Hall for Larsson 1 Year Later

[BenedictGomez]

if you can work some anti-canada digs into the TaN, you'll have hit the thread trifecta

It's not "anti-Canada" to suggest that the Canadian hockey media has a strong bias towards Canadian players. That's about as controversial as calling the sky blue.


Frankly, for you to state that this is not true "suggests" that you dont spend much (or any) time reading or watching Canadian media.

Watch or read TSN, HNIC, CBC or a plethora of other Canadian sources, you'll figure it out with time.

 

[MartyOwns]

It's not "anti-Canada" to suggest that the Canadian hockey media has a strong bias towards Canadian players. That's about as controversial as calling the sky blue.


Frankly, for you to state that this is not true "suggests" that you dont spend much (or any) time reading or watching Canadian media.

Watch or read TSN, HNIC, CBC or a plethora of other Canadian sources, you'll figure it out with time.

i'm not saying that *some* canadian media outlets don't favor canadian players. some being the key word there. but to say people in canada called this trade robbery because they are canadian is absurd, even considering the source.

 

[Cheddabombs]

At least edit the title so Larsson is spelled correctly, it's driving me nuts

 

[BenedictGomez]

i'm not saying that *some* canadian media outlets don't favor canadian players. some being the key word there. but to say people in canada called this trade robbery because they are canadian is absurd, even considering the source.

To say much of the media favored a well-known & popular young Canadian player playing in a Canadian city over a less well-known non-Canadian player on a US team is "absurd", huh?

I really dont think you spend much time listening/watching Canadian sources, because if you did, you're understand just how much more attention and focus they spotlight & highlight Canadian born players. I couldn't care less that they do so, but as someone who spent 6 years of his life in a market with Canadian television, I can tell you it's just a fact. The Canadians view hockey with a patriotic eye and in a patriotic light and viewpoint, that just doesn't exist with Americans with any of our sports, not even baseball. It's a cultural thing, and you definitely should pick-up on it if you spend a lot of time in Canada or watching/reading their media.

 

[NJDevs26]

To say much of the media favored a well-known & popular young Canadian player playing in a Canadian city over a less well-known non-Canadian player on a US team is "absurd", huh?

Um yeah considering in this instance THEY'RE RIGHT about Hall having more value than Larsson and that has nothing to do with nationality? This isn't exactly the deal to point to an example of pro-Canadian player bias, when everyone outside of Canada thought we got the better end of this trade too. It's like using Steggy and company calling Crosby the best player in the NHL to show ROOT has a Pens bias. Which they do but that isn't exactly the thing you use to highlight the point.

 

[Bleedred]

I think most Canadian's also thought we won the trade.

It wasn't until a bunch of people started jumping the fence because of how good of a season the Oilers had.

Just like the Canadiens fans that made a quick dash for the Weber side, solely based off of how great the first few weeks of the season was for them, and how mediocre the Predators started off.

 

[devilsblood]

I know Jim is spinning the #'s over there as he often does in Larsson debates but....

Lar's was 2nd on team in d-men in terms of es toi. 7 minutes off the team lead.

Amongst d-men over 50 minutes his 4-5 relative CA is by far best on the squad at -4.06. did he play less then other guys? Yeah, 118 minutes compared to team leader at 149. Was he the PK anchor in year one? No, but he was absolutely part of the mix, and as noted his relative CA was excellent. Russell on the other hand was a pretty brutal +8 ca relative, but was 3 minutes off the team lead.


It looks like Russell and Sekera were the #1 PK unit, Lars Klefbom the #2 unit, though they both had there share.

What do we conclude when over 120ish minutes a guy is the best at limiting shots, but the puck goes in the net more? I find that a pretty hazy argument going strictly off #'s. Especially when in the previous 2 seasons in over 450 minutes Lar's on ice 4-5 save % was at about 91%.



The minutes disparity is really about the PP, which we all know is not Larsson's gig. Klefbom and Sekera were the only d-men on the team who received over 26 minutes of PP this season.

So not at all surprising Lars did not play PP. Kind of surprising he was not the top PK unit, though he did play a fair amount. A couple minutes less then Klefbom in terms of 5-5 toi.

And please, comparing Lars this season to Lovejoy?

None of this is to say we didn't win that trade, but man, can we at least try to be honest in the debate?

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

It's not "anti-Canada" to suggest that the Canadian hockey media has a strong bias towards Canadian players. That's about as controversial as calling the sky blue.


Frankly, for you to state that this is not true "suggests" that you dont spend much (or any) time reading or watching Canadian media.

Watch or read TSN, HNIC, CBC or a plethora of other Canadian sources, you'll figure it out with time.

