HOH Top 60 Centers of All-Time: Round 1 Preliminary Discussion Thread

[Dennis Bonvie]

Generated benchmark scores can then be crunched over whole careers in order to compare player performance across eras, on the theory that the performance of the benchmark scorers (essentially the first non-outliers) has remained constant throughout post-consolidation (eg. 1926 to present) NHL history.

We generated some career-spanning statistics with this methodology which ended up being, I think, quite useful and interesting. For the numbers below, we used a mild weighting system which gives a bit more weight to sustained peak than longevity. The weighting methodology is explained in the thread. At any rate, here are some numbers:

Top-7 weighted VsX for Centers (1926-2012):

Rank | Player | Rank
1 | Wayne Gretzky | 155.1
2 | Phil Esposito | 123.4
3 | Mario Lemieux | 120.4
4 | Jean Beliveau | 108.9
5 | Stan Mikita | 108.1
6 | Bill Cowley* | 103.5
7 | Marcel Dionne | 103.2
8 | Howie Morenz | 102.8
9 | Joe Sakic | 97.9
10 | Frank Boucher | 95.4
11 | Elmer Lach* | 95.4
12 | Max Bentley* | 94.9
13 | Steve Yzerman | 93.5
14 | Bryan Trottier | 93.5
15 | Joe Thornton | 93.3
16 | Syl Apps Sr | 93
17 | Peter Forsberg | 90.9
18 | Nels Stewart | 90.5
19 | Adam Oates | 90.2
20 | Marty Barry | 89.9
21 | Mark Messier | 89.5
22 | Norm Ullman | 88.7
23 | Jean Ratelle | 88.5
24 | Peter Stastny | 88.3
25 | Sid Abel | 87.8
26 | Bobby Clarke | 87.6
27 | Ron Francis | 87.6
28 | Milt Schmidt | 87.5
29 | Henri Richard | 86.2
30 | Dale Hawerchuk | 85.9
31 | Denis Savard | 85.4
32 | Eric Lindros | 85.4
33 | Alex Delvecchio | 84.9
34 | Gilbert Perreault | 84.6
35 | Darryl Sittler | 84.1
36 | Clint Smith* | 82.6
37 | Sidney Crosby | 82.4
38 | Mats Sundin | 82.3
39 | Doug Gilmour | 82.3
40 | Pierre Turgeon | 82.3
41 | Mike Modano | 81.7
42 | Henrik Sedin | 81.7
43 | Jeremy Roenick | 81.5
44 | Ted Kennedy | 81.5
45 | Sergei Fedorov | 81
46 | Bernie Nicholls | 80.3
47 | Cooney Weiland | 79.4
48 | Pavel Datsyuk | 78.9
49 | Pat LaFontaine | 78.8
50 | Hooley Smith | 78.8
51 | Doug Weight | 78.6
52 | Brad Richards | 78.4
53 | Phil Watson | 78.1
54 | Alexei Yashin | 77.6
55 | Bernie Federko | 77.3
56 | Vincent Lecavalier | 77.2
57 | Joe Primeau | 76
58 | Don McKenney | 75.8
59 | Jacques Lemaire | 75.5
60 | Jason Spezza | 75.2
61 | Phil Goyette | 74.9
62 | Vincent Damphousse | 74.2
63 | Bill Thoms | 74.2
64 | Marc Savard | 73.9
65 | Eric Staal | 73.8
66 | Neil Colville | 73.2
67 | Evgeni Malkin | 73.2
68 | Henrik Zetterberg | 73.2
69 | Dave Keon | 73.2
70 | Rod Brind'Amour | 72.8
71 | Tod Sloan | 72.8
72 | Kent Nilsson | 71.7
73 | Dennis Maruk | 71.7
74 | Rick MacLeish | 71.6
75 | Buddy O'Connor* | 71.3
76 | Patrick Marleau | 71
77 | Ed Litzenberger | 70.8
78 | Joe Nieuwendyk | 70.5
79 | Pete Mahovlich | 70.3
80 | Billy Taylor* | 69.5

* wartime star

Note: this does not include data for the 2012-13 season.

Cool.

Can I use this as my top 80?

 

[VanIslander]

Cool.

Can I use this as my top 80?

Surely you jest.

