HF Spring 2007 Organizational rankings (1-15)

[theone17]

Boyle and Tukonen will most likely spend the majority of the season in Manchester unless they come to camp and blow everyone away. Tukonen still needs to find his consistency and stay away from the injury bug. Boyle is going to need part of the season to get fully accustomed to the pro level. And thats not a bad thing. Good to have this deep of a prospect pool just sucks to have to watch crappy play to get it.

true but, i rather have Boyle and Tukonen play on the Kings then Willsie and Thornton any day of the week

 

[Little Nilan]

...And try to guess who is widely considered the next possible Kari Lehtonen after a dominant year in Finland.

How is Lehtonen a good comparison, he's done nothing in the NHL. He's been average at best.

 

[heygarebear]

Address what, your observation that the Oilers prospects were overated 4 years ago? Well good on you Sherlock, very observant. Some prospects don't work out, and several of those have not. Did you notice that only JDD & Mikhnov were left, and quite low on the depth chart? The others were traded for assets while they were still rated highly. I don't care if Woywitka & Lynch are busts, they're still worth 2/3s of Pronger (along with Brewer of course).



Oh I see, you want proof of a good draft 2-4 years later. You just keep on judging drafts 2-4 years out, and we'll keep on ignoring you.



Hemsky= whoop de do?? Very objective and non-trolling.

All of the above are consistant only in that they are totally irrelevant to the current Oiler ranking. Tell me Mr. Mastodon, how does your post have anything at all to do with the ranking of the '07 Oil?

just to point out.. Woywitka is far from a bust.. he's been great with the Blues.. should definitely make the team next year.

 

[Guy Flaming]

Since 2001 Draft, total # of players drafted that have played at least 1 game in the NHL:

Edmonton: 16
New Jersey: 8

This isn't to argue that NJ is a bad drafting team at all because clearly their not. A mix of top quality players, late round diamond in the rough guys and plenty of busts for both teams. Edmonton definitely had a lot more picks though as they had traded a lot of NHL players for picks in the early part of the decade.

But if a 7th rounder makes it for any team I'd suggest that's good development. Edmonton has Kyle Brodziak and Mathieu Roy, both 7th rounders in 2003, that are scratching the surface of the NHL.

I believe the Oilers team that made the finals last year was slightly over 50% drafted or 20-year-old free agent signings (like Marc-Andre Bergeron). Edmonton's taken a beating over the years for horrible drafting and with their record of 1st round misses through the 90's, it's hard to argue, but they've done very well over all after the opening round.

Just my opinion.

 

[MrMastodonFarm*]

Since 2001 Draft, total # of players drafted that have played at least 1 game in the NHL:

Edmonton: 16
New Jersey: 8

That's really shameful, atleast one NHL game.. come on. Florida has had 14, the Blue Jackets 13.. what the heck does that tell you? Nothing.

But if a 7th rounder makes it for any team I'd suggest that's good development. Edmonton has Kyle Brodziak and Mathieu Roy, both 7th rounders in 2003, that are scratching the surface of the NHL.

Yeah that would be, but don't count your chickens before they're hatched. It's embaressing.

 

[Guy Flaming]

That's really shameful, atleast one NHL game.. come on. Florida has had 14, the Blue Jackets 13.. what the heck does that tell you? Nothing.

It tells me that FLA and CLB have had more drafted players dress than NJ but not as many as EDM. What's shameful about that? What would be a number of games played that is better for you?

25 Games?

EDM: 9
NJ: 4 (I think)

82 Games?

EDM: 4
NJ: 2

Pretty much double all the way down the list.

Yeah that would be, but don't count your chickens before they're hatched. It's embaressing.

How is that before they've hatched? They've played in the NHL and were 7th round picks. Played. Past tense. Are they established NHL players? Of course not, that's why I said 'scratching the surface'.

And they're not my chickens, I don't work for the team.

 

[FacelessButcher]

Sorry if you're offended.

The Oilers had a reputation of not being able to draft will and develop just as poorly. Over the past 2-4 years Oiler fans have been saying how since Lowe etc took over they've gotten better at this, but where is the proof?

Smid, Torres, Stoll? All drafted by other organizations where their development was already taking place. I'll give you partial credit for Stoll however, as he didn't spend one game in the Flames farm system.

Hemsky, Horcoff, Pisani.. whoop de do?

We all heard about the Oilers prospects back in 2003/2004, they had Jani Rita, Alexi Mikhnov, Jesse Niinimaki, Doug Lynch, Jeff Woywitka, Jeff Drouin-Delariaus, etc etc etc

Now there is a new batch to over-hype.