You seem to be doing the opposite, hating on Canadian players for no good reason. Hall was the better piece in this trade, end of story. They probably have a bias cause they actually know wtf they're talking about, unlike ESPN or any other source outlet coming from south of the border. I'm certain "the usual suspects" were all over the Hall for Larsson deal, taking about half of their air time to discuss that deal and the Subban for Weber trade as well.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Um yeah considering in this instance THEY'RE RIGHT about Hall having more value than Larsson and that has nothing to do with nationality?

Nobody is disputing that.

But if you read the articles at the time of the trade they were laughingly APOPLECTIC about it.

I'm not sure I can recall another instance of exaggeration and ridiculous dramatization over this being the greatest fleecing in the history of the NHL. The writing was absurd. Is Hall better than Larsson? Yes. Absolutely. But was this the equivalent of trading a 25 year old Wayne Gretzky for a 35 year old enforcer out on medical leave with his 6th concussion? No. The articles were almost comedic. People calling for Chiarelli's firing over the Hall trade etc.. Yeah, the Devils got the better of the trade, but the Oilers ALSO improved their defense with a very young, very talented NHL defenseman who will be on their blueline for YEARS.

There was no, "robbery of the century" here, and all that (considerable) media fuss was a joke.

I know Jim is spinning the #'s over there as he often does in Larsson debates but....

Maybe a bit, but I did find it pretty surprising that McLellan uses AL on the PK so little. That's usually where your better D-men play, and I dont really have a logical explanation why Larsson was used so little on the PK by the Oilers. The Devils used him on the PK more than the Oilers did.

 

[devilsblood]

Well on the Devils, Lars and Greene were basically the only guys Heinse wanted to use.

Edm split the minutes up more, perhaps in an effort to limit Klefboms overall minutes, Sekera and Russell got more? I dunno, but the minutes of those 2 on both es and PK mirrored each others, and same for Klef and Lars. So in those situations coach wanted to keep those pairings together. But #'s looks like Russell was pretty brutal on the PK. You wanna say Sekera deserved more PK minutes then Lars? OK maybe, but Russell? Not seeing it.

 

[JimEIV]

Well on the Devils, Lars and Greene were basically the only guys Heinse wanted to use.

Edm split the minutes up more, perhaps in an effort to limit Klefboms overall minutes, Sekera and Russell got more? I dunno, but the minutes of those 2 on both es and PK mirrored each others, and same for Klef and Lars. So in those situations coach wanted to keep those pairings together. But #'s looks like Russell was pretty brutal on the PK. You wanna say Sekera deserved more PK minutes then Lars? OK maybe, but Russell? Not seeing it.

They went with the better skaters in every special instance...3v3, 4v5, 4v4, 5v4...

Larsson comes in as the 4th (or worse) Dman in every situation other than 5v5...And 5v5 in Average TOI he actually comes in 3rd behind Klefbom and Russell...Which goes to my original point that brought us down this rabbit hole...He is a #4.

 

[devilsblood]

They went with the better skaters in every special instance...3v3, 4v5, 4v4, 5v4...

Larsson comes in as the 4th (or worse) Dman in every situation other than 5v5...And 5v5 in Average TOI he actually comes in 3rd behind Klefbom and Russell...Which goes to my original point that brought us down this rabbit hole...He is a #4.

ES he was 2nd on team in toi, literally 7 minutes behind the team leader. Overall he was 3rd on team in TOI. But somehow he's a 4?

Now, why coach used Russell more on the PK, when #'s suggest Lars was far superior? Again I suspect they wanted to keep the pairings together.

But why are you using TOI anyway? By that measure Lovejoy was better then Sev's. I know you don't want to make that argument.

 

[JimEIV]

There's no question the coaching staff trusted Lovejoy more than Severson in critical situation this past season not even debatable.

And you can definitely see that from situations and TOI

 

[Triumph]

Nobody is disputing that.

But if you read the articles at the time of the trade they were laughingly APOPLECTIC about it.

I'm not sure I can recall another instance of exaggeration and ridiculous dramatization over this being the greatest fleecing in the history of the NHL. The writing was absurd. Is Hall better than Larsson? Yes. Absolutely. But was this the equivalent of trading a 25 year old Wayne Gretzky for a 35 year old enforcer out on medical leave with his 6th concussion? No. The articles were almost comedic. People calling for Chiarelli's firing over the Hall trade etc.. Yeah, the Devils got the better of the trade, but the Oilers ALSO improved their defense with a very young, very talented NHL defenseman who will be on their blueline for YEARS.



There was no, "robbery of the century" here, and all that (considerable) media fuss was a joke.

I don't think you are remembering the media articles at the time of the trade very well. The media generally leans whichever way hockey people tell them to go. Throw in the fact that Edmonton threw dirt on Hall's grave and the Devils did no such thing to Larsson and there were a lot of 'this is the price you have to pay, it's an overpay but not a huge one'. Keep in mind also the media just voted Chiarelli as one of the GMs of the year.

