HF's Spring 2005 Organizational Rankings 1-15

[Gwyddbwyll]

Under THN's methodology Pitkanen counts, becuase they go strictly on age, which IMO is the fairest way to go.

Why should a team like Carolina be "punished" in the rankings because Eric Staal doesn't count, yet the Flyers can count Carter & Richards from the same draft ?

If you go on age alone then you start missing NCAA talent because they often pass the age limit before they've gone pro. Erik Cole and Ryan Malone would be two examples.

 

[Sam]

Which is the sure thing with higher potential and which is the maybe? Greene is about as sure thing as there is when it comes to being a blueliner. There is that question of whether it will be as a dominating physical blueliner, or a guy who tags around as a 6th with a lot of PIMS. And I don't recall ever saying Gleason can't play defence... I just said he'd put up better numbers than Greene would, but that Greene has an edge defensively.

Gleason has already proven himself at the NHL as a solid third pairing defenseman. Greene is a very safe prospect, but that’s very safe compared to other prospects that have never played a game in the NHL. Gleason is a third pairing defenseman at worst and projects to be a #2 defenseman. Greene projects to be a very solid second pairing defenseman but might not make the NHL. I would think most would prefer the former over the latter.

Yeah sorry, I forgot HF puts past years above the current year... My mistake. And you are right, polls aren't the be all and end all. At one point during the season, there was a poll about who was the better goaltender, Dubnyk or Schwarz... at the time Dubnyk had a GAA about half a goal lower and a sv% 20 points higher and the poll was almost 50/50. Just for reference, those are the same types of numbers Jani Rita put up, and look at what he's done so far. Strictly based on performance, Dubnyk has played better than Tukonen.

I found the poll comparing Dubnyk's and Schwarz's seasons. The results favored Dubnyk 2 to 1 over Schwarz, not 50/50. The ratio should have favored Dubnyk by more than it did, but the results were in favor of the right guy by a pretty fair margin. Again, I don't think that the polls are any kind of definitive authority as they tend to be somewhat hype-based, but they do provide a relatively neutral view (Tukonen would have won his poll without the votes of any Kings fans).

Tukonen's numbers were similar to Rita's numbers, and he could potentially end up like Rita. Of course, Rita went through three seasons in the AHL of basically stalled progression.

Dubnyk may have had a better season, but Tukonen is still generally seen as a better prospect. I believe THN had Tukonen in its top 50 of the Future Watch, and Dubnyk didn't make the top 75 IIRC.

But if you look at his point totals from his 20 and 21 year old season, it projects to a 3rd/4th liner. Look back at how many 1st liners in the NHL averaged less than 1 ppg in the AHL by 20 years old. Then look for how many 2nd liners averaged less than .75 ppg in the AHL by 20 years old. Lehoux may be that one that bucks the trend, but I wouldn't bet more than a wooden nickle on it. Lots of guys have the big numbers in their 3rd/4th year, and it simply has not translated to the NHL level. Like I said... there is the hope that he may be the another Michael Ryder, but the odds are stacked against him.

Lehoux is a prosect that, unless he suddenly has a drastic change in playing style and mentality, either makes it as a top two line scorer or doesn’t make it at all. After his first two seasons, Lehoux looked like he wouldn’t make it in the NHL. Then, he exploded this season, and his stock skyrocketed. True, many prospects become big AHL scorers in their third and fourth pro seasons and don’t make it in the NHL. Of course, those players didn’t do it during an NHL year-long lockout with many NHLers in the AHL. If one had to choose between Lehoux and Lynch, it would be a toss-up, depending on team needs. As I said earlier, McKeens, a neutral source, ranked the players very closely in early December (with Lehoux 16 spots higher). Since then, one prospect (Lehoux) got injured and missed the rest of the season while the other prospect (Lynch) played poorly. So, from a neutral point of view, their values are roughly equivalent.

Another thing wrong with those polls is that people who only know their teams prospects suggest names. In one of the other 2003 mock re-do's Jacques was a very early 2nd round pick. I don't put much stock in either of these as they are very flavour of the month type of things.

FYI, this poll was not decided by Kings fans. Only two of the posters voting for Pushkarev were Kings fans, and Pushkarev would have won the vote regardless of whether Kings fans voted or not.

Also, I tried searching for the other mock re-do, searching "Jacques 2003 draft" in both the poll and the prospect boards. I found another re-do the 2003 draft thread done in January, which had Pushkarev 39th and Jacques as an option for #56, and a rank the 2003 forwards thread, where an Oilers fan had Pushkarev higher. So from a neutral (and one Oilers fan) point of view, Pushkarev's value is higher than Jacques' value. But since I'm not high on Pushkarev, I put their values as roughly equivalent.

