HFBoards Top 32 Wingers - #7

[LT]

Rank	Player	Votes	Team	GP	G	A	P
1	Nikita Kucherov	80/97 (93%)	Tampa Bay Lightning	47	25	44	69
2	Kirill Kaprizov	113/225 (50%)	Minnesota Wild	81	47	61	108
3	Mitch Marner	46/226 (20%)	Toronto Maple Leafs	72	35	62	97
4	Artemi Panarin	58/171 (34%)	New York Rangers	75	22	74	96
5	Brad Marchand	47/184 (26%)	Boston Bruins	70	32	48	80
6	Jonathan Huberdeau	41/153 (27%)	Calgary Flames	80	30	85	115
7
8
9
10

To add:
Nikolaj Ehlers
Vladimir Tarasenko
William Nylander
Joe Pavelski
Alex DeBrincat
Max Pacioretty
Patrik Laine
Andrei Svechnikov
Brady Tkachuk
Timo Meier
Chris Kreider
Evander Kane

Click to read more...

 

[nbwingsfan]

Called it

I’m not ignoring anything.

If P/60 is what really showed who was the best offensively then explain to me why Fiala and Forsberg weren’t better than McDavid

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I’m not ignoring anything.

If P/60 is what really showed who was the best offensively then explain to me why Fiala and Forsberg weren’t better than McDavid

Did they have better p/60 for three straight seasons?

 

[Yepthatsme]

Oh so you can read. Glad to see you own up to the lie.

Assuming deployment on a standard 1st line with PP1:


Duclair is a 55-65 point goal scoring winger
Bennett is a 60-75 point 2 way center
Lindholm is a 65-80 point 2 way center
Tkachuk is a 65-80 point complimentary winger

5v5 p/60 in each of the last 4 seasons:

Tkachuk
2.27
1.97
2.00
3.25

Duclair
2.67
2.04
2.58
2.25

Hmm, certainly looks like they've been quite comparable at 5v5 over the last 4 years, until Tkachuk was boosted by Gaudreau. Duclair was more productive at 5v5 in the prior 3 seasons though.

I'm sure you'll just ignore this or make up some bs excuse, but there it is.

…Bennett just played almost exclusively with the second leading scorer in the league on the team that scored the most goals in the league and paced for 58 points. The mental gymnastics it takes to claim if he got different usage he would add a whopping 30% production is baffling. I refuse to believe that you think when you take away a 115P playmaker in Gaudreau from Calgary, their totals drop down up to 40 points, but when you take away Huberdeau from the Florida duo, theirs go down at most 10 points or somehow increase with Bennett. Regardless of the fact that the duo for Calgary are first line players and Bennett and Duclair are decidedly not. The Florida duo was just out produced by their own third line this very season.

P/60 is pretty meaningless without context. For example, I noticed how you posted Tkachuk’s vs. Duclairs but not Lindholms vs. Bennett. Why don’t we just solve this whole argument right now and do Huberdeau’s vs Gaudreau’s over the last 4 seasons.

Huberdeau
3.57
3.61
3.62
4.44

Gaudreau
3.61
2.65
2.85
4.53

This tells a story that Gaudreau actually relies on playing with Lindholm to be as productive as Huberdeau instead of the other way around.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

…Bennett just played almost exclusively with the second leading scorer in the league on the team that scored the most goals in the league and paced for 58 points. The mental gymnastics it takes to claim if he got different usage he would add a whopping 30% production is baffling. I refuse to believe that you think when you take away a 115P playmaker in Gaudreau from Calgary, their totals drop down up to 40 points, but when you take away Huberdeau from the Florida duo, theirs go down at most 10 points or somehow increase with Bennett. Regardless of the fact that the duo for Calgary are first line players and Bennett and Duclair are decidedly not. The Florida duo was just out produced by their own third line this very season.

P/60 is pretty meaningless without context. For example, I noticed how you posted Tkachuk’s vs. Duclairs but not Lindholms vs. Bennett. Why don’t we just solve this whole argument right now and do Huberdeau’s vs Gaudreau’s over the last 4 seasons.

Huberdeau
3.57
3.61
3.62
4.44

Gaudreau
3.61
2.65
2.85
4.53

This tells a story that Gaudreau actually relies on playing with Lindholm to be as productive as Huberdeau instead of the other way around.

Bennett only played with Huberdeau 65% of his 5v5 time and mostly only PP2 time.

Gaudreau relies on not having to carry around 4th line caliber players like an injured Sean Monahan.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Did they have better p/60 for three straight seasons?

You didn’t answer my question.

I know why you won’t, because your entire argument blows up into a million pieces because P/60 is the easiest argument in existence to pick apart.

McDavids P/60 standings the last three seasons:
14th
1st
17th

Stamkos was better 2/3 seasons.

You must not think he’s all that good, no?

 

[nbwingsfan]

…Bennett just played almost exclusively with the second leading scorer in the league on the team that scored the most goals in the league and paced for 58 points. The mental gymnastics it takes to claim if he got different usage he would add a whopping 30% production is baffling. I refuse to believe that you think when you take away a 115P playmaker in Gaudreau from Calgary, their totals drop down up to 40 points, but when you take away Huberdeau from the Florida duo, theirs go down at most 10 points or somehow increase with Bennett. Regardless of the fact that the duo for Calgary are first line players and Bennett and Duclair are decidedly not. The Florida duo was just out produced by their own third line this very season.

