HOH Top 60 Centers List & Voting Record - Hardyvan123

TheDevilMadeMe · Apr 1, 2014

Round 1 List

Players from our final top 60 not ranked in this top 60
Ted Kennedy at 61
Hooley Smith at 64
Frank Fredrickson at 67
Russell Bowie at 68
Duke Keats at 69
Vladimir Petrov at 75
Alexander Maltsev at 77
Neil Colville (not ranked)

Players unique to this list
Eric Staal (on 1 other list)
Doug Weight (on 1 other list)
Saku Koivu
Ulf Nilsson

Players ranked highest overall on this list
Jean Beliveau at 2 - next highest at 3
Stan Mikita at 3 - next highest at 4
Steve Yzerman at 5 - next highest at 10
Joe Sakic at 7 - next highest at 8
Marcel Dionne at 9 - next highest at 14
Sergei Fedorov at 10 - next highest at 19
Peter Forsberg at 13 - next highest at 17
Doug Gilmour at 21 - next highest at 22
Igor Larionov at 27 - next highest at 29
Mats Sundin at 43 - next highest at 44
Jeremy Roenick at 51 - next highest at 54
Kent Nilsson at 63 (tied with 1 other)
Bernie Nicholls at 65 - next highest at 68
Brad Richards at 71 - next highest at 72

Players ranked 2nd highest on this list
Sidney Crosby at 17
Ron Francis at 23 (tied with 1 other)
Eric Lindros at 28
Mike Modano at 38
Jacques Lemaire at 42
Henrik Zetterberg at 45
Bernie Federko at 55
Pierre Turgeon at 58

Players ranked lowest overall on this list
Mario Lemieux at 4 - next lowest at 2
Howie Morenz at 12 - next lowest at 8
Bobby Clarke at 14 - next lowest at 11
Nels Stewart at 50 - next lowest at 46
Ted Kennedy at 61 - next lowest at 42
Russell Bowie at 68 - next lowest at 57
Vladimir Petrov at 75 - next lowest at 72
Alexander Maltsev at 77 - next lowest at 63
Tommy Dunderdale - not ranked

Players ranked 2nd lowest on this list
Phil Esposito at 15 (tied with 1 other)
Frank Boucher at 26
Hooley Smith at 64
Frank Fredrickson at 67

Round 2 voting

Highest vote

Round 1: Mikita 3rd
Round 5: Fedorov 4th
Round 6: Fedorov 2nd
Round 9: Lindros 1st
Round 12: Sundin 3rd
Round 15: Roenick 1st

Lowest vote

Round 1: Lemieux 5th
Round 5: Schmidt 7th
Round 7: Bentley 7th
Round 12: Barry NR

Killion · Apr 1, 2014

Wow! Thats certainly an interesting list Hv. Very interesting indeed. You must be one of the very few to have ranked Lemieux below Beliveau & Mikita, and scanning through the depths, again some surprising rankings & inclusions. Even got Datsyuk & Stamkos in there. Id say thats well done in terms of providing a window as to how you perceive & rate the games best Centers. Not about to criticize, dont agree with some of the placements but hey, your list, your allowed.

unknown33 · Apr 1, 2014

This list is so .... lets say 'interesting' that I wouldn't know were to start, so let's leave it at that.
I like some changes in Round 2, Morenz ahead of Lemieux is surprising.

DisgruntledGoat* · Apr 1, 2014

Yeah, that's a pretty bad list.

Fedorov top ten??? Laughable and unjustifiable even when you emphasize modern players as much as this poster does.

MXD · Apr 1, 2014

There are differences I like to see and can live with even though I disagree, differences that are totally unsupportable (Fedorov 10th and Round 2, Yzerman 5th). At least I have no reason to doubt Hardy's integrity, which was somewhat a concern of mine during the process.

One quick observations however...

Why did you bother with those comments on Smith and Xolville during round 2? Looking at where you ranked them, and considering what you alleged in the respective rounds, Colville should have been ranked dead last in vote 16. Not 4th. Because what you described was possibly the 175th best center of all time.

TheDevilMadeMe · Apr 1, 2014

Hardy was using the fact that he was a "career guy" as an explanation for his low vote for Mario Lemieux.