Assessing the greatness of a player isn't reducible to a stat and the HOH Top 60 is not only about the NHL but all time, including pre-NHL and non-NHL all-time greats (Soviets, Czechoslovakians, WHA).

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

Surely you jest.

Assessing the greatness of a player isn't reducible to a stat and the HOH Top 60 is not only about the NHL but all time, including pre-NHL and non-NHL all-time greats (Soviets, Czechoslovakians, WHA).

Indeed. That list is so out of whack it pains me to look at it.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Indeed. That list is so out of whack it pains me to look at it.

It's a list of regular season offense compared to peers (measured on a per-season basis, not a game basis, sorry Mario) over a player's best 7 seasons. Nothing more.

 

[ted2019]

This thread has just about everything the HOH board has acquired on International and European scoring and awards voting: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1085207

Consolidating the sticky threads on this board in the "historical resources mega-sticky thread" has let us link more threads at the top of the board - that one is linked there now.

The most commonly used English language site on Soviet players is www.chidlovski.com. Arthur Chidlovski specializes in Soviet players, but he also has some shorter profiles on some Czechoslovak players.

The blog GreatestHockeyLegends.com has some good profiles of international players, many of them written by "international hockey expert" Patrick Houda.



I think we all differ on how we weigh peak vs prime vs career. Personally, I tend to value what I call "extended prime" the most, but other posters surely differ on this. Some look more heavily at peak, some at career value.

Thanks you very much.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

It's a list of regular season offense compared to peers (measured on a per-season basis, not a game basis, sorry Mario) over a player's best 7 seasons. Nothing more.

So, no?

 

[VanIslander]

So, you can participate in the HOH project without sending in an initial list.

It's better to not do one than to slop any half-baked list together.

Surely it could be possible for someone to become a voting member during the HOH project without putting together an initial list? If not, surely there's a standard in terms of quality of list submitted.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

So, no?

If someone actually copied and pasted that list, I could see it being rejected for lack of effort (copying and pasting from a list based off a single stat), but either way, it would definitely be rejected for lack of non-NHL players.

 

[reckoning]

But before I personally try to get into that, are there any NHL-era players who might be included on a top 80 list who aren't listed in posts 3-6 of this thread?

1) Ken Linseman: I'm actually surprised he never finished in the top 20 scorers (I looked it up, and sure enough his best was 21st), but his two top-5 finishes in the playoffs more than make up for it. Consistently produced around the point-a-game mark throughout his career, but had a worth far beyond statistics (good defensively, could throw opponents off their game with his agitating style, raised his game at playoff time). Made the Final with three different franchises in the 80s.

2) Dale Hunter: Most of the the things said about Linseman would apply to Hunter as well; similar players with many of the same strengths, though Hunter's offensive production wasn't quite as good (but still decent, over 1000 career points)

 

[VanIslander]

Hopefully a majority of these are on your radar for consideration of non-NHL accomplishments and as era greats:

Cyclone Taylor
Frank Nighbor
Joe Malone
Russell Bowie
Igor Larionov
Alexander Maltsev
Mickey MacKay
Vladimir Petrov
Dick Irvin
Tommy Dunderdale
Frank Fredrickson
Frank Foyston
Bernie Morris
Frank McGee
Jack Walker
Milan Novy
Rusty Crawford
Vyacheslav Starshinov
Jack Adams
Vladimir Shadrin
Blair Russell
Ivan Hlinka
Tommy Smith

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Hopefully a majority of these are on your radar for consideration of non-NHL accomplishments and as era greats:

Cyclone Taylor
Frank Nighbor
Joe Malone
Russell Bowie
Igor Larionov
Alexander Maltsev
Mickey MacKay
Vladimir Petrov
Dick Irvin
Tommy Dunderdale
Frank Fredrickson
Frank Foyston
Bernie Morris
Frank McGee
Jack Walker
Milan Novy
Rusty Crawford
Vyacheslav Starshinov
Jack Adams
Vladimir Shadrin
Blair Russell
Ivan Hlinka
Tommy Smith

Jack Walker and Rusty Crawford seem to have been more wingers than centers, as per the earlier discussion.

You're missing Duke Keats, who was usually the 1st Team AS center in the WCHL/WHL over Dick Irvin when they were both in their primes. He's the main omission I see here, though I could be missing someone myself. Edit: Does Newsy Lalonde count?

