Has Messi surpassed Gretzky/Jordan and others as the GOAT for all sports?

[AcerComputer]

If we purely talk greatest athlete in my view, I know it's very controversial, but I'd go Lance Armstrong. I know he doped, but it was the norm in his era. Winning that many consecutive Tour de France (I think 6 or 7) is incredible. I think pro cycling is by far the hardest sport in the world. It's the only sport in which suffering is that prevalent on a day to day basis. So in my view he's the greatest athlete ever.

I would maybe agree if he didn't cheat. He is perhaps the greatest cheater of all-time.

Off the board pick for me, but I think Tiger Woods is the greatest athlete of all time.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

Messi is the greatest team sport athlete of all time. There is zero question of this, IMO. Gretzky-level dominance, longevity even surpassing Gretzky (he's still probably the best player in the world at 35), silverware beyond Gretzky's, and in a far bigger sport.

There are a few athletes from solo sports - Bolt, Serena Williams, Muhammad Ali, and Woods are the four who come to mind - that can duke it out with him for GOAT of GOATs status.

EDIT: forgot one - Wayde van Niekerk doesn't have the longevity of a Bolt in track, but running sub-10, sub-20, and sub-44 in the 100, 200, 400 is absolutely bonkers. His 400 WR run in 2016 (from lane 8), breaking a record that had stood for two decades and that had been commonly thought as the most secure record in T&F, might be the greatest sporting event I had watched in my life until yesterday's WC final.

 

[Rexor]

Messi/Ronaldo.... I think its still a debate, people were saying Ronaldo was the GOAT just 2 years ago. Mbappe will pass both barring injury, though

Nah, people who ever believed C. Ronaldo was better than Messi are deluded, and I actually hated Barca in Messi's prime. Ronaldo is a better athlete of course but Messi has been a technically superior player from day one, with significantly better ball skills, a much better playmaker, and MUCH smarter overall. This is like comparing Ovechkin and Mario Lemieux.

Mbappé has some gaudy numbers but he's playing in an inferior league, and his reputation owes a lot to two short tournaments. He needs to move to Spain or England as soon as possible. He's a very unique talent for sure but I'm feeling quite comfortable to say that Messi was clearly a better player at the age of 23.

There are two things that always stood out about Messi for me. First, he not only exceeded the benchmarks set by all-time great forwards before him; he simply tore them apart. 50 goals in a single La Liga season in 2012 is incredible, and even more so for a player who wasn't deployed as a pure goal scorer, as he was playing in a deeper role and was consistently creating a ton of scoring chances for his teammates.

Second, he's always been a player that seemingly never makes mistakes like flawed passes, failed dribbles, botched attempts at a shot, bad first touches etc. There are players like this but those are used in more defensive roles, such as deep-lying midfielders or central defenders. It's something else for a purely offensive player like Messi though, who (given the nature of position) has consistently been taking a lot of risky plays. Especially in his (very long) prime, it looked like he was ALWAYS making the right decision, with the ball or without it. His technical ability and sense of the game were out of this planet, even compared to other all-time greats.

 

[bobholly39]

In my opinion, nobody dominated their sport as much as Gretzky. He literally made "video game stats" out of the record book, no one else came close to being that.

It's true that Gretzky didn't win 6 Finals MVP like Jordan - but at the same time hockey is a lot more a team sport where it's harder for 1 athlete to influence a championship - and having said that, Gretzky is also the greatest playoff performer ever.

Hockey is nowhere near the top in terms of the sports world, so if you want to knock Gretzky down for that, fine. But I do think I have him #1 vs the athletes listed here.

That's of course looking at team sports. Individual competition - I wonder how high someone like Usain Bolt ranks?

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

People were saying Ronaldo was the GOAT during the Euros like 2 years ago.

Gretzky is the greatest compared to his peers. Not really that close.

 

[Nicko999]

You just out-niched hockey with clay court 5 set matches. Congrats.

Tennis is the second most popular sport on earth after soccer/football and clay is part of the season where every player plays on it so it's not as niche as you would think.

It seems weird to single out clay.

Don't think any other "GOAT" has such requirements.

Not claiming any GOAT status or anything. Just pointing out the dominance.

 

[Rexor]

People were saying Ronaldo was the GOAT during the Euros like 2 years ago.

Gretzky is the greatest compared to his peers. Not really that close.

Lemieux is much closer to Gretzky than Ronaldo is to Messi.

 

[Sweetpotato]

I grew up a Messi fan, I played soccer in my teen years and watched his first Barca game as a teenager. This win cements him as the greatest soccer player of all time.

The dominance from Gretzky and Brady over shadow Messi's, while being the best in his sport he hasn't separated himself from Pele, Maradona and Ronaldo like the other 2 have from their peers.

 

[um]

Lemieux is much closer to Gretzky than Ronaldo is to Messi.

Gretzky started his career with 8 straight MVPs.

I don't think Lemieux ever came close to Gretzky. He is a fun should-woulda-coulda player though.

 

[MightySelanne8]

For me, its Usain Bolt or MJ. Bolts feats will never be replicated, back to back to back olympic champion on both 100 and 200 meters is just absolutely insane. His WRs will be broken eventually, with the new shoes and whatnot

 

[Midnight Judges]

Jordan might not even be the greatest player in his own sport anymore. Lebron James's resume is more impressive at this point.

 

[amnesiac]

What are you talking about with Jordan? Did you mean the years he played baseball?

Yes

 

[um]

No, athletes in different sports can't be compared to each other.

sorry, I'm glad you cleared up the rules on what people are allowed to talk about.