But then I see stuff like this

Players ranked highest overall on this list
Sergei Fedorov at 10 - next highest at 19
Peter Forsberg at 13 - next highest at 17
Doug Gilmour at 21 - next highest at 22
Kent Nilsson at 63 (tied with 1 other)

Players ranked 2nd highest on this list
Sidney Crosby at 17
Eric Lindros at 28
Henrik Zetterberg at 45

Highest vote
Round 5: Fedorov 4th
Round 6: Fedorov 2nd
Round 9: Lindros 1st

And it really seems like being a "career guy" only applies to Mario Lemieux

Fred Taylor · Apr 1, 2014

TheDevilMadeMe said:
Round 1 List

Rank | name
1 | Wayne Gretzky
2 | Jean Beliveau
3 | Stan Mikita
4 | Mario Lemieux
5 | Steve Yzerman
6 | Mark Messier
7 | Joe Sakic
8 | Bryan Trottier
9 | Marcel Dionne
10 | Sergei Fedorov
11 | Cyclone Taylor
12 | Howie Morenz
13 | Peter Forsberg
14 | Bobby Clarke
15 | Phil Esposito
16 | Frank Nighbor
17 | Sidney Crosby
18 | Milt Schmidt
19 | Henri Richard
20 | Newsy Lalonde
21 | Doug Gilmour
22 | Syl Apps, Sr
23 | Ron Francis
24 | Peter Statsny
25 | Alex Delvecchio
26 | Frank Boucher
27 | Igor Larionov
28 | Eric Lindros
29 | Joe Malone
30 | Dale Hawerchuk
31 | Norm Ullman
32 | Dave Keon
33 | Pavel Datsyuk
34 | Max Bentley
35 | Adam Oates
36 | Sid Abel
37 | Evgeni Malkin
38 | Mike Modano
39 | Elmer Lach
40 | Denis Savard
41 | Joe Thornton
42 | Jacques Lemaire
43 | Mats Sundin
44 | Bill Cowley
45 | Henrik Zetterberg
46 | Marty Barry
47 | Jean Ratelle
48 | Gilbert Perreault
49 | Joe Primeau
50 | Nels Stewart
51 | Jeremy Roenick
52 | Mickey MacKay
53 | Darryl Sittler
54 | Pat Lafontaine
55 | Bernie Federko
56 | Vaclav Nedmoansky
57 | Steven Stamkos
58 | Pierre Turgeon
59 | Joe Niewendyk
60 | Guy Carbonneau
61 | Ted Kennedy
62 | Rod Brind'Amour
63 | Kent Nilsson
64 | Hooley Smith
65 | Bernie Nicholls
66 | Henrik Sedin
67 | Frank Fredrickson
68 | Russel Bowie
69 | Duke Keats
70 | Bernie Morris
71 | Brad Richards
72 | Eric Staal
73 | Rick MacLeish
74 | Doug Weight
75 | Vladmir Petrov
76 | Bobby Smith
77 | Alexander Maltsev
78 | Saku Koivu
79 | Ulf Nilsson
80 | Butch Goring

Players from our final top 60 not ranked in this top 60
Ted Kennedy at 61
Hooley Smith at 64
Frank Fredrickson at 67
Russell Bowie at 68
Duke Keats at 69
Vladimir Petrov at 75
Alexander Maltsev at 77
Neil Colville (not ranked)

Players unique to this list
Eric Staal (on 1 other list)
Doug Weight (on 1 other list)
Saku Koivu
Ulf Nilsson

Players ranked highest overall on this list
Jean Beliveau at 2 - next highest at 3
Stan Mikita at 3 - next highest at 4
Steve Yzerman at 5 - next highest at 10
Joe Sakic at 7 - next highest at 8
Marcel Dionne at 9 - next highest at 14
Sergei Fedorov at 10 - next highest at 19
Peter Forsberg at 13 - next highest at 17
Doug Gilmour at 21 - next highest at 22
Igor Larionov at 27 - next highest at 29
Mats Sundin at 43 - next highest at 44
Jeremy Roenick at 51 - next highest at 54
Kent Nilsson at 63 (tied with 1 other)
Bernie Nicholls at 65 - next highest at 68
Brad Richards at 71 - next highest at 72

