Canada Cup
  • World Championship All-Star Forward (1976)

 

[VanIslander]

The reason the Soviets and Czechoslovakians are considered a tier higher than the Swedish, Finns and other European stars is their success INTERNATIONALLY against the best of their era.

That's why I discount their domestic league accomplishments a lot.

What matters is: What did they do internationally? and for how long?

Larionov, Novy, Hlinka and Petrov have been front and center of great international TEAM successes (something lacking in the lists of individual accomplishments) and that is significant.

 

[Hardyvan123]

The reason the Soviets and Czechoslovakians are considered a tier higher than the Swedish, Finns and other European stars is their success INTERNATIONALLY against the best of their era.

That's why I discount their domestic league accomplishments a lot.

What matters is: What did they do internationally? and for how long?

Larionov, Novy, Hlinka and Petrov have been front and center of great international TEAM successes (something lacking in the lists of individual accomplishments) and that is significant.

Sure it matters but one also might try to separate team success from individual success or greatness as well. Often too much is put on team success to over hype a player as well. Before the best on best tournaments there was a clear distinction between Soviet and Czech teams and the pack and not all of it can be awarded to certain top players but to team depth (and systems play and strategy) as well.


Some guys do better than others when challenged.

For example how guys like Igor do against same age type of players in the NHL as an example. Vlad as well, at least offensively.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The reason the Soviets and Czechoslovakians are considered a tier higher than the Swedish, Finns and other European stars is their success INTERNATIONALLY against the best of their era.

That's why I discount their domestic league accomplishments a lot.

What matters is: What did they do internationally? and for how long?

Larionov, Novy, Hlinka and Petrov have been front and center of great international TEAM successes (something lacking in the lists of individual accomplishments) and that is significant.

I like looking at the "Soviet Player of the Year" Award (which is sometimes translated as "Soviet MVP") because it pretty obviously takes into account both domestic and international performances in that year. I'm not sure as to the criteria of the Czechoslovak awards

 

[Sturminator]

1933-34 Blackhawks played the Canadiens and Marrons in the first two rounds of the playoffs.

Round 1, Game 1 Gazette report:
http://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=xC0rAAAAIBAJ&sjid=EZkFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=6453,3135709

Round 1, Game 2 Gazette report. not possible to imbed page scroll to p14, top middle.
http://news.google.ca/newspapers?nid=Fr8DH2VBP9sC&dat=19340326&printsec=frontpage&hl=fr

Once we get past the hometown whining about injuries there is the Hawks edge in physical play in the defensive zone and goaltending, Gardiner over Chabot.

Round 2 Game 1 Gazette Report and coaches comments:

http://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=yS0rAAAAIBAJ&sjid=EZkFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=6518,3961407

http://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=yS0rAAAAIBAJ&sjid=EZkFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=6760,3958992

In the coaches comments, bottom of two links above Tommy Gorman is very clear about the backchecking being the key. Old traditional hockey.

Round 2 Game 1 Gazette report:

http://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=QsctAAAAIBAJ&sjid=6JgFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=6500,95742

Clearly states that the Maroons carried the game to the Blackhawks but does acknowledge the speed of the Chicago team. Nothing new from Gorman.

Will check finals later today or tomorrow.

Still during the first two rounds there is nothing to suggest that the 1933-34 Blackhawks and Tommy Gorman changed the way center played or impacted on the leading centers of the other team - Morenz,etc.

See this post from the last ATD.

As you can see, there is actually quite a lot of evidence that Gorman introduced the first modern-ish forechecking system into the NHL in early 1934, and used it to guide a relatively weak Chicago team to the Stanley Cup, a feat which he repeated the next year with the Maroons. It is likely the rapid spread of Gorman's system which resulted in the new icing rules that you referenced (though they appear to have begun appearing in 1938, at least in the amateur leagues) - if you notice from the description of the 1934 finals vs Detroit, the Red Wings reacted to Chicago's forechecking by doing something which could be described as icing the puck:

The forechecking of the Black Hawks in Tuesday's game won the championship. Weiland, Lewis, Aurie and other Detroit forwards were completely baffled. Lewis became so disgusted on one occasion that he golfed the puck down the ice.

The game reports from 1934 do not contain much mention of Gorman's new tactic probably because sportswriters are typically not the most strategically savvy fellows, and because they didn't have a vocabulary at the time to describe what they were seeing. It wasn't until Gorman, himself, coined the phrase "forechecking" after the 1934 finals that we see it begin to be used by sportswriters.

