Salary Cap: HFB Penguins: More Kessel Threads than You Can Shake a Hotdog at.

[BigBenSF*]

I'd argue the goal is to surpress goals, not shots, and he's solid at that.

Sutter has very little control over if a puck is saved by Fleury or if it isn't. That's up to Fleury. Patrice Bergeron improved in CA60 last year, but his GA60 skyrocketed, almost entirely because Tuukka Rask couldn't save a shot when he was on the ice. It's not Patrice Bergeron's fault. However, if his CA60 had risen by the same amount that his GA60 had, it would be a different story.

 

[Boocock]

Sutter has very little control over if a puck is saved by Fleury or if it isn't. That's up to Fleury. Patrice Bergeron improved in CA60 last year, but his GA60 skyrocketed, almost entirely because Tuukka Rask couldn't save a shot when he was on the ice. It's not Patrice Bergeron's fault. However, if his CA60 had risen by the same amount that his GA60 had, it would be a different story.

If that's the case, then why does Sutter have a positive GA60 impact on every member of the team but Letang and Maatta?

 

[mpp9]

Sutter has very little control over if a puck is saved by Fleury or if it isn't. That's up to Fleury. Patrice Bergeron improved in CA60 last year, but his GA60 skyrocketed, almost entirely because Tuukka Rask couldn't save a shot when he was on the ice. It's not Patrice Bergeron's fault. However, if his CA60 had risen by the same amount that his GA60 had, it would be a different story.

He doesn't control what Fleury does, but he can control the quality of the shots against to an extent.

 

[BigBenSF*]

If that's the case, then why does Sutter have a positive GA60 impact on every member of the team but Letang and Maatta?

Probably because the alternative linemates are Malkin (who's worse defensively) and Lapierre (whose sample size would be small enough to amount any impact to just luck).

 

[plaidchuck]

Ah advanced stats. Sometimes they net you a 40.goal scorer for peanuts, other times they net you.ben lovejoy.

 

[DoktorZaius]

Ah advanced stats. Sometimes they net you a 40.goal scorer for peanuts, other times they net you.ben lovejoy.

The Lovejoy trade was because people in the front office hated SD. There's no way Lovejoy has better fancy stats than Despres.

 

[Boocock]

The Lovejoy trade was because people in the front office hated SD. There's no way Lovejoy has better fancy stats than Despres.

At best it was a toss up that could mostly be attributed to D partners (Fowler versus Scuderi).

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDo]

The Lovejoy trade was because people in the front office hated SD. There's no way Lovejoy has better fancy stats than Despres.

Is there a story behind the hate? Is it the poker?

 

[BigBenSF*]

Do Lovejoy haters sometimes think that their disdain for Lovejoy's play may have been due to confirmation bias on their preexisting views of Lovejoy in addition to the circumstances of his arrival? He's a decent 4/5, which the spot that he'll probably be inserted next year. He's not Scuderi-level.

 

[Boocock]

Probably because the alternative linemates are Malkin (who's worse defensively) and Lapierre (whose sample size would be small enough to amount any impact to just luck).

That explanation isn't strong enough to discount his strong defensive abilities. Can you explain why he has the best 5v5 GA60 of any center in the league?

 

[DoktorZaius]

Do Lovejoy haters sometimes think that their disdain for Lovejoy's play may have been due to confirmation bias on their preexisting views of Lovejoy in addition to the circumstances of his arrival? He's a decent 4/5, which the spot that he'll probably be inserted next year. He's not Scuderi-level.

He's better than Scuderi, but that's an extremely low bar. Decent 4/5 is pushing it based on what he showed in the playoffs.

 

[realityis]

https://www.hockeyscap.com/armchair-gm/team/14438

Ideas?

 

[Boocock]

He's better than Scuderi, but that's an extremely low bar. Decent 4/5 is pushing it based on what he showed in the playoffs.

He was not put in the position to succeed, which really exemplifies why the trade was so horrible (Despres performs best when given lots of ice time, and that was readily apparent during his time in junior). If Lovejoy were to play only the minutes that Despres played in Pittsburgh (15-18), as opposed to the minutes that we wanted Despres to play (21+), he'd be a much more effective player.

I don't think a Dumoulin - Lovejoy pairing might work out, if we're lucky.

 

[Coach Travis]

I was under the assumption that Kunitz had some kind of No-Trade/No-Movement Clause but according to HockeysCap, CapFriendly and GeneralFanager, he doesn't have anything marked down? I thought it said somewhere that he wouldn't wave to go to Toronto???

 

[BigBenSF*]

That explanation isn't strong enough to discount his strong defensive abilities. Can you explain why he has the best 5v5 GA60 of any center in the league?

He doesn't.

 

[billybudd]

Do Lovejoy haters sometimes think that their disdain for Lovejoy's play may have been due to confirmation bias on their preexisting views of Lovejoy in addition to the circumstances of his arrival? He's a decent 4/5, which the spot that he'll probably be inserted next year. He's not Scuderi-level.

Lovejoy could have been awesome and he was never going to get a fair shake from some people (this might seem like it's directed at IC, but it's not), much like Dupuis haters go to great lengths to complain about his "lack" of production for years then turn around and try to say the worse work (in a small sample) of David Perron or the ridiculously worse work of Beau Bennett are well above what should be expected from someone slotted into a similar role. Confirmation bias is definitely a thing and it factors in when anyone identifies Lovejoy as comparable to or worse than Scuds.

Lovejoy did play poorly for us, though, for whatever reason. I swear he was never like that when I caught an Anaheim game. Maybe he's just slow to get accustomed, like Gonchar. At least, I hope that's what it is and not some East-West thing or that his quality play with the Ducks was just some (fluke)/(Boudreau's a misunderstood genius thing).