Players ranked 2nd highest on this list
Sidney Crosby at 17
Ron Francis at 23 (tied with 1 other)
Eric Lindros at 28
Mike Modano at 38
Jacques Lemaire at 42
Henrik Zetterberg at 45
Bernie Federko at 55
Pierre Turgeon at 58

Players ranked lowest overall on this list
Mario Lemieux at 4 - next lowest at 2
Howie Morenz at 12 - next lowest at 8
Bobby Clarke at 14 - next lowest at 11
Nels Stewart at 50 - next lowest at 46
Ted Kennedy at 61 - next lowest at 42
Russell Bowie at 68 - next lowest at 57
Vladimir Petrov at 75 - next lowest at 72
Alexander Maltsev at 77 - next lowest at 63
Tommy Dunderdale - not ranked

Players ranked 2nd lowest on this list
Phil Esposito at 15 (tied with 1 other)
Frank Boucher at 26
Hooley Smith at 64
Frank Fredrickson at 67

Round 2 voting

Round | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | none
1 | Gretzky | Beliveau | Mikita | Morenz | Lemieux | Messier | Trottier | Clarke | Esposito
2 | Mikita | Messier | Sakic | Trottier | Taylor | Yzerman | Clarke | Nighbor | Esposito, Lalonde
3 | Sakic | Yzerman | Trottier | Taylor | Dionne | Esposito | Lalonde | Apps | Schmidt
4 | Yzerman | Forsberg | Dionne | Richard | Apps | Boucher | Lalonde | Malone | Schmidt
5 | Forsberg | Crosby | Dionne | Fedorov | Richard | Malone | Schmidt | Kennedy | Bentley
6 | Crosby | Fedorov | Kennedy | Stastny | Lach | Ullman | Malone | Stewart | Abel, Bentley, Cowley, Keon
7 | Fedorov | Stastny | Ullman | Francis | Stewart | Lach | Bentley | Abel | Cowley, Delvecchio, Keon
8 | Fedorov | Stewart | Lindros | Stastny | Francis | Gilmour | Keon | Abel | Delvecchio, Oates, Perreault
9 | Lindros | Stastny | Francis | Gilmour | Thornton | Malkin | Oates | Hawerchuk | Delvecchio, Maltsev, Perreault
10 | Lindros | Datsyuk | Malkin | Oates | Larionov | Hawerchuk | Perreault | Delvecchio | Bowie, Ratelle, Smith
11 | Datsyuk | Malkin | Modano | Hawerchuk | Larionov | Perreault | Savard | Ratelle | Bowie, MacKay, Petrov, Smith
12 | Modano | Hawerchuk | Sundin | Larionov | Savard | Petrov | Ratelle | MacKay | Barry, Fredrickson, Primeau, Sittler
13 | Zetterberg | Sundin | Larionov | Savard | Lafontaine | Sittler | Petrov | MacKay | Fredrickson, Keats, Lemaire, Nedomansky, Primeau
14 | Sundin | Zetterberg | Lafontaine | Lemaire | Sittler | Sedin | Fredrickson | Nedomansky | Dunderdale, Foyston, Keats, McGee, Morris, Primeau
15 | Roenick | Lafontaine | Lemaire | Stamkos | Sedin | Turgeon | Brind'Amour | Keats | Carbonneau, Colville, Dunderdale, Federko, Foyston, McGee, Morris, Nieuwendyk, Novy, Primeau, Starshinov
16 | Roenick | Sedin | Lafontaine | Colville | Foyston | Primeau | | |

Highest vote

Round 1: Mikita 3rd
Round 5: Fedorov 4th
Round 6: Fedorov 2nd
Round 9: Lindros 1st
Round 12: Sundin 3rd
Round 15: Roenick 1st

Lowest vote

Round 1: Lemieux 5th
Round 5: Schmidt 7th
Round 7: Bentley 7th
Round 12: Barry NR

Surprised to see Mikita above Lemieux, very odd. I can almost see a case for Beliveau, but not Mikita.