I think it's time a team like the Devils, who develop players get the benefit of the doubt over teams like the Oilers, who, until they PROVE they can, not just fan wanting, to do.

I do still have my own questions and skepticism about Oiler drafting and development particularly in regards to top end talent, but I have no doubt we have improved under the Lowe and Pendengrast regime over the Sather and Frasier regime I know this is the basis of much of your arguement, I just don't feel like digging into at depth at the moment.

So I'll address some of our crappy over-hyped 2003-04 prospects:

Top 20 from a Guy Flaming article on Oct 10, 2003 comments are my own -

1. Jeff Deslauriers - clock is ticking on him, NHL backup if were lucky
2. Jani Rita - played some games, no NHL success, back in Finland
3. Jarret Stoll - established NHL player
4. Raffi Torres - established NHL player
5. Jessi Niinimaki - bust
6. Marc-Antoine Pouliot - yet to be determined made some strides to cementing himself an NHL job
7. Alexei Mikhnov - most likely a bust
8. Tony Salmelainen - good enough to land us Spacek and played some games for Chicago this year
9. Marc-Andre Bergeron - looks to have a long career ahead of him on 3rd pair or as depth
10. Doug Lynch - bust
11. Matt Greene - looks to be NHL established, but has experienced some ups and downs in development
12. Colin McDonald - yet to be determined hasn't demonstrated much scoring ability in College
13. Bobby Allen - Depth defenseman
14. Brad Winchester - on the fringe between AHL/NHL
15. Kyle Brodziak - on the fringe between AHL/NHL
16. Mishail Joukov - yet to be determined, said to be near NHL ready in paper haven't seen much of him
17. Dwight Helminen - traded to Rangers as small part of Nedved deal, not really sure on progress
18. Fredrik Johansson - yet to be determined, I think he's coming to AHL this year
19. Michael Svensk - no clue (assuming bust)
20. Ed Caron - retired

Lot of busts and maybe's in there but you can say that about a lot of teams top 20 lists, we still had a good amount turn out.

 

[JiriHrdina]

Since 2001 Draft, total # of players drafted that have played at least 1 game in the NHL:

Edmonton: 16
New Jersey: 8
.

Seems to me that the amount of players drafted that play at least 1 game is a factor of many things, not just how well the team has drafted/developed players.

If a team has a shallower talent pool at the NHL level they will be forced to debut players earlier. Similarily if a team encounters severe injuries they will bring up kids to fill the gaps.

Teams that are deeper at the NHL level and avoid injuries will have a smaller number.

Over the long-term the figures may amount to something, but in general given Edmonton's unreal injury sitaution down the stretch, I have to wonder how much that played into the above.

 

[montreal]

The Habs have had 13 picks from '01-'05 drafts play at least 1 game but that number goes up if you count players drafted from other teams, as Huet and Garth Murray were drafted in '01 (traded for drafted prospects Garon/Balej), and Yann Danis was a FA in '04 . They have had 8 play 25 games, 9 if you count Halak who played some 17 but that's a lot for a 3rd string goalie. They have had 6 of their own picks play 82 games.

That said I think you have to look at the teams on a case by case basis. The Habs started a youth movement last year and carried it over to this year, while other teams that are in better shape to contend likely wouldn't want to insert so many rookies each year.

Last year the Habs had five rookies in Higgins, Perezhogin, Plekanec, Streit and Murray as full time regulars, plus Ryder/Komisarek were in their 2nd full year. This year they had Latendresse, Lapierre, Kostitsyn and Halak as rookies. Next year they might add a few more rookies like Chipchura, Grabovski, O'Byrne, Ferland, Milroy, Cote. But if they were more contenders, I don't think they would be playing so many young and inexperienced guys. I'm sure the salary cap comes into play since the young players are mostly cheap aside from ones getting the rookie max.

 

[State of Hockey]

The problem is, is Irmen is projected to be a third line center, second might be a stretch and is really a dime a dozen player. Madsen is a boom or bust prospect. You look at someone like Foy. Tore up the Q but did squat in the AHL and NHL and he had size. Clutterbuck and Fiala are questionable prospects too. Fiala has had to battle back from injuries and Clutterbuck is similar to Irmen.

Pouliot had a very disappointing season last year in the AHL. He kind of coasted and is looking to be like a major project to work with. His season in the O is looking more and more like the player he'll be like in the AHL/NHL. A lot of talent but not enough to put it all together.