 

[Sturminator]

The reason the Soviets and Czechoslovakians are considered a tier higher than the Swedish, Finns and other European stars is their success INTERNATIONALLY against the best of their era.

That's why I discount their domestic league accomplishments a lot.

What matters is: What did they do internationally? and for how long?

Larionov, Novy, Hlinka and Petrov have been front and center of great international TEAM successes (something lacking in the lists of individual accomplishments) and that is significant.

This is an overly narrow perspective, in my opinion. Using this criteria, we would conclude that Alexander Yakushev was a better player/had a better career than Helmut Balderis, which is clearly false.

Every player is different. We have to take their domestic and international accomplishments in the context of their era, team, competition, etc. No easy formula.

 

[Canadiens1958]

1930 Icing the Puck, the Poke Check

Icing the puck goes back to at least the last game of the 1930 series between the Boston Bruins and the Montreal Maroons. Described in the article by C.H. Peters as a tactic - supported by the description that it was repeated, as opposed to an act of frustration.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=yXAtAAAAIBAJ&sjid=M4wFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6631,4018108

So icing is not attributable to Tommy Gorman's Blackhawks in 1934.

The poke check. In his game report from Chicago, covering the first game of the 1930 Canadiens vs Blackhawks series, L.S.B. Shapiro describes very specifically how George Mantha, a poke check artist, was used in a penalty killing role.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=yXAtAAAAIBAJ&sjid=M4wFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6601,4026565

Twenty-five years later, Dink Carroll made the analogy between Pit Lepine and Johnny McCormack - a premier penalty killer of the early fifties with the Canadiens. So Dink Carroll was far from sloppy, in fact he was very precise and astute in his comment as to the appropriate skills for a specific situation or role.

The key element whether looking at the 1930 playoffs or the 1934 playoffs was the play of the respective centers Howie Morenz played a much more physical role than he is usually credited with, Pit Lepine usually outplayed the back-up center on the opposing team. The role of the back-up or second center on a thirties team definitely needs further study.

 

[reckoning]

WHA All-Star Team Centres

1972-73: 1st- Andre Lacroix , 2nd- Ron Ward
1973-74: 1st- Andre Lacroix , 2nd- Wayne Carleton
1974-75: 1st- Andre Lacroix , 2nd- Serge Bernier
1975-76: 1st- Ulf Nilsson , 2nd- Robbie Ftorek
1976-77: 1st- Robbie Ftorek , 2nd- Ulf Nilsson
1977-78: 1st- Ulf Nilsson , 2nd- Robbie Ftorek
1978-79: 1st- Robbie Ftorek , 2nd- Wayne Gretzky

Lacroix, Ftorek and Nilsson are the three who have the best case here.

Lacroix won the league's scoring title twice ('73 and '75)

Ftorek was the league MVP winner in the 76-77 season.

 

[reckoning]

When I start one of these lists, I try to begin by rating the best players by era, with an eye on approximately how many from each era I want on the final list.

Anyways, going through the 20-year era of the 50s and 60s in the NHL, there are seven players who peaked in that time who are easy no-brainer slam dunk picks: Beliveau, Mikita, Richard, Kennedy, Keon, Delvecchio and Ullman (I consider Schmidt and Abel to have peaked in the 40s). But after those seven centres, it looks to be a huge gap to the next group of centres from that era. Would that be a fair assessment, or do the other centres suffer from being overlooked because the position had such elite talent at the top?

For other NHL centres from the 50s and 60s, here's where I roughly rate them for the list:

Strongly considering: McKenney, Mosdell, Sloan

Considering: Backstrom, Goyette, Henry, Mackell

Long shots: Harris, Hay, Oliver, Prystai, Sullivan

Is there anyone there you feel is a definite top-60 candidate?
Anyone I mentioned who shouldn't be realistically considered?
Anyone I didn't mention who I should have?

 

[MXD]

When I start one of these lists, I try to begin by rating the best players by era, with an eye on approximately how many from each era I want on the final list.

Anyways, going through the 20-year era of the 50s and 60s in the NHL, there are seven players who peaked in that time who are easy no-brainer slam dunk picks: Beliveau, Mikita, Richard, Kennedy, Keon, Delvecchio and Ullman (I consider Schmidt and Abel to have peaked in the 40s). But after those seven centres, it looks to be a huge gap to the next group of centres from that era. Would that be a fair assessment, or do the other centres suffer from being overlooked because the position had such elite talent at the top?