Also, Fred Taylor at 11th? Congratulations Hardy, I didn't even know you knew I existed.

seventieslord · Apr 1, 2014

TheDevilMadeMe said:
Hardy was using the fact that he was a "career guy" as an explanation for his low vote for Mario Lemieux.

But then I see stuff like this

Players ranked highest overall on this list
Sergei Fedorov at 10 - next highest at 19
Peter Forsberg at 13 - next highest at 17
Doug Gilmour at 21 - next highest at 22
Kent Nilsson at 63 (tied with 1 other)

Players ranked 2nd highest on this list
Sidney Crosby at 17
Eric Lindros at 28
Henrik Zetterberg at 45

Highest vote
Round 5: Fedorov 4th
Round 6: Fedorov 2nd
Round 9: Lindros 1st

And it really seems like being a "career guy" only applies to Mario Lemieux

good point.

Hardyvan123 · Apr 1, 2014

TheDevilMadeMe said:
Hardy was using the fact that he was a "career guy" as an explanation for his low vote for Mario Lemieux.

But then I see stuff like this

Players ranked highest overall on this list
Sergei Fedorov at 10 - next highest at 19
Peter Forsberg at 13 - next highest at 17
Doug Gilmour at 21 - next highest at 22
Kent Nilsson at 63 (tied with 1 other)

Players ranked 2nd highest on this list
Sidney Crosby at 17
Eric Lindros at 28
Henrik Zetterberg at 45

Highest vote
Round 5: Fedorov 4th
Round 6: Fedorov 2nd
Round 9: Lindros 1st

And it really seems like being a "career guy" only applies to Mario Lemieux

Well for the initial vote sure everyone would probably tweak their list a bit and frankly I didn't have enough time to really pinpoint all of my guys, was more interested in guys getting on the list than every order or rank detail.

As for Feds, IMO he is the best Russian center, and perhaps player and from a country that has basically been as good as or pretty close to Canada for eliteness since the mid 70's.

Feds never had a bad playoff and had many very good to excellent to elite ones, at both ends of the rink.

also while perhaps 10 might be a bit high admittedly, I really took the notion or idea of "being the best player in the world, or in the mix, as Feds was for at least 2 of his NHL seasons as a separation point from guys that were merely good to very good for a long time, although career consistency is very important in the equation as well.

bigbuffalo313 · Apr 1, 2014

Hardy doesn't put to much emphasis on modern guys, he had Lemieux at 4 :sarcasm:

But seriously this was the list I was waiting for the most. I am not disappointed.

Bernie Nicholls at 65 needs a lot of explaining

Hardyvan123 · Apr 1, 2014

MXD said:
There are differences I like to see and can live with even though I disagree, differences that are totally unsupportable (Fedorov 10th and Round 2, Yzerman 5th). At least I have no reason to doubt Hardy's integrity, which was somewhat a concern of mine during the process.

One quick observations however...

Why did you bother with those comments on Smith and Xolville during round 2? Looking at where you ranked them, and considering what you alleged in the respective rounds, Colville should have been ranked dead last in vote 16. Not 4th. Because what you described was possibly the 175th best center of all time.

For each round of voting, I looked at all of the players for each round and how they stacked up against each other and while I didn't have Colville in my top 80, he would be in my top 100 but that being said I still think, and most of us here did as well in round 1, that Neil isn't really a legitimate top 60 center.

Heck he ended up not being a top 60 center in round 2 either, until he slipped in on a procedural back door.

No matter by the time we do the next top centers project guys like Bergeron, Kopitar, Towes ect will all easily supplant him IMO.

unknown33 · Apr 1, 2014

Okay I said earlier I don't, but I REALLY have to point out one more thing:

27 Igor Larionov
75 Vladmir Petrov
77 Alexander Maltsev

And yeah I'm already aware of your reasoning.

MXD · Apr 1, 2014

Hardyvan123 said:
For each round of voting, I looked at all of the players for each round and how they stacked up against each other and while I didn't have Colville in my top 80, he would be in my top 100 but that being said I still think, and most of us here did as well in round 1, that Neil isn't really a legitimate top 60 center.

Heck he ended up not being a top 60 center in round 2 either, until he slipped in on a procedural back door.