Sheppard is by far our best prospect.

And I've been proven right about our thin goaltending depth (a major problem for Houston this year. They had like 4 goaltenders, two veterans, two young guys) and none of them actually worked out. And we need defensive help still but we have no one in the AHL to really call up to shore up our defense.

Nothing in life is positive, is it?

Minnesota at #7 is very reasonable. They have a likely franchise goalie waiting in the wings and arguably the deepest forward prospect corps in the league. Only a weak defensive group keeps Minnesota from the top-5.

Irmen - Dime a dozen? Not even close. Teams love having 3rd line players that play a strong 2-way game with lots of energy every night. The Wild need an Irmen for the years to come.

Madsen might be one of the biggest steals in the 2005 draft. He's looking more like "boom" the further he progresses. A great season in the Q is a positive sign.

True, The Foys of the world do exist, but EVERY team has them. Even guys listed in the top-5 for their respective team might be a Foy. That's why they're PROSPECTS.

Clutterbuck and Fiala are great 2nd-tier prospects. In case you haven't noticed, they're in reality around 10th-best of Wild prospects. If guys like this are around 10th, that's a deep prospect pool.

Pouliot - No need to write him off. He no doubt has a ton of talent, and he hasn't even gotten a good chance in the NHL to show what he can do. #4 overall picks rarely become busts once they get their chance. We have no reason to positively say he WON'T get it together. Some guys just don't produce in the AHL but take off in the NHL.

Sheppard - Not only is he our best offensive prospect, but he is also looking better than many teams' best prospect.

True, we don't have any goalies after Harding, but do we honestly want another goalie just so he can rot in the minors? Manny Fernandez or Niklas Backstrom is on the way out to make room for Harding, so do we really need another franchise goalie? No.

Our defense does look weak, but who would have thought last year that Burns would become the player he is now? Many defensemen will just "get it" all of a sudden. Guys like Belle, Thelen (if we keep him), and Stoner all have the ability to do what Burns did. Minnesota deserves the #7 spot.

 

[thestonedkoala]

Well it's questionable to call deep. As I said before in the NHL, it's a different story since we got a few graduated prospects (Bouchard, Koivu, and Gaborik) who are young but aren't considered prospects anymore.

Irmen is typically a player you find in every organization. A high-energy, hitter that can chip in a few points. We had him in Veilleux (Veilleux had a good season in the Q and in the AHL). Veilleux has even dropped the gloves a few times. Irmen is a step up but he is a proto-typical player you want a 3rd rounder to be as.

Madsen is questionable. A lot of guys have great seasons in the Q and turn out to be nothing. A year in the AHL will prove if he is good or if he is just another major junior player. I'm holding out my reservations on Madsen. I hope he turns out to be a great player but I also understand if he doesn't.

Clutterbuck and Fiala 10th best? Who the hell are 8-10? Jones? Walker? Sheppard, Pouliot, Irmen, Voloshenko, Clutterbuck, and Fiala. Fiala has had injury problems and Clutterbuck as shown is similar to Irmen in that he plays a gritty, two way type of game.

The problem with Pouliot is he hasn't shown ANYTHING at all. He was called out last year in practice and simply coasted after coming back from an injury. BTW:

1995-2005, here are the 4th overall picks: Chad Kilger, Alexandre Volchkov, Roberto Luongo, Bryan Allen, Pavel Brendl, Rostislav Klesla, Stephen Weiss, Joni Pitkanen, Nikolai Zherdev, Andrew Ladd...Some of them haven't had a chance, some of them have, but it's a toss up LIKE EVERY OTHER DRAFT PICK. There isn't more or less a chance a prospect is going to be a bust because of where he is picked. In fact there is a bigger chance he'll end up a bust because he ends up a 3rd liner than the franchise forward you wanted.

That makes no sense at all. If Fernandez or Backstrom is on his way out...Uh that makes our third goaltender...Exactly who? Steve Shields! Horray!

 

[Habs Icing]

I dont get why Montreal is in the 2 spot and the Blackhawks 3...
Toews,Barker,Blunden,Bolland,Skille,Makarov,Wisnewski,Crawford,Brouwer,Davis...and this is a worst propect pool than Montreal?...sorry but i dont get it

As all tax auditers and cops will tell you, ignorance is not an excuse.

Now I'm not saying that the Habs are hands down number two. What I am saying is that the top 5 are pretty close and its a judgement call. I could see someone making a case for either team's prospects but to come out and flatly state that you don't get it, is just plain homerism and ignorance ofthe other team's pool.