P/60 is pretty meaningless without context. For example, I noticed how you posted Tkachuk’s vs. Duclairs but not Lindholms vs. Bennett. Why don’t we just solve this whole argument right now and do Huberdeau’s vs Gaudreau’s over the last 4 seasons.

Huberdeau
3.57
3.61
3.62
4.44

Gaudreau
3.61
2.65
2.85
4.53

This tells a story that Gaudreau actually relies on playing with Lindholm to be as productive as Huberdeau instead of the other way around.

It’s really just two people who are delusional enough to think Duclair and Bennett are anywhere as close to as good as Lindholm and Tkachuk

They’re actually arguing that Duclair is equal, or even better, offensively than Tkachuk despite being outscored by 40pts

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

You didn’t answer my question.

I know why you won’t, because your entire argument blows up into a million pieces because P/60 is the easiest argument in existence to pick apart.

McDavids P/60 standings the last three seasons:
14th
1st
17th

Stamkos was better 2/3 seasons.

You must not think he’s all that good, no?

McDavid leads the entire league in 5v5 p/60 over the last 3 seasons.

 

[Yepthatsme]

Bennett only played with Huberdeau 65% of his 5v5 time and mostly only PP2 time.

Gaudreau relies on not having to carry around 4th line caliber players like an injured Sean Monahan.

Bennett only played with Huberdeau 65% of his 5v5 time and mostly only PP2 time.

Gaudreau relies on not having to carry around 4th line caliber players like an injured Sean Monahan.

Didn’t you just call out the other poster for ignoring P/60? Also, Bennett just finished 9th on Florida in points per game, why would a player of that caliber sniff your top power play?

Your second point is exactly why Huberdeau is better than Gaudreau. Huberdeau actively carries bottom tier players like Tippett, Wennberg, Connelly and still dominates offensively. Don’t forget Bennett was a ~25 point player before being introduced to Huberdeau as well. Gaudreau has never once shown that ability. Looking at how his and Monahan totals are entangled as Monahan regressed displays this perfectly.

Monahan
63
58
64
82
48
28
Gaudreau
78
61
84
99
58
49

Then Gaudreau gets separated and put with our new best players and his numbers take off again. Gaudreau doesn’t have the ability to put a line on his back the way Huberdeau does.

An even better way to show this: Huberdeau went from his most common linemates in the 20/21 season being Barkov and Dadonov to Hornquist and Wennberg the following year and his P/60 actually went up.

Gaudreau’s P/60 went down a whopping 30-50% when separated from Calgary’s top players.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Didn’t you just call out the other poster for ignoring P/60? Also, Bennett just finished 9th on Florida in points per game, why would a player of that caliber sniff your top power play?

Your second point is exactly why Huberdeau is better than Gaudreau. Huberdeau actively carries bottom tier players like Tippett, Wennberg, Connelly and still dominates offensively. Don’t forget Bennett was a ~25 point player before being introduced to Huberdeau as well. Gaudreau has never once shown that ability. Looking at how his and Monahan totals are entangled as Monahan regressed displays this perfectly.

Monahan
63
58
64
82
48
28
Gaudreau
78
61
84
99
58
49

Then Gaudreau gets separated and put with our new best players and his numbers take off again. Gaudreau doesn’t have the ability to put a line on his back the way Huberdeau does.

You're going to be disappointed if you expect Huberdeau to do what Gaudreau did. He's closer to Tkachuk than Gaudreau.

Everyone who plays with Gaudreau has career years, Monahan was carried around his entire career.

 

[nbwingsfan]

McDavid leads the entire league in 5v5 p/60 over the last 3 seasons.

Yet 2/3 of the last three seasons he wasn’t even top 10.

Hmmm… almost like P/60 is a fairly useless stat and actual points matter more, who knew !

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Yet 2/3 of the last three seasons he wasn’t even top 10.

Hmmm… almost like P/60 is a fairly useless stat and actual points matter more, who knew !

Called it.

 

[Yepthatsme]

You're going to be disappointed if you expect Huberdeau to do what Gaudreau did. He's closer to Tkachuk than Gaudreau.

Everyone who plays with Gaudreau has career years, Monahan was carried around his entire career.

Called it.

How are you actively trying to call out one poster for avoiding “facts” while actively avoiding addressing the numbers that disprove what you’re saying?

Everyone who plays with Huberdeau also has career years, this is the upper echelon of players we are discussing. Huberdeau can just do it with any player while Gaudreau has time and time again proven he needs the best players his team has to offer to thrive. Every down year he has had is when he gets separated from Calgary’s next two best players.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

How are you actively trying to call out one poster for avoiding “facts” while actively avoiding addressing the numbers that disprove what you’re saying?

Everyone who plays with Huberdeau also has career years, this is the upper echelon of players we are discussing. Huberdeau can just do it with any player while Gaudreau has time and time again proven he needs the best players his team has to offer to thrive. Every down year he has had is when he gets separated from Calgary’s next two best players.