I think Sven Tumba might warrant consideration. He at least warrants discussion, based on his legendary status in Europe.

For posters who value the historical significance of "founding players," who contributed to the growth of the sport, you might consider Dan Bain from Canada who played a major role in spreading hockey west of Ontario, and Josef Malecek and Vladimir Zabrodsky, who put hockey on the map in Czechoslovakia before the Soviets even had a national team. Weak competition is obviously a major concern with this type of player though.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Sven Tumba

Sven Tumba is an intriguing possibility. Details about his five game tryout with the 1957-58 Quebec Aces are found in the following:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1447969&highlight=sven+tumba

The NHL possibilities were present. Question of projecting and assumptions about age. Charlie Burns was 22 the following fall when he made the Red Wings on the basis of an outstanding performance at the 1958 World Championships. Would any 26 year old player regardless of provenance receive a similar NHL opportunity? Bruins had given Larry Regan an opportunity at 26 so Sven Tumba was in the right organization.

 

[VanIslander]

Jack Walker and Rusty Crawford seem to have been more wingers than centers, as per the earlier discussion.

K. We'll get to them later then.

... Duke Keats, Newsy Lalonde ... Sven Tumba might warrant consideration. you might consider Dan Bain ... and Jozef Malecek and Vladimir Zabrodsky...

Indeed.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The 1927-28 "Unofficial" NHL All-Star Team as voted on by the NHL Managers (who would be called GMs today)

The NHL and NHA did not do All-Star Teams until the late 20s. Makes researching players like Joe Malone more difficult. In the late 1920s, the NHL had "unofficial" All-Star Teams voted on by the NHL GMs, but we only have been able to find a complete one from 1927-28. Here are the picks for center in the unofficial All-Star Team as voted on by the 10 NHL GMs for 1927-28:

1. Howie Morenz. 7 1st place votes at C, 3 1st place votes at LW = all 10 GMs gave him a 1st place vote somewhere.
2. Frank Boucher. 0 1st place votes at C, 3 2nd place votes. Yes, they gave him the 2nd Team AS over Nighbor because they hadn't figured out a points system yet.
3. Frank Nighbor. 3 1st place votes at C, 1 2nd place vote at C.

Howie Morenz's unanimous 1st Team vote is impressive, but really doesn't tell us anything a quick trip to hockey-reference.com couldn't tell us. Morenz's 1927-28 season is one of the most impressive in history - Morenz led the NHL in goals, assists, and points. He had 51 points, when second place (Aurel Joliat) had 39. Joliat was Morenz's linemate. The nearest non-linemates were Frank Boucher and George Hay tied with 35 points.

What this does help illustrate is just how revered Frank Nighbor was for his defensive play. Nighbor was 35 years old and way past his offensive prime (when he was regularly a top scorer in addition to his defensive game). He only scored 14 points, tied for 4th on his own team. Yet by a modern points system for counting the All-Star votes, he would have finished as a 2nd Team All Star over 26 year old Frank Boucher, who had 35 points. It appears that the 3 of 10 NHL GMs who voted Morenz as 1st Team LW instead of 1st Team C did so to put Nighbor at 1st Team C.

SOURCE via overpass (warning: large pdf file)

 

[steve141]

Igor Larionov

I won’t have time to be a voter, but I thought I’d make a case for one of the players that will be hardest to rank: Igor “The Professor” Larionov.

Raised in the Soviet system where centers were expected to focus equally on defense and offense, Larionov developed into one of the best defensive forwards ever. Everyone who played with him seem to mention his intelligence, and he used his hockey sense to play the Soviet style left-wing lock to perfection.

Larionov was not as flashy as his famous team-mates on the KLM line, but certainly the hub that made it all work. If Gretzky’s office was behind the goal, Larionov made his magic happen in the area between his own blue line and the red line. Larionov’s excellent vision of the ice and ability to stay calm made him the ultimate puck-possession center. Larionov was an exceptional passer, but it was his ability to just turn around, circle and wait until there was an open player that raised eye-brows. The fluid style of attack employed by the Soviets meant that the open player might just as well be Fetisov or Kasatonov as one of the wingers. When one of the defensemen pinched, Larionov would simply take his place like he’d never done anything else.