 

[Diaboli]

Why do you feel as though I was referring to you personally, I didn't quote any of your post....

I never said there was anything wrong with you picking the Flyers prospects over the Habs...so... what's is wrong with you?

Check post #88, and come to me again.

 

[Kevin Forbes]

Not necessarily. I think, to a great extent, that is correct. But if those three players are Jack Johnson, Ryan Suter, and Dion Phaneuf, they could easily be better than a team with 10 legit prospects at defense.

right but as prospects and having little to no NHL experience, it could be more likely to get a handful of NHL quality blueliners out of the ten, then out of the three (yes, even that three).
At this stage no one's NHL impact is for sure and it is very much a crapshoot, so the focus on having depth in a position is that the odds of having someone worthy come out of that are much more likely then only having a couple key guys.

 

[417]

Check post #88, and come to me again.

That'swhat you're talking about?

I didin't call you out personally...I was simply saying that everyone was complaining about the Habs like they were the only "mistake". I sarcastically advised all Habs fans to stay away from this thread because of that, I wasn't saying that it was wrong of you to take Philly's prospects over the Habs...anyways, I apologize if you took it that way...

 

[Sonny Lamateena]

This isn't about Crosby, it's about what's fair. And discussing this with a Ranger fan and Flyer fan who's respective teams are a big part of the problem that caused this mess, is pretty funny. But hey Rangers fan, at least Philly made the playoffs with a $70 million dollar payroll. As for your team, $80 million spent and no playoffs, the NHL should be taking picks away from the Rangers instead of giving them.

I have to agree the Rangers are a huge part of the problem, their lack of success has hurt the game immensely. In 1994 The Rangers were bringing in all kinds of new fans and sponsors, the tv ratings were climbing, and it lead to the big US tv deals. People were saying how the NHL was this rising league and how it was cooler then the NBA. Since then the Rangers have become a joke and the NHL has followed suit. If they even get a tv deal, the NHL can probably be more closely compared with the CFL then the NBA. All true NHL fans need to forgive the Rangers for their past sins and should begin a petition to have the NHL award Crosby to the Rangers for the sake of the leagues health and future.

 

[Pepper]

Shouldn't Niittymäki be included as he was eligible last september and doesn't turn 25 until june 18th?

If Niittymäki is included, Flyers are easily a top5 organisation IMHO, ahead the likes of Montreal and Nashville.

 

[Seph]

What ratings? At least you can quantify regular season finishes. Are they going to consult HF in rankiing the best prospect pools?

While I don't realistically see it ever happening (or even really think it should, honestly) it wouldn't be that hard to quantify. I mean, seeing that we're going off the assumption that higher draft picks result in better prospects (considering that's the whole reason anyone cares about the order, it's kinda hard to argue, although obviously it's not always true) you could simply come up with a formula that calculates using draft position to determine quality of prospect pools. Perhaps an average draft position, or something along those lines.

 

[pei fan]

Columbus ranked too low, Chicago too high.
Columbus-Some will say Zherdev really isn't a prospect anymore but technically
he is and for the purpose of this ranking he is.Leclaire is a much better prospect
than Crawford whos stock has fallen in the last year.Fritsche looked very good
in the Memorial Cup so his stock must be up.Columbus has some depth as well
but perhaps that is where Chicago is a little stronger.
I would agree the Flyers should be higher on the strength of Richards and
Carter and you can't compare them to other players just on point getting
potential as they bring alot more than that to the table plus they fit into the
flyers brand of hockey perfectly.

 

[JR#9*]

I have to agree the Rangers are a huge part of the problem, their lack of success has hurt the game immensely. In 1994 The Rangers were bringing in all kinds of new fans and sponsors, the tv ratings were climbing, and it lead to the big US tv deals. People were saying how the NHL was this rising league and how it was cooler then the NBA. Since then the Rangers have become a joke and the NHL has followed suit. If they even get a tv deal, the NHL can probably be more closely compared with the CFL then the NBA. All true NHL fans need to forgive the Rangers for their past sins and should begin a petition to have the NHL award Crosby to the Rangers for the sake of the leagues health and future.

Why are people so clueless??

The Rangers did more for the game than any other team as far as introducing the game to new people with their unbelievable '94 Cup run.

That team skated, they played with grit as well as skill.They were aggressive.Bottom line is that team played the game the way it was meant to be played and a ton of people started to get interested in hockey.It was ready to take the next step.


