HOH Top 60 Centers List & Voting Record - Hardyvan123

[Theokritos]

Non-NHL players are simply hard to place, I don't see why that's a big deal.

If you go by his non-NHL record then Larionov is not that far ahead of Petrov and Maltsev (if you decide he is ahead at all, but Hardy has his arguments). Then you give Larionov additional credit for his NHL record, okay, he's clearly ahead now. But 50 spots?

 

[tarheelhockey]

If you go by his non-NHL record then Larionov is not that far ahead of Petrov and Maltsev (if you decide he is ahead at all, but Hardy has his arguments). Then you give Larionov additional credit for his NHL record, okay, he's clearly ahead now. But 50 spots?

Guessing Hardy sees Larionov as the Soviet equivalent of a Delvecchio or Boucher? Those were the guys right ahead of him on his Round 1 list.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

That's true, but there's also a chronological gap in play. I think Hardy's been pretty consistent about his opinion that there's a big difference between the 1960s/70s era and the 1980s/90s era. In this case it's even further exacerbated by the fact that we really don't have the relative strength of the Soviet league pinned down.

I don't personally agree with that ranking, but I don't think it's absurd given the assumption that the 70s Soviet league was significantly weaker than the 80s Soviet league, let alone the 90s NHL.

This assumption is absurd, however.

I mean, to me, it's clear from his round 2 voting record that he just thinks the 80s/90s/00s are much better than anything that came before, Soviet league or not.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Guessing Hardy sees Larionov as the Soviet equivalent of a Delvecchio or Boucher? Those were the guys right ahead of him on his Round 1 list.

Hardy's opinion on Delvecchio tanked in Round 2, however.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I think the big deal is that eye test aside, Maltsev and Petrov had unambiguously superior accomplishments in international tournaments and in the domestic Soviet league than Larionov did. (Not to mention most fans of Soviet hockey would rank Maltsev ahead at least on the eye test). I understand ranking Larionov higher than them based on his NHL career, and the fact that he had fewer opportunities to play internationally due to the fall of the USSR when he was in the middle of his prime. I wouldn't do it, but I at least understand there is an argument to be made. But that far ahead?

Probably not, and I forgot to allude to that in my previous post.

In my original round 1 list, I wasn't sure where to slot them and getting them on the list was more important than the actual placement.

All that being said, both guys played primarily in the 70's (their peak) and how would other rank them compared to their NHL counterparts during the same time frame?

In the top 60 Dman project guys from the 70's , both NHL and, non NHLers seemed to get a real boost and maybe something like that was happening with some voters with these 2 guys as well.

Their play Against Canada in international play (and it's not even all best on best but alot of non NHL Canadians) isn't overwhelming enough to swing the tide on them.

Realistically they could both be top 60 guys (if they get every benefit of the doubt) or not be top 60 guys (even without the glass being totally half full, if you know what I mean).

Igor, and his time and age in San Jose and Detroit , actually did excellent for his age and there is no guesswork or projection about that so I weighed it more heavily.

 

[bigbuffalo313]

To me he is a bit of a poor man's Phil Espositio (might have been more like him had he played more with Wayne really).

Phil had huge holes in his scoring resume before the trade and the huge Orr affect changed his career big time.

Everyone is going to point to Bernie in 89 and say it was all Wayne right?

Well in large affect sure it was but He did get 150 points, Kurri never really came close to that.

Also Bernie had some excellent scoring seasons without Wayne in LA and had later success in Edmonton, NYR and Chicago as well.

Pretty decent playoff scorer, even without Wayne and sure 65 isn't out of line IMO for a high scoring center like Bernie.

He reached 80 points 6 times in his 19 year career. He made it to triple digits 3 times.

Espo won 5 Art Rosses, the only ones he lost were to Orr. He won an Art Ross when Orr had 64 points.

Also when Gretzky was there he had 150 points in 79 games and 75 points in 47 games (a 127 points pace) which were the only times he projected over 101 points, so yeah you could say it was all Gretzky

 

[Hardyvan123]

Guessing Hardy sees Larionov as the Soviet equivalent of a Delvecchio or Boucher? Those were the guys right ahead of him on his Round 1 list.

Hardy's opinion on Delvecchio tanked in Round 2, however.

During the project my "career" leanings were overtaken somewhat by the "was he ever the best player in the world" or in the mix argument (and how that world looked as well.

Truth be told he is hard to judge as I never saw him play in his prime or peak but it's pretty obvious Gordie was driving the bus in Detroit, to what extent is hard to gauge but does every HHOF team mate get an automatic "yes he was really that good and it's wasn't all about Gordie"?

I think that if one looks at the competition in rounds 7,8 and 9 that was the largest reason why Alex was left off my ballot.

Obviously not everyone would agree but he did last 3 rounds so that does tell something of what the group thought as well.

 

[tarheelhockey]

This assumption is absurd, however.

I'm not saying it's correct or not, but on what basis does it seem completely absurd?

Hardy's opinion on Delvecchio tanked in Round 2, however.

True.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm not saying it's correct or not, but on what basis does it seem completely absurd?