No matter by the time we do the next top centers project guys like Bergeron, Kopitar, Towes ect will all easily supplant him IMO.

If anything, Colville came from quite far because he wasn't that well known. Case in point - a year ago, I saw him as below Toews. And now I'd consider him exactly the 59th best center of all time.

Could indeed be passed as players like Bergeron, Toews add to their resume (wouldnt include Kopitar in this -- headed dangerously in a Kirk Muller-like career, which would make him a decent 75th to 100th player when all is said and done). But then again players like Sittler will certainly get an according reassessment as well.

Dennis Bonvie · Apr 1, 2014

Nothing here really stands out to me.

Except maybe Vaclav Nedmoansky. That made me chuckle.

Dennis Bonvie · Apr 1, 2014

unknown33 said:
Okay I said earlier I don't, but I REALLY have to point out one more thing:

27 Igor Larionov
75 Vladmir Petrov
77 Alexander Maltsev

And yeah I'm already aware of your reasoning.

Hardy is a true Patriot, showing love for the defector over the loyal Commies. Also why Fedorov was so high.

VMBM · Apr 2, 2014

Hardyvan's (initial) list is not... conventional. That's the nicest way I can put it.

unknown33 said:
Okay I said earlier I don't, but I REALLY have to point out one more thing:

27 Igor Larionov
75 Vladmir Petrov
77 Alexander Maltsev

And yeah I'm already aware of your reasoning.

N-H-L

bigbuffalo313 · Apr 2, 2014

Dennis Bonvie said:
Nothing here really stands out to me.

Except maybe Vaclav Nedmoansky. That made me chuckle.

Nothing stands out to you? Really? Nothing? Not Lemieux at 4, Yzerman at 5, or Fedorov at 10? None of these that are only in the first ten on the list?

Theokritos · Apr 2, 2014

VMBM said:
N-H-L

The funny thing is that quite a few people use Larionov's NHL record as an argument against earlier Soviet players like Maltsev or Petrov. The train of thought is: Larionov wasn't that great in a better league (NHL), ergo it's reasonable to say others wouldn't have been that great either. Hardy on the other hand takes Larionov's NHL record as a proof that he was really good and discredits Maltsev & Petrov for not (being able to) delivering the same proof.

Hardyvan123 · Apr 2, 2014

Theokritos said:
The funny thing is that quite a few people use Larionov's NHL record as an argument against earlier Soviet players like Maltsev or Petrov. The train of thought is: Larionov wasn't that great in a better league (NHL), ergo it's reasonable to say others wouldn't have been that great either. Hardy on the other hand takes Larionov's NHL record as a proof that he was really good and discredits Maltsev & Petrov for not (being able to) delivering the same proof.

Truth be told, I'm still not sure how to place Malstev or Petrov.

Larinov might not have have the scoring totals that the other 2 guys had in Russian league play but his role was more of a midfielder in the Green Unit and he is every bit as impressive as the earlier 2 guys in Russian and international play, given his role IMO.

Also the fact of the matter is that Larionov had an excellent NHL career, given his age during that time frame and he gets credit for it.

Malstev and Petrov are harder to peg for a couple of reasons IMO.

The first big gap is that Igor simply aged much better than the other 2 guys who were basically done in their earlish 30's, Igor played in the 96 WC and 01 Olympic games (where he wore the C and didn't look out of place at all).

The second thing is the WC and Olpic games of the late 60's and early to mid 70's was way less competitive than it would be alter on in the 80's when Igor did play for Russia internationally and Igor was no slouch in international play either, although a quick look at the number might indicate the 2 earlier guys were better, I don't think this to be the case.

I did allow for some guesswork and possibility of the 2 earlier guys playing in "an integrated NHL in the late 60's and early 70's but with rapid expansion and the WHA as well it's hard to really project them as being better than Igor would have been in the 80's really.

MXD · Apr 2, 2014

Hardyvan123 said:
Truth be told, I'm still not sure how to place Malstev or Petrov.

Larinov might not have have the scoring totals that the other 2 guys had in Russian league play but his role was more of a midfielder in the Green Unit and he is every bit as impressive as the earlier 2 guys in Russian and international play, given his role IMO.