Then what happens.....2 things----

The lockout killed the buzz hockey was generating and then the worst thing happed next...TRAP hockey took over the game spearheaded by Lemaire and his trapping Devils.

And before the Dev fans and everybody else start crying like little girls understand this...Nobody can argue it's success as a hockey strategy...NOBODY including me.

It works and it's not illegal, at least not yet.

That being said once the Devils won in '95 with this generic brand of hockey which just took practicly all skill and skating away from the game and everybody else followed suit because it allowed for lesser skilled teams (and as far as owners were concerned, less expensive teams) to be successful against the better skilled teams(i.e. the big market teams).

Skill and talent were no longer the determining factor on who won and lost the game.It now became who can turn their team the most robotic in playing as cautious a game as possible.

5 man groups moving as one to clog the neutral zone...2 steps this way...one stride that way...no real skating anywhere!!!!

Quality scoring chances plummeted as a result and everybody(except maybe the NYR's and 3-4 other teams) followed suit because with the restrictions placed on the game by the size of the rink combined w/the offsides, 2-line pass and icing rules it became near impossible to beat these teams by trying to outskate or outskill a team that was just going to chip pucks and fall back to clog center ice and the wait for that one chance to counter when the other team pushes too aggressively.

Soon it became appartent to everybody that you couldn't outskill or outskate this "brand" of hockey(to everybody outside the Rangers at least!) and the motto became if you can't beat them join them and the momentum in the US went in the sh1tter as NOBODY wanted to watch a 2+hour game played 90% of the time between the F'in Bluelines!

What passed for offense at this point where bad angle shots just thrown at the net hoping for a rebound, deflection, or fluke play!

Oddman rushes were minimized....you remember them, where a 3 on 2 or 2 on 1 situation would arise and everybody in the arena would rise to their feet in excitment!

Point a game players were superstars...30 goal men top snipers!!!

And this brings us to today where table F'in tennis outdraws the NHL and ESPN/ABC doesn't want to touch it with a 10ft pole after having learned their lesson which they should've seen after FOX got burned with pathetic viewership.

NBC only signed on because it's a practicly risk-free deal.

This is why the game is in crisis.

Players salaries rose in anticipation of cashing in on the NHL taking the next step after the NYR run in '94 which it looked like it was going to do but when the style of play switched drasticly from a skating/skill exciting game to a dump it in, chip it out, no skating, minimal skill on display, take no chances hockey which translated to minimal entertainment which then translated into nonexistent TV ratings!!!!!

This is why the NHL is gathering all these panels to try and correct all these terrible factors that are almost ruining the F'in game so before clowns(cough..Darkside..cough) start firing shots at the NYR's for ruining the game let's really look at why the NHL went from an alltime high after a RANGER win in '94 and was on the brink of taking the next step to an abysmal spiral following the DEVILS trap led win that changed the way teams had to play the game and started a near death spiral, especially in the TV world where all the other league make their bread and butter.

 

[salty justice]

Leclaire is a much better prospect than Crawford whos stock has fallen in the last year.

No one is arguing that Crawford is better than Leclaire at this point, but what makes you think Crawford has fallen? He just got off a great season on a lousy team and keeps getting better and better. Why would you even make this comparison if in the end you agree that Chicago has better prospects?

 

[King'sPawn]

Pushkarev played the majority of the season on the second line. The first line for the Calgary Hitmen consisted of Getzlaf, Ladd and Shaun Landolt, a prospect for the Toronto Maple Leafs.

That's true, he did play the majority of the season... but early on, he earned a spot on the top line with Getzlaf and Ladd. He also got PP time with both of them.

 

[Old Hickory]

Why are people so clueless??

The Rangers did more for the game than any other team as far as introducing the game to new people with their unbelievable '94 Cup run.

That team skated, they played with grit as well as skill.They were aggressive.Bottom line is that team played the game the way it was meant to be played and a ton of people started to get interested in hockey.It was ready to take the next step.


Then what happens.....2 things----

The lockout killed the buzz hockey was generating and then the worst thing happed next...TRAP hockey took over the game spearheaded by Lemaire and his trapping Devils.

And before the Dev fans and everybody else start crying like little girls understand this...Nobody can argue it's success as a hockey strategy...NOBODY including me.

It works and it's not illegal, at least not yet.

That being said once the Devils won in '95 with this generic brand of hockey which just took practicly all skill and skating away from the game and everybody else followed suit because it allowed for lesser skilled teams (and as far as owners were concerned, less expensive teams) to be successful against the better skilled teams(i.e. the big market teams).