Once again. One million people play hockey and those players are the ones who has rich enough parents to support their kids doing so which narrow down the talent pool more than it already has. 260 million people play soccer, in a sport everyone has acesss too which makes the talent pool even more competitive among those hundreds of millions.

This makes it hundreds of times harder to become the goat in football than in ice hockey by sheer numbers. And then we don't take into consideration that hockey is only for those who can afford it. Perhaps there are better player than Gretzky who didn't have the means enough to play. Everyone can play football which remotes that doubt.

It baffles to me that some of you think they are even comparable to any degree. It's like I walked into a forum among the community of the wrong turn movie, if anybody has seen it, not a good one btw.

Realize this sport of hockey is like badminton in the eyes of the rest of the world or female volleyball.

Sure I love it but it is what it is.

no shit sherlock.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Gretzky started his career with 8 straight MVPs.

I don't think Lemieux ever came close to Gretzky. He is a fun should-woulda-coulda player though.

There was definitely a period of time where it was a common opinion that Lemieux was a better hockey player than Gretzky.

 

[dire wolf]

I think there's an argument that can be made for Messi among team sports. As for athletic dominance however it's very difficult to put him ahead of Michael Phelps. For comparison Phelps has 23 Olympic gold medals, the next closest person has 9. He has 28 medals in total with the next closest having 18, and 3rd place being 12.

There's also a guy in Cricket named Sir Donald Bradman. I don't know a ton about Cricket personally, but I did see a video of someone explaining his dominance of the sport, and it's actually unreal how much better he was than his peers.

You could make the argument that Swimming and Cricket are more niche sports so the dominance is not as impressive, but as a whole their level of dominance is still ahead of Messi without regard to popularity.

Not to take anything away from Phelps, but the opportunity for multiple medals in swimming is greater than every other sport. There is no way to win multiple medals in many of the sports. And in some other sports, maybe you can only win 2 or 3 per Olympics.

The more I think about this question, the more I realize that it's simply not possible to answer it. I'm not sure why people feel compelled to compare apples and oranges.

I think credible arguments can be made for most of the names in this thread. What about Jim Thorpe? Bo Jackson? They never dominated 1 particular sport like Gretzky, but they were multi-sport athletes at the highest levels. That being said, I will not entertain any argument that a golfer can be the world's greatest athlete. Also, if you want to limit it to dominance over one sport, Secretariat is a good choice. That horse still has the fastest times in all 3 Triple Crown races.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Some say Donald Bradman is the most dominant, his stats are way above his competitors.

Don Bradman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This.

Statistically speaking, Bradman was the most dominant player of his sport out of any other player and their sport.

 

[Bounces R Way]

Evel Knievel the true GOAT among GOATs

 

[tarheelhockey]

Evel Knievel the true GOAT among GOATs

He's so far beyond the competition that people don't even know who they are

 

[dire wolf]

For me, its Usain Bolt or MJ. Bolts feats will never be replicated, back to back to back olympic champion on both 100 and 200 meters is just absolutely insane. His WRs will be broken eventually, with the new shoes and whatnot

Yes - but for me, it's too specific of a sport. He's the best athlete in the world for 9 seconds in a straight line.

I always thought Eric Heiden should get more love. He won 5 gold medals in speed skating at the 1980 Lake Placid Olympics in the 500m, 1000m, 1500m, 5000m, and 10,000m. That's like a track athlete winning the 100, 200, 400, 5k and 10k. He also set 15 world records in his career. The only problem is that speed skating is even more of niche sport than hockey. On the other hand, Heiden then shifted to cycling, winning a few races, completing the Giro D'Italia, and was instrumental in growing professional cycling in the U.S. To put a cherry on top, he got a medical degree from Stanford is a successful orthopedic surgeon. He is in the U.S. Olympic Hall of Fame, the Wisconsin Athletic Hall of Fame and the U.S. Cycling HOF.

EDIT: Alex Honnold's solo free climb of El Capitan has been called by some the greatest single athletic achievement of all time. I've only rock climbed a few times, so I'm in no position to judge this, but I believe it. It requires strength, endurance, agility, problem-solving skills and massive cojones. One mistake and you're literally dead.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Jordan is the GOAT of GOATs. Soccer is boring.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Gretzky
Messi
Jordan

I know people don't want to hear this but I think the GOAT at soccer is kind of at the top by default.

Well over a billion people watched that game yesterday.

It's a talent pool and a sphere of influence that no other sport touches.

Shouldn’t matter.

Cricket is only popular in like 5 countries , even more niche than hockey (sure raw numbers are high but as far as reach) but that doesn’t stop Bradman from being the most dominant athlete .

Messi is the greatest soccer player ever but not by enough.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Lemieux is much closer to Gretzky than Ronaldo is to Messi.

Lemieux is about a thousand + points and 2 cups behind Gretzky.

I’m a Barca/Messi guy but Ronaldo has 5 UEFA championships to Messi’s 4. Not to mention they have similar production. Messi slightly higher but I also think he had better teammates (Iniesta, Xavi, Suarez, Neymar, etc.). Messi is better but I actually think someone like Tom Brady is a better option for this poll as he’s just that much better than his peers.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

People were saying Ronaldo was the GOAT during the Euros like 2 years ago.

Gretzky is the greatest compared to his peers. Not really that close.

Always a bs argument , kind of like when people said MacKinnon was better than McDavid. M

 

[bobbyking]

wheres the everyone is on the same level option? I guess thinking is hard

 

[Aashir Mallik]

I always love how passionate people get over a completely unanswerable question. Trying to compare players from different sports is sort of silly

True lol, we here can barely compare hockey forwards to hockey defencemen to hockey goalies.