Also the fact of the matter is that Larionov had an excellent NHL career, given his age during that time frame and he gets credit for it.

Malstev and Petrov are harder to peg for a couple of reasons IMO.

The first big gap is that Igor simply aged much better than the other 2 guys who were basically done in their earlish 30's, Igor played in the 96 WC and 01 Olympic games (where he wore the C and didn't look out of place at all).

The second thing is the WC and Olpic games of the late 60's and early to mid 70's was way less competitive than it would be alter on in the 80's when Igor did play for Russia internationally and Igor was no slouch in international play either, although a quick look at the number might indicate the 2 earlier guys were better, I don't think this to be the case.

I did allow for some guesswork and possibility of the 2 earlier guys playing in "an integrated NHL in the late 60's and early 70's but with rapid expansion and the WHA as well it's hard to really project them as being better than Igor would have been in the 80's really.

Still, compared to their contemporaries, both these players didn't age badly. I guess Larionov deserves a bonus for aging better.

tarheelhockey · Apr 2, 2014

Non-NHL players are simply hard to place, I don't see why that's a big deal.

TheDevilMadeMe · Apr 2, 2014

Here's an interesting way to look at his round 2 voting. I'm bolding all the players who were in their primes after 1980. Trottier, Dionne, and Perreault, who had prime years in both the 70s and 80s are italicized bold

Perfect record in rounds 4-5 and 9-13, and only a couple of players off in most other rounds.

TheDevilMadeMe · Apr 2, 2014

tarheelhockey said:
Non-NHL players are simply hard to place, I don't see why that's a big deal.

I think the big deal is that eye test aside, Maltsev and Petrov had unambiguously superior accomplishments in international tournaments and in the domestic Soviet league than Larionov did. (Not to mention most fans of Soviet hockey would rank Maltsev ahead at least on the eye test). I understand ranking Larionov higher than them based on his NHL career, and the fact that he had fewer opportunities to play internationally due to the fall of the USSR when he was in the middle of his prime. I wouldn't do it, but I at least understand there is an argument to be made. But that far ahead?

Hardyvan123 · Apr 2, 2014

bigbuffalo313 said:
Hardy doesn't put to much emphasis on modern guys, he had Lemieux at 4

But seriously this was the list I was waiting for the most. I am not disappointed.

Bernie Nicholls at 65 needs a lot of explaining

To me he is a bit of a poor man's Phil Espositio (might have been more like him had he played more with Wayne really).

Phil had huge holes in his scoring resume before the trade and the huge Orr affect changed his career big time.

Everyone is going to point to Bernie in 89 and say it was all Wayne right?

Well in large affect sure it was but He did get 150 points, Kurri never really came close to that.

Also Bernie had some excellent scoring seasons without Wayne in LA and had later success in Edmonton, NYR and Chicago as well.

Pretty decent playoff scorer, even without Wayne and sure 65 isn't out of line IMO for a high scoring center like Bernie.

tarheelhockey · Apr 2, 2014

TheDevilMadeMe said:
I think the big deal is that eye test aside, Maltsev and Petrov had unambiguously superior accomplishments in international tournaments and in the domestic Soviet league than Larionov did.

That's true, but there's also a chronological gap in play. I think Hardy's been pretty consistent about his opinion that there's a big difference between the 1960s/70s era and the 1980s/90s era. In this case it's even further exacerbated by the fact that we really don't have the relative strength of the Soviet league pinned down.

I don't personally agree with that ranking, but I don't think it's absurd given the assumption that the 70s Soviet league was significantly weaker than the 80s Soviet league, let alone the 90s NHL.

HOH Top 60 Centers List & Voting Record - Hardyvan123

Registered User

Registered User

Registered User

Registered User

Original #4

Registered User

The Cyclone

Student Of The Game

tweet@HardyintheWack

Registered User

tweet@HardyintheWack

Registered User

Original #4

Registered User

Registered User

And it didn't even bring me down

Registered User

Global Moderator

tweet@HardyintheWack

Original #4

Offside Review Specialist

Registered User

Registered User

tweet@HardyintheWack

Offside Review Specialist

Ad

Ad

Ad