Skill and talent were no longer the determining factor on who won and lost the game.It now became who can turn their team the most robotic in playing as cautious a game as possible.

5 man groups moving as one to clog the neutral zone...2 steps this way...one stride that way...no real skating anywhere!!!!

Quality scoring chances plummeted as a result and everybody(except maybe the NYR's and 3-4 other teams) followed suit because with the restrictions placed on the game by the size of the rink combined w/the offsides, 2-line pass and icing rules it became near impossible to beat these teams by trying to outskate or outskill a team that was just going to chip pucks and fall back to clog center ice and the wait for that one chance to counter when the other team pushes too aggressively.

Soon it became appartent to everybody that you couldn't outskill or outskate this "brand" of hockey(to everybody outside the Rangers at least!) and the motto became if you can't beat them join them and the momentum in the US went in the sh1tter as NOBODY wanted to watch a 2+hour game played 90% of the time between the F'in Bluelines!

What passed for offense at this point where bad angle shots just thrown at the net hoping for a rebound, deflection, or fluke play!

Oddman rushes were minimized....you remember them, where a 3 on 2 or 2 on 1 situation would arise and everybody in the arena would rise to their feet in excitment!

Point a game players were superstars...30 goal men top snipers!!!

And this brings us to today where table F'in tennis outdraws the NHL and ESPN/ABC doesn't want to touch it with a 10ft pole after having learned their lesson which they should've seen after FOX got burned with pathetic viewership.

NBC only signed on because it's a practicly risk-free deal.

This is why the game is in crisis.

Players salaries rose in anticipation of cashing in on the NHL taking the next step after the NYR run in '94 which it looked like it was going to do but when the style of play switched drasticly from a skating/skill exciting game to a dump it in, chip it out, no skating, minimal skill on display, take no chances hockey which translated to minimal entertainment which then translated into nonexistent TV ratings!!!!!

This is why the NHL is gathering all these panels to try and correct all these terrible factors that are almost ruining the F'in game so before clowns(cough..Darkside..cough) start firing shots at the NYR's for ruining the game let's really look at why the NHL went from an alltime high after a RANGER win in '94 and was on the brink of taking the next step to an abysmal spiral following the DEVILS trap led win that changed the way teams had to play the game and started a near death spiral, especially in the TV world where all the other league make their bread and butter.

how did this argument end up in this thread?

 

[King'sPawn]

how did this argument end up in this thread?

Let me try to explain how:
- There's this technique called typing. It consists of applying your fingers (or other body part, or a utensil such as a stylus for the paralyzed) onto various buttons on a "keyboard." The buttons transmit data from the "keyboard" onto the screen.

- There's this other technique called staying on topic.

One technique was mistakenly learned before the other.

 

[xander]

how did this argument end up in this thread?

because people get annoyed when ignorant posters personally blaim they're team for the downfall of the NHL.

 

[The Old Master]

how did this argument end up in this thread?

no nhl playoffs

 

[Clash*]

I think the Panthers are too low and the Wild are too high.

You're evidently only goin on names of prospects and not results then when it comes to Florida. Not one of Florida's high profile prospects lived up to their billing this past season, and I'm a Panther fan.

 

[Leaf Army]

For anyone who's interested, here's HF's organizational rankings from the year 2000. These types of things are always a real interesting read in hindsight.

Link

 

[tom_servo]

*sings*

"In the year two-thousaaaaaaaaaaaaaand!"

 

[wedge]

For anyone who's interested, here's HF's organizational rankings from the year 2000. These types of things are always a real interesting read in hindsight.

Link

ahahah so funny to read some of these things

 

[Kaizer]

The Avalanche lost a lot of prospects in trades as well as the re-entry of Ramzi Abid into this years draft. It might take awhile for Colorado to get back to the top of the list.

What a shame, despite Avalanche had won Stanley Cup that season

 

[Barnaby]

For anyone who's interested, here's HF's organizational rankings from the year 2000. These types of things are always a real interesting read in hindsight.

Link

Flames have a great top line on the way (Fata, Tkazcuk, Saprykin)

 

[David A. Rainer]

Flames have a great top line on the way (Fata, Tkazcuk, Saprykin)

Hindsight's a b!+ch, ain't it? Lol!

 

[Barnaby]

Hindsight's a b!+ch, ain't it? Lol!

Yea man, some of this stuff is great...

Buffalo: It also wouldn't hurt to get a few more offensive players like Norm Milley.

 

[King'sPawn]

Hindsight's a b!+ch, ain't it? Lol!

Were there any proposals, by chance, that had responses such as "No way Fata gets traded. He's untouchable!