1972 Summit Series, 1974 Super Series, 1979 Challenge Cup. Not to mention the many exhibition games between the USSR teams and the NHL teams.

See also the general opinions of fans of Soviet and international hockey.

 

[Hardyvan123]

He reached 80 points 6 times in his 19 year career. He made it to triple digits 3 times.

Espo won 5 Art Rosses, the only ones he lost were to Orr. He won an Art Ross when Orr had 64 points.

Also when Gretzky was there he had 150 points in 79 games and 75 points in 47 games (a 127 points pace) which were the only times he projected over 101 points, so yeah you could say it was all Gretzky

we are going to agree to disagree on Phil, and heck I ahd him in 15th (along with someone else) and Bernie 65th.

Look at the guys on every list from 61-80 and there is a ton of divergence there, as there should be IMO.

Bernie has well over a dozen good to excellent NHL seasons and his resume is really quite good and heck the Wayne thing gets dismissed with Kurri but it's all Wayne for Bernie?

He did score 150 points with Wayne, Kurri's best was 135 points.

Maybe my placing Bernie 65th is giving him some credit that you aren't giving him?

 

[bigbuffalo313]

we are going to agree to disagree on Phil, and heck I ahd him in 15th (along with someone else) and Bernie 65th.

Look at the guys on every list from 61-80 and there is a ton of divergence there, as there should be IMO.

Bernie has well over a dozen good to excellent NHL seasons and his resume is really quite good and heck the Wayne thing gets dismissed with Kurri but it's all Wayne for Bernie?

He did score 150 points with Wayne, Kurri's best was 135 points.

Maybe my placing Bernie 65th is giving him some credit that you aren't giving him?

65 is just too high for him. Top 80 sure I had him in mine. 65 though, no.

Also what does skirting have to do with him?

 

[MXD]

65 is just too high for him. Top 80 sure I had him in mine. 65 though, no.

Also what does skirting have to do with him?

With regards, a 15 rank gap between 65 and 80 (indeed, the biggest possible gap between HV and you) isn't as big as a 15 ranks gap between 25th and 40th. I myself had Nichols in the top70 (and would probably take it back) and would have no problems flipping, say, Novy and Nichols in my list.

But I'd have lots of problems flipping, say, Dionne and Sakic.

I can't say that I like the voting trend in round 2, and I think I made that very clear then. I mean, why bother ? A potential 80ies and beyond project would be perfectly fine even if I'd end up cringing at every HV intervention.

 

[VMBM]

Larinov might not have have the scoring totals that the other 2 guys had in Russian league play but his role was more of a midfielder in the Green Unit and he is every bit as impressive as the earlier 2 guys in Russian and international play, given his role IMO.

Has this been proven, i.e. that he had a clearly different role? Or could it be that Petrov and Maltsev scored more simply because they were better scorers?

The first big gap is that Igor simply aged much better than the other 2 guys who were basically done in their earlish 30's, Igor played in the 96 WC and 01 Olympic games (where he wore the C and didn't look out of place at all).

For Soviet players, Maltsev and Petrov seemed to have aged pretty well, though. In the 1981 WHC, Maltsev was the 3rd best scorer and was named the best forward; Petrov was the #8 scorer and, for example, outscored slightly his much younger linemates Makarov and Krutov. Maltsev turned 32 during the tournament and Petrov was 33 (turned 34 a couple of months later).

The second thing is the WC and Olpic games of the late 60's and early to mid 70's was way less competitive than it would be alter on in the 80's when Igor did play for Russia internationally and Igor was no slouch in international play either, although a quick look at the number might indicate the 2 earlier guys were better, I don't think this to be the case.

In what way were the Olympics "way more competitive" in the 1980s? With the exception of USSR and Czechoslovakia, none of the top countries had their best possible teams playing, just like it was in the 1970s.

As far as the World Championships go, do you base that claim on the fact that Canada started sending teams with NHL players in 1977? Those Canadian teams weren't usually exactly world beaters, you know.
I would also add that Czechoslovakia was stronger in the 1970s than in the 1980s. They begun to lose some of their young players (by defection) in the early 1980s. In the late '60s/early '70s, Sweden and Finland also had more consistent/coherent teams with all the best players still available, whereas in the 1980s, this was not the case (outside the Canada Cups). It is true, though, that both Sweden and Finland were developing better and better players all the time (as the years went by) and that balanced things out a lot. However, IMO the "way less competitive" argument is really questionable.

Don't forget that Alexander Maltsev has 3 WHC best forward awards (Larionov none) and did a lot better in the Soviet MVP voting too. So it's not all about numbers and never has been. Petrov's case rests more on the statistics.

As for Larionov's contemporaries, it's no shame to be clearly inferior to Sergei Makarov, but even Vladimir Krutov was a much more decorated player than Larionov in the Soviet league/internationally - a guy that you don't rate.

 

[VMBM]

If you go by his non-NHL record then Larionov is not that far ahead of Petrov and Maltsev

I don't see him being ahead at all - if anything, he is clearly behind Maltsev at least.