For other NHL centres from the 50s and 60s, here's where I roughly rate them for the list:

Strongly considering: McKenney, Mosdell, Sloan

Considering: Backstrom, Goyette, Henry, Mackell

Long shots: Harris, Hay, Oliver, Prystai, Sullivan

Is there anyone there you feel is a definite top-60 candidate?
Anyone I mentioned who shouldn't be realistically considered?
Anyone I didn't mention who I should have?

For a Top-60? None of them are, IMO. I'd probably consider Backstrom but I just cannot see how I could fit him in.
For a Top-80? Of those 12 names, and without really thinking about it, I see Backstrom as a very serious candidate, and I guess I COULD give a look to McKenney.

 

[MXD]

Comparing an actual player to a former player....

What are your feelings regarding the following comparison :

Pavel Datsyuk vs. Dave Keon

I can't see them being quite far one from another, yet I cannot see Datsyuk cracking the Top-30 (.... mine, actually).

On the other hand, I can hardly picture Keon OUT of the Top-30.

Yet I think those two have to be quite close one to another. One could make the argument that those two are possible the most similar players we'll be voting on.

I'm I out to lunch?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Frank McGee

Frank McGee, center/rover Ottawa Silver Seven:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_McGee_(ice_hockey)

highly rated by contemporaries in D. A. L. MacDonald's "Turning Back Hockeys Pages" series from the mid thirties.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1479471&page=2

 

[Canadiens1958]

Excellent

Comparing an actual player to a former player....

What are your feelings regarding the following comparison :

Pavel Datsyuk vs. Dave Keon

I can't see them being quite far one from another, yet I cannot see Datsyuk cracking the Top-30 (.... mine, actually).

On the other hand, I can hardly picture Keon OUT of the Top-30.

Yet I think those two have to be quite close one to another. One could make the argument that those two are possible the most similar players we'll be voting on.

I'm I out to lunch?

Excellent comparable. Very similar including a great backhand shot. Dave Keon adapted instantly to the NHL and had longevity. The longevity question for Datsyuk remains to be seen.

 

[Hardyvan123]

WHA All-Star Team Centres

1972-73: 1st- Andre Lacroix , 2nd- Ron Ward
1973-74: 1st- Andre Lacroix , 2nd- Wayne Carleton
1974-75: 1st- Andre Lacroix , 2nd- Serge Bernier
1975-76: 1st- Ulf Nilsson , 2nd- Robbie Ftorek
1976-77: 1st- Robbie Ftorek , 2nd- Ulf Nilsson
1977-78: 1st- Ulf Nilsson , 2nd- Robbie Ftorek
1978-79: 1st- Robbie Ftorek , 2nd- Wayne Gretzky

Lacroix, Ftorek and Nilsson are the three who have the best case here.

Lacroix won the league's scoring title twice ('73 and '75)

Ftorek was the league MVP winner in the 76-77 season.

Ftorek has a great 2 way game, he was a true leader on pretty weak WHA teams, and transitioned well later into the NHL as well.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Comparing an actual player to a former player....

What are your feelings regarding the following comparison :

Pavel Datsyuk vs. Dave Keon

I can't see them being quite far one from another, yet I cannot see Datsyuk cracking the Top-30 (.... mine, actually).

On the other hand, I can hardly picture Keon OUT of the Top-30.

Yet I think those two have to be quite close one to another. One could make the argument that those two are possible the most similar players we'll be voting on.

I'm I out to lunch?

well one guy has a 4,4,10 in top 10 points while the other guy has a 9,10 in top 10 points.

Their is little or no difference in their defensive game either so how far apart would they be?

 

[Hardyvan123]

Excellent comparable. Very similar including a great backhand shot. Dave Keon adapted instantly to the NHL and had longevity. The longevity question for Datsyuk remains to be seen.

How so he has aged better in his 30's than Dave did, up to this point.

 

[MXD]

well one guy has a 4,4,10 in top 10 points while the other guy has a 9,10 in top 10 points.

Their is little or no difference in their defensive game either so how far apart would they be?

That's the funny thing : without looking anything and thinking too much about it, Keon is Top-30; Datsyuk isn't (pure perception here).

However, Datsyuk has better Top-10 finishes than Keon.

Sure, Keon has to get some benefit of longevity, and I'd even give him the benefit of playoff play at this point, as Datsyuk really became a playoff factor only post lockout.

Is that enough to fill in the gap in Top-10? How is Keon affected by the fact he had to play much more defensively than Datsyuk ever did?