Larionov has one of the biggest hockey trophy cases ever:

3 Stanley Cups
2 Olympic Golds
4 World Championship Golds
2 JWC Golds
1 Canada Cup Gold
8 Soviet League Championships

3 time World Champion All-Star Team
Soviet Player of the Year (1988)
4 time Soviet League All-Star Team

Out of all the Soviet era players Larionov was the one who made the transition to the NHL best. After a few years on the west coast he found his home on the Red Wings, where he was employed as a 2nd/3rd line center.

"He was a special kind of player," Bowman said. "The part about him, really, is how good he was defensively. I hardly ever had a player as good as him in the last five minutes of a game when you were protecting a lead. His positional play was so good. It's like having a playing coach on the ice. I thought because he was battle-scarred from all the big tournaments he played in. He was calm. He just made all the right moves all the time."

"He sort of had Wayne Gretzky hockey sense," Red Wings GM Ken Holland said.

Since Larionov’s career was split in half between the Soviet Union and the NHL he cannot be ranked easily by most regular metrics.

One way of putting his NHL career in context is to compare his performance in the NHL to other 29+ aged players. The ability to perform well after 30 is highly correlated to the ability to perform well before 30.

Here’s a list of the highest points totals for centers from the age of 29 in the NHL. Larionov comes out excellently in this metric, despite playing during the dead puck era:

Highest point totals for centers from the age of 29:

Rk | Player | PTS
1|Mark Messier*|1046
2|Wayne Gretzky*|1020
3|Adam Oates*|1004
4|Jean Ratelle*|972
5|Phil Esposito*|955
6|Ron Francis*|912
7|Marcel Dionne*|843
8|Alex Delvecchio*|794
9|Joe Sakic*|758
10|Norm Ullman*|751
11|Jean Beliveau*|709
12|Stan Mikita*|699
13|Doug Gilmour*|678
14|Peter Stastny*|648
15| Igor Larionov* |644

The caliber of the players on this list shows just how special he was, considering he was primarily a defensive center. I believe Larionov is seriously underrated on this board.

 

[VanIslander]

If Gretzky’s office was behind the goal, Larionov made his magic happen in the area between his own blue line and the red line. Larionov’s excellent vision of the ice and ability to stay calm made him the ultimate puck-possession center.

Word. He weaved his magic in Vancouver and San Jose too. As a fan of both of those franchises I quickly appreciated his style of game: a sublime talent.

"He was a special kind of player," Bowman said. "The part about him, really, is how good he was defensively. I hardly ever had a player as good as him in the last five minutes of a game when you were protecting a lead. His positional play was so good. It's like having a playing coach on the ice. I thought because he was battle-scarred from all the big tournaments he played in. He was calm. He just made all the right moves all the time."

From arguably the greatest defensive-minded coach of all time.

 

[Sturminator]

Indeed. That list is so out of whack it pains me to look at it.

While I could have been more explicit about what these numbers represent, you could have made some effort to grasp their meaning before commenting. These numbers are, as TDMM said, a useful shorthand for comparing career regular season scoring (on a per-season rather than per-game level) across eras. Far more useful than looking at raw top-X finishes in league scoring tables, which has been the standard method to this point.

This information is meant to serve as a useful beginning in the assessment of relative player performance, as regular season scoring is the largest and most important statistical sample we have for scoringline forwards. It does a good job of telling us how similar guys like Hooley Smith and Doug Gilmour were as regular season scorers, but there's obviously a lot more to the story than that. I assure you, my own top-80 list for this project is quite different than the above.

 

[Sturminator]

Hopefully a majority of these are on your radar for consideration of non-NHL accomplishments and as era greats:

Cyclone Taylor
Frank Nighbor
Joe Malone
Russell Bowie
Igor Larionov
Alexander Maltsev
Mickey MacKay
Vladimir Petrov
Dick Irvin
Tommy Dunderdale
Frank Fredrickson
Frank Foyston
Bernie Morris
Frank McGee
Jack Walker
Milan Novy
Rusty Crawford
Vyacheslav Starshinov
Jack Adams
Vladimir Shadrin
Blair Russell
Ivan Hlinka
Tommy Smith

In addition to the guys TDMM mentioned, Vaclav Nedomansky definitely belongs. At least one NHLer who didn't make the list, Pit Lepine, also deserves serious consideration in this project.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

In addition to the guys TDMM mentioned, Vaclav Nedomansky definitely belongs. At least one NHLer who didn't make the list, Pit Lepine, also deserves serious consideration in this project.