Because that's his schtick.

I'm telling you you're going to be disappointed. You talk like Huberdeau has had to carry anyone as bad as Monahan. And no, Monahan is not better than Bennett, or Wennberg for that matter.

 

[Yepthatsme]

Because that's his schtick.

I'm telling you you're going to be disappointed. You talk like Huberdeau has had to carry anyone as bad as Monahan. And no, Monahan is not better than Bennett, or Wennberg for that matter.

Huberdeau carried around Tippett, Connolly, and Hornqvist on top of those two in previous seasons and managed to out score Gaudreau while doing it. You hate Monahan for Gaudreau’s down years, but Huberdeau has done more with less pretty constantly. Calgary’s top line may not be as dominant next year losing two wingers for one, but the benefit of having Huberdeau boost our power play as well as not needing to be with our best players will be massive. Tkachuk literally had to switch positions full time to accommodate Gaudreau.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Huberdeau carried around Tippett, Connolly, and Hornqvist on top of those two in previous seasons and managed to out score Gaudreau while doing it. You hate Monahan for Gaudreau’s down years, but Huberdeau has done more with less pretty constantly. Calgary’s top line may not be as dominant next year losing two wingers for one, but the benefit of having Huberdeau boost our power play as well as not needing to be with our best players will be massive. Tkachuk literally had to switch positions full time to accommodate Gaudreau.

I promise you you'll be disappointed

 

[Givememoneyback]

So you are a liar and illiterate?

Might want to look up the word comparable

Y'all might want to take a break. Both Johns are top 5 wingers and the disagreement doesn't mean much.

You're going to be disappointed if you expect Huberdeau to do what Gaudreau did. He's closer to Tkachuk than Gaudreau.

Everyone who plays with Gaudreau has career years, Monahan was carried around his entire career.

On this point you are wrong. Hubey elevates his linemates, including when he played with Barkov.

 

[Lavar Ball]

Called it.

You get so childish in these Gaudreau threads. Kinda weird how upset you get over and over just because other people think other guys are slightly better. No one thinks Gaudreau is a bad player

 

[Paul4587]

past 4 seasons, which do you prefer?



PLAYER A View attachment 582809


PLAYER B View attachment 582810

Just looking at raw stats ignores that one is a trainwreck defensively.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Y'all might want to take a break. Both Johns are top 5 wingers and the disagreement doesn't mean much.


On this point you are wrong. Hubey elevates his linemates, including when he played with Barkov.

Of course he elevates his linemates, he's an elite winger.

 

[RapidKnight]

These arguments are so baffling I don’t even know where to begin. Monahan was far worse last season than any player Huberdeau has ever played with. There are no reasonable comparisons to made with Gaudreau’s previous seasons because no one knows exactly when he completely fell off a cliff.

These are stats from this season:

	5v5 P/60	*AL P/60
Gaudreau	3.60	2.86	+26%
Huberdeau	2.97	2.18	+36%

*Average Linemate P/60

Huberdeau had better production relative to his linemates but it doesn’t completely cancel out the fact Gaudreau’s line was much better. Just because Huberdeau’s linemates are worse doesn’t mean Huberdeau is better. Correlation =/= Causation. Gaudreau’s season was better than and season Huberdeau ever had. We’ll see if he can maintain it.

 

[amnesiac]

Just looking at raw stats ignores that one is a trainwreck defensively.

well that just supports my argument too then

These arguments are so baffling I don’t even know where to begin. Monahan was far worse last season than any player Huberdeau has ever played with. There are no reasonable comparisons to made with Gaudreau’s previous seasons because no one knows exactly when he completely fell off a cliff.

These are stats from this season:

	5v5 P/60	*AL P/60
Gaudreau	3.60	2.86	+26%
Huberdeau	2.97	2.18	+36%

*Average Linemate P/60

Huberdeau had better production relative to his linemates but it doesn’t completely cancel out the fact Gaudreau’s line was much better. Just because Huberdeau’s linemates are worse doesn’t mean Huberdeau is better. Correlation =/= Causation. Gaudreau’s season was better than Huberdeau ever had.

and defensively?

 

[RapidKnight]

well that just supports my argument too then


and defensively?

Gaudreau and co. play a much more responsible style while Huberdeau bleeds shots whenever he’s on the ice. Huberdeau’s takeaway stats are also massively inflated by Florida’s arena stats. Gaudreau isn’t the better in zone defender but he gets the edge overall.

 

[amnesiac]

Gaudreau and co. play a much more responsible style while Huberdeau bleeds shots whenever he’s on the ice. Huberdeau’s takeaway stats are also massively inflated by Florida’s arena stats. Gaudreau isn’t the better in zone defender but he gets the edge overall.

what evidence do you have the Florida inflate Huberdeau's takeaway stats?

 

[RapidKnight]

what evidence do you have the Florida inflate Huberdeau's takeaway stats?

Data comparing home & away takeaways:

Most corrupted home takeaway stats

 

[Dion TheFluff]

hmm I think Rantanen should have gone here but I guess I could vote for him in the next one...