 

[EVGENIMERLIN]

An Ottawa fan was willing to do Sutter for Smith and Chiasson.

I wish that fan was Ottawa's GM

 

[BigBenSF*]

Lovejoy could have been awesome and he was never going to get a fair shake from some people (this might seem like it's directed at IC, but it's not), much like Dupuis haters go to great lengths to complain about his "lack" of production for years then turn around and try to say the worse work (in a small sample) of David Perron or the ridiculously worse work of Beau Bennett are well above what should be expected from someone slotted into a similar role. Confirmation bias is definitely a thing and it factors in when anyone identifies Lovejoy as comparable to or worse than Scuds.

Lovejoy did play poorly for us, though, for whatever reason. I swear he was never like that when I caught an Anaheim game. Maybe he's just slow to get accustomed, like Gonchar. At least, I hope that's what it is and not some East-West thing or that his quality play with the Ducks was just some (fluke)/(Boudreau's a misunderstood genius thing).

I also thought that Lovejoy didn't play great, but I'll admit now that I put him under a much larger microscope than most other players, and to a certain extent rooted for him to do badly. Generally, incoming players in the middle of the season don't play very well for this team (Neal, Iginla, Perron to a certain extent, and Lovejoy). I wouldn't be out on Lovejoy until he really lets the team down this season.

 

[eXile59]

Do Lovejoy haters sometimes think that their disdain for Lovejoy's play may have been due to confirmation bias on their preexisting views of Lovejoy in addition to the circumstances of his arrival? He's a decent 4/5, which the spot that he'll probably be inserted next year. He's not Scuderi-level.

People hate Lovejoy because he is a bad hockey player. He is in no way a 4/5. There is a reason the Ducks were benching him during the season before they added all that help at the deadline.

He's a 6/7 like he was when he left. He played with Fowler some and made him look a little better but the playoffs showed that you are most likely going to lose a game if Ben Lovejoy plays 20 minutes.

And people don't hate him. They just see him for what he is.

 

[BigBenSF*]

re: Sutter's defensive abilities, even if his GA60 is very good, his GF60 is so horrendous that it completely offsets his defensive play and results in him being an average fourth liner. He is an offensive black hole, and he cannot be kept on the team or he will bring his linemates down.

 

[Boocock]

He doesn't.

Do you believe I'd make a claim like that w/o getting the stats to back it up?

Top GA60 stats of players who went over 750 minutes last year:
1. Ruutu
2. Dan Boyle
3. Prust
4. Ben Smith
5. Pacioretty
6. Winnik (winger before center)
7. Hammer
8. Trevor Lewis (if you want to call him a center, you can - but I'd argue that's debatable. His best moments were on a line w/ Kopitar and Gaborik last year, by all accounts. If someone who's watched the Kings has a different take, I'll gladly admit my fault - but I don't see him as a center or wing so much as a forward.)
9. Ian Cole
10. Kreider
11. Beaulieu
12. Weise
13. Methot
14. Wheller
15. McNabb
16. Sutter (1st full-time center)
17. Stepan (2nd full-time center)

So if you want to call Trevor Lewis a center (it's a lot like Tyler Kennedy being listed as a center for so many years) and say that his 5v5 GA60 is lower, then go ahead.

 

[Boocock]

re: Sutter's defensive abilities, even if his GA60 is very good, his GF60 is so horrendous that it completely offsets his defensive play and results in him being an average fourth liner. He is an offensive black hole, and he cannot be kept on the team or he will bring his linemates down.

Well yes, and that's why you trade him. I'm just talking about what might be of value to other teams, and hockey squads that want to build their team around preventing shots from going into the net might be interested in what Brandon Sutter brings to the table. I'd much rather have Matthias and Fehr in the bottom six. Jeez, if Kunitz can drive possession will w/ Sutter (and yes, he did - 54.7% CF), then imagine what he could do w/ one of those two instead.

 

[BigBenSF*]

People hate Lovejoy because he is a bad hockey player. He is in no way a 4/5. There is a reason the Ducks were benching him during the season before they added all that help at the deadline.

He's a 6/7 like he was when he left. He played with Fowler some and made him look a little better but the playoffs showed that you are most likely going to lose a game if Ben Lovejoy plays 20 minutes.

And people don't hate him. They just see him for what he is.

The Ducks benched Despres during the season as well... neither can be justified being benched over Stoner.

Ducks fans don't think that Lovejoy is a 6/7. Objective statistics don't think that Lovejoy is a 6/7.

 

[Fordy]

lovejoy is trash i don't care what it is that makes me think it, it's true

 

[BigBenSF*]

Do you believe I'd make a claim like that w/o getting the stats to back it up?

Top GA60 stats of players who went over 750 minutes last year:
1. Ruutu
2. Dan Boyle
3. Prust
4. Ben Smith
5. Pacioretty
6. Winnik (winger before center)
7. Hammer
8. Trevor Lewis (if you want to call him a center, you can - but I'd argue that's debatable. His best moments were on a line w/ Kopitar and Gaborik last year, by all accounts. If someone who's watched the Kings has a different take, I'll gladly admit my fault - but I don't see him as a center or wing so much as a forward.)
9. Ian Cole
10. Kreider
11. Beaulieu
12. Weise
13. Methot
14. Wheller
15. McNabb
16. Sutter (1st full-time center)
17. Stepan (2nd full-time center)

So if you want to call Trevor Lewis a center (it's a lot like Tyler Kennedy being listed as a center for so many years) and say that his 5v5 GA60 is lower, then go ahead.

Ben Smith played center for the Sharks last year and war-on-ice has Stepan's GA60 being less than Sutter's. It's close, but he's not #1.