Ugh, still can't get my mind wrapped around the fact that he was a center more than a right wing. Yeah, he definitely belongs.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Pit Lepine

In addition to the guys TDMM mentioned, Vaclav Nedomansky definitely belongs. At least one NHLer who didn't make the list, Pit Lepine, also deserves serious consideration in this project.

Broken leg in the 1932 playoffs vs the Rangers impacted Lepine's career.

One of the difficulties evaluating Pit Lepine's career is that he played during the pre forward pass, pre icing era. A strong poke checking center like Pit Lepine and Frank Nighbor were premium players under these rules since puck carrying centers dominated and an elite poke checker would generate a quick counter attack. Also easily transferable to the faceoff.

A Gazette article and Dink Carroll column - top segment following Pit Lepine's death August 2, 1955 provide additional perspectives about his career:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=eTArAAAAIBAJ&sjid=jJgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=5153,495211

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ejArAAAAIBAJ&sjid=jJgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6738,674499

 

[Sturminator]

Just for reference, here are a couple of old post on the topic of hook-checkers, NHL rules changes, and Pit Lepine, specifically:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=31429866&postcount=74

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=31430860&postcount=75

Pertinent information from these posts:

- The NHL changed the rules to allow forward passing and kicking of the puck in the neutral zone starting in the 1918-19 season.

- The NHL changed the rules to allow forward passing and puck kicking in the offensive zone starting in the 1929-30 season.

Most of Lepine's prime (as well as Smith's and Boucher's) occured after the second of the above rules changes. As late as 1932, members of the press were still calling for the hook check to be banned from the sport because of its imbalancing effectiveness. Forward passing does not appear to have affected the great hook checkers much, if at all.

 

[Sturminator]

A Gazette article and Dink Carroll column - top segment following Pit Lepine's death August 2, 1955 provide additional perspectives about his career:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=eTArAAAAIBAJ&sjid=jJgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=5153,495211

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ejArAAAAIBAJ&sjid=jJgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6738,674499

From the second article, I believe Mr Carroll puts his finger quite ably on the changes to the game which actually killed the hook check (and gave rise to the puck moving defenseman):

But the poke check was very effective in Pit's era because there were a lot of fellows in the league who could carry the puck. When you see one today you blink. In this era of pressure hockey, the accent is on passing. The coaches and players figure it's a lot easier to get the puck from one end of the rink to the other by passing it rather than by carrying it.

"Pressure hockey", as he calls it, is probably another word for the high-speed forechecking system which began spreading rapidly through the north american game after being introduced by Tommy Gorman's Blackhawks towards the end of the 1933-34 season. The mid-to-late 30's also marks the passing from the game of the last of its great hook-checkers, specifically Hooley Smith, Frank Boucher and Pit Lepine.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Poke Check / Hook Check

Poke check and hook check are two different checks.

Hook check is from the body side of the puck carrier. Body position with slight contact, hooking the puck away from the stick and getting immediate control. The checker gets inside the puck carriers reach and uses his own body to then shield the puck.

Poke check is more finesse, poking the puck off the puck carrier's stick while avoiding the hip check that follows and then controlling the puck.
Poke check does not require getting inside the puck carriers reach just requires a longer reach.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Pressure Hockey

"Pressure hockey", as he calls it, is probably another word for the high-speed forechecking system which began spreading rapidly through the north american game after being introduced by Tommy Gorman's Blackhawks towards the end of the 1933-34 season. The mid-to-late 30's also marks the passing from the game of the last of its great hook-checkers, specifically Hooley Smith, Frank Boucher and Pit Lepine.

"Pressure hockey" goes back to the Cecil Hart Canadiens, Pete Green/Eddie Gerard Senators well before Tommy Gorman with Chicago.

Tommy Gorman was a part owner and GM of the dynasty early twenties Senators.One of the NHL founders of the NHL.

Details about how and which pressure is applied by the forwards or by which forwards varied. Same basic approach.

 

[tony d]

Looking forward to getting this started. I'm going to be interested to see where people rank Phil Esposito. The guy was great offensively, I wonder if that offensive game would be enough to beat out more well rounded guys like Bobby Clarke and Bryan Trottier.