 

[devilsblood]

There's no question the coaching staff trusted Lovejoy more than Severson in critical situation this past season not even debatable.

And you can definitely see that from situations and TOI

So Lovejoy is a #1 then? He's better then Sev's.

Or are there other things at play?

 

[BenedictGomez]

There's no question the coaching staff trusted Lovejoy more than Severson in critical situation this past season not even debatable.

Who wouldn't?

Severson has a terrible habit of momentarily forgetting he's playing defense in the NHL, and not offense. I get nervous too when Severson randomly decides to get all Oleg Tverdovsky'ish all over the ice for no apparent reason.

Hopefully this only occurs because he's 22 years old; there's hope when they're that young.

I don't think you are remembering the media articles at the time of the trade very well.

Yes, I do, they were completely over-the-top.

 

[Jets012]

Who wouldn't?

Severson has a terrible habit of momentarily forgetting he's playing defense in the NHL, and not offense. I get nervous too when Severson randomly decides to get all Oleg Tverdovsky'ish all over the ice for no apparent reason.

Hopefully this only occurs because he's 22 years old; there's hope when they're that young.



Yes, I do, they were completely over-the-top.

Trusting Lovejoy over Severson is a massive massive mistake and indicates that our coaching needs to have better player evaluation in the future.

 

[devilsblood]

I don't think you are remembering the media articles at the time of the trade very well. The media generally leans whichever way hockey people tell them to go. Throw in the fact that Edmonton threw dirt on Hall's grave and the Devils did no such thing to Larsson and there were a lot of 'this is the price you have to pay, it's an overpay but not a huge one'. Keep in mind also the media just voted Chiarelli as one of the GMs of the year.

I think the consensus at the time was Edm won the trade pretty big.

 

[devilsblood]

Trusting Lovejoy over Severson is a massive massive mistake and indicates that our coaching needs to have better player evaluation in the future.

I think it's more their method of development.

Severson played a lot for a 22 year. But at times you did have to question his focus, if not his effort. Lovejoy lacks skill, but by leaning on him, you are saying, this is the type of effort, the type of attention to detail that we expect.

It's a tangent, but like with Lars' limited pk minutes in edm, there are other factors at play more then simply "he is the best man for the job".

 

[JimEIV]

So Lovejoy is a #1 then? He's better then Sev's.

Or are there other things at play?

I just checked...

And Severson was ahead of Lovejoy barely but he was.

In ATOI 5v5

Severson play 1350:37 in 80 games
That's 16:88 average time on ice 5v5

Lovejoy played 1364:38 in 82 games
That's 16:64 average time on ice.

Greene played 1074:25 in 66 games
That's 16.28 average ice time

Pretty close all around.

We see the real difference is special teams.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Trusting Lovejoy over Severson is a massive massive mistake and indicates that our coaching needs to have better player evaluation in the future.

IMO, I dont think it was a matter of "trusting" Lovejoy, so much as believing Severson is irresponsible.

 

[JimEIV]

But I'm sure if you checked the quality of competition Lovejoy got tougher minutes.

 

[devilsblood]

I just checked...

And Severson was ahead of Lovejoy barely but he was.

In ATOI 5v5

Severson play 1350:37 in 80 games
That's 16:88 average time on ice 5v5

Lovejoy played 1364:38 in 82 games
That's 16:64 average time on ice.

Greene played 1074:25 in 66 games
That's 16.28 average ice time

Pretty close all around.

We see the real difference is special teams.

Does raise the question of: What makes a #1 d-man? Or 2-3-4? Is it predominantly es? How much do special teams play in?

Relevant to the shattenkirk discussion as well.

I think more often people put more value in PP because of the points. Where as PKr's are often thought to be bottom pair old school grenade handlers. The PKr's get little love.

But Lovejoy does fit that bill pretty well, and imo is a good PK player. His best attribute is dumping the puck down the ice. It's not a good play a lot of the time, but the perfect play on the PK.

 

[Icejoker]

Edmonton playoff , Larsson was nr 1 in TOI (1,19 more than McDavid) and also nr 1 in points by defenders

 

[Bleedred]

Edmonton playoff , Larsson was nr 1 in TOI (1,19 more than McDavid) and also nr 1 in points by defenders

Small sample sizes are fun.

How about when he was third in points by defenders on the team during the regular season? He scored almost a third of his regular season points in 66 fewer games in the playoffs. Larsson is not really a 0.5 PPG player like he was during the playoffs.

Bryce Salvador once scored 14 points in 24 playoff games and he was quite a bit worse